New to All Grain - Batch Sparge question

I recently brewed my first all grain (IPA) and decided to simplify things a bit by batch sparging. After the 1st runnings (60 min) how long should I steep the 2nd and 3rd sparge? After putting my water in, I only let it sit ~15min. Just wondering if I should I have let is steep longer?

I ended up with a OG within my target range and about a 70% efficiency so I guess I can't complain too much. Just wondering if it could have been a little higher if I let it sit longer before pulling off the 2nd and 3rd.

It has about another week on the secondary fermentation before I'll get my first taste but the yeast seems to like it.

Thanks,
JT :beard:

You don't have to let the sparge steep or sit at all - the idea is that you're just rinsing more sugar out of the grains. I personally drain the first runnings, dump in several gallons of nearly-boiling water which I've pre-acidified (by adding a 1/4 tsp of acid) stir it like it's making me money, let it settle for a minute or two and then begin the vorlauf.

One caution: don't begin your vorlauf/draining by opening your valve wide open. Each time I've done that, I wind up with a semi-stuck sparge because the grain bed compacts.

If you're looking for efficiency, I would evaluate your crush and use super hot (acidified) sparge water. If you are willing and able, you can collect more runnings and boil more off, also.

I have tried to split my sparge into 2 equal amounts. It did not have any extra added benefit. I noticed no gain in efficiency numbers...just added extra time.
When you sparge, try to get as close as you can to 170* WITHOUT going over 170*, as it will extract tannins. Then allow to set for about 10 minutes...per the guidance in "HOW TO BREW".

For example...I drain my first runnings. Then sparge with 4 gallons(approx) that is 184*F. When it hits the mash grains, it cools a bit. I stir gently and give 3 minutes for the temp to settle...it usually reads 168-169* at this time. Cover and let it set for 10 minutes. Then vorlauf just like you did for 1st runnings.

As far as your numbers....are you using "beersmith"? Beersmith can be a little confusing as to how to correctly enter the info to get your "correct" eff numbers. You "may" be getting better numbers than you think. I get 80-81% every time I brew.

If I brew a cup of tea and add a teaspoon of sugar, do I need to let it sit for 15 minutes to dissolve the sugars? No, that just gives me lukewarm tea. Instead I dump the sugar in and stir for 15 seconds and the sugar is dissolved. Same goes for sparging, you don't need to wait if you stir and if you don't stir, your sugars won't dissolve much anyway.

Just stating what the book says, and what I do. Good enough?

This is an interesting thread. I have always used a single infusion batch sparge at ~170F for 15 min. with pretty good results. The idea of sparging twice was a new wrinkle, but after a quick re-visit to "How to Brew" I find that Palmer suggests it is a common way to do a batch sparge. The idea of not allowing the sparge water to sit for a period of time is also a new wrinkle to me. On the face of it, it does make sense. It will be interesting to see if anyone else weighs in on this and to hear what they have to say on this topic.

Definitely subbed! Cheers!

When I started AG, I batch sparged using hot water (~170 F), letting it settle ~10 mins, and barely opening the valve when vorlaufing.

After reading a lot of comments on this site, the last handful of batches I've switched. I use room-temperature water. I dump it in, stir like mad, vorlauf immediately, and then drain. I open the valve all the way for vorlauf.

The only effect has been that it takes way less time and effort.

judsonp said:

When I started AG, I batch sparged using hot water (~170 F), letting it settle ~10 mins, and barely opening the valve when vorlaufing.

After reading a lot of comments on this site, the last handful of batches I've switched. I use room-temperature water. I dump it in, stir like mad, vorlauf immediately, and then drain. I open the valve all the way for vorlauf.

The only effect has been that it takes way less time and effort.

Click to expand...

RE: room temp water. Don't forget that what you make up in not heating the sparge, you lose in heating it to boil.

In my setup the only reason to do multiple sparges is for larger volumes. If my tun can't hold enough to hit my pre-boil volume for whatever reason I'll do two sparges.
I started doing two, equal-volume sparges but each was around 1.5 gallons. Runnings took literally 2 minutes but heating took 20. Now a single sparge of 3-4 gallons takes 10 minutes (really pulling for every last drop!) and heating, with a better burner, takes 15 or less.
As to the tannins- I almost always get distracted and way overheat my sparge water to the 200°F range. Stirring gets me to 190°F or so, but by then I want to move along. I don't argue that tannins are extracted, just that my beer tasters and I don't detect them. Maybe it's not as easy to do as we think?
Oops, got sidetracked. I let my sparge sit for 15-20 minutes and stir when I strike it and before I begin the runnings. There's no reason for this time period other than personal comfort, and it allows me to prep my hop additions for the boil. Kyle

I have overshot my sparge temp as well. I simply scoop out 2-3 cups of the hot water and replace with cold tap water until in comes down to my target temp. Saves a lot more time rather than sitting and waiting.

As far as the 10-15 minutes thing is concerned...it's to help the grain bed rest again. The heavier solids sink to the bottom, and the lighter "mushy" stuff settles on top(as I'm sure most of you know and have seen). It is for clearer runnings, simply put.

gwapogorilla said:

Just stating what the book says, and what I do. Good enough?

Click to expand...

Yes, good enough. Palmer's book has some thing in it that aren't true or are just partially true. One of them is that temperatures over 170 will extract tannins. It's been found that the pH makes the difference and if your pH is correct you can sparge at boiling temps. Letting the sparge set for 10 minutes is what I would consider a partial truth. It will let the grain bed settle and that might get you clearer wort but the real goal is clear beer and it doesn't seem to matter if the wort is completely clear or so cloudy you can't see through it. You can get clear beer either way.

gwapogorilla said:

Just stating what the book says, and what I do. Good enough?

Click to expand...

Read this...www.dennybrew.com

I have batch sparged 455 batches and I've tried about everything that can be tried. I have found that the simplest technique is the best technique.

RM-MN said:

Yes, good enough. Palmer's book has some thing in it that aren't true or are just partially true. One of them is that temperatures over 170 will extract tannins. It's been found that the pH makes the difference and if your pH is correct you can sparge at boiling temps. Letting the sparge set for 10 minutes is what I would consider a partial truth. It will let the grain bed settle and that might get you clearer wort but the real goal is clear beer and it doesn't seem to matter if the wort is completely clear or so cloudy you can't see through it. You can get clear beer either way.

Click to expand...

John is a dear friend, but the problem is that he doesn't batch sparge.

I like to think that I've refined my process to be pretty efficient. 45 minutes into the mash, I begin heating my sparge water, and simultaneously begin recirculating wort in the mash through a grant in order to clarify the wort. At the 60 minute mark, I turn off the pump and rearrange my hoses to drain from my grant into my kettle, and collect my first runnings. Once my mash tun starts gurgling, I close the valve, dump in the sparge water (around 175° F), give it a vigorous stir, then prop up the end of my mash tun opposite the valve (helps collect more runnings) and close it up. I then begin heating my first runnings, then come back and start recirculating again with my grant and my pump, until the wort is clear again. I then collect second runnings and add it to the (already heating) boil kettle. I then continue collecting runnings from my mash tun (now flowing at a mere trickle) until I hit my required pre-boil volume (6.5 gallons for a 60 minute boil, 7.25 gallons for a 90 minute boil).

Denny said:

Read this...www.dennybrew.com

I have batch sparged 455 batches and I've tried about everything that can be tried. I have found that the simplest technique is the best technique.

Click to expand...

Hey...thanks for the post!:rockin: You pointed out something in your linked page that DID NOT occur to me. When I pour the sweat wort back into my tun, I pour it along the sides to try to eliminate slashing. When the tun is fully drained, I have noticed the grain bed around the sides of the cooler/tun being only half as thick as in the center.
While I have noticed it, it never even crossed my mind to think of the sugar infused fluid taking the route of least resistance, and not rinsing the grain bed as well as it could.:smack:
I am brewing again in a week an a half. I will try to "ladle" the sweet wort back into the tun...see if it improves my numbers just a wee bit more.

Thanks Denny!!:rockin:

Denny said:

Read this...www.dennybrew.com
I have found that the simplest technique is the best technique.

Click to expand...

Excellent link and some very interesting ideas about technique. I learned to simply measure the amount of sweet wort after first-runnings and then subtract that from the desired volume to determine the sparge water volume. My efficiency has been good and usually hit within a point or two of projected OG.

I have no problem with changing that technique if there is a good reason. So what can I expect to gain by making the sparge volume equal to the first runnings volume?

gwapogorilla said:

Hey...thanks for the post!:rockin: You pointed out something in your linked page that DID NOT occur to me. When I pour the sweat wort back into my tun, I pour it along the sides to try to eliminate slashing. When the tun is fully drained, I have noticed the grain bed around the sides of the cooler/tun being only half as thick as in the center.
While I have noticed it, it never even crossed my mind to think of the sugar infused fluid taking the route of least resistance, and not rinsing the grain bed as well as it could.:smack:
I am brewing again in a week an a half. I will try to "ladle" the sweet wort back into the tun...see if it improves my numbers just a wee bit more.

Thanks Denny!!:rockin:

Click to expand...

These videos may be useful for you...

http://s794.photobucket.com/user/dennyconn/media/mashrunoff.mp4.html

http://s794.photobucket.com/user/dennyconn/media/batchsparge.mp4.html

Puddlethumper said:

Excellent link and some very interesting ideas about technique. I learned to simply measure the amount of sweet wort after first-runnings and then subtract that from the desired volume to determine the sparge water volume. My efficiency has been good and usually hit within a point or two of projected OG.

I have no problem with changing that technique if there is a good reason. So what can I expect to gain by making the sparge volume equal to the first runnings volume?

Click to expand...

What you;re doing is the way I usually do it and the way I advise new brewers to do it. If you get equal runnings you may get a very slight increase in effieincy. But my experience is that of the runnings are within a gal. or so of each other, it's close enough.