couple of keggng questions

First, what pressure should I store under after obtaining carbonation in a cold (44F) keg? I'm guessing it should be ~30PSI, and then when ready to serve, use the relief valve to drop the pressure, and back-add just a few PSI for serving. I seemed to get a lot of foam while tapping as serving, and then the serving began to seem a little flat after only 10 minutes or so. (It spent 2 weeks in the fermenter, then into the keg+fridge.) Should I store it at room temperature for a while or will it age properly in the fridge?

Also, what about using a submerged air stone on the end of a long tube for the "IN" side of the keg? Like the air stone I use for Oxygenating the wort? Small bubbles help carbonate better, right? Wouldn't that be better than shaking the keg while force-carbonating? Has anyone tried an air stone?

Thanks,
Patricia

I suggest the set it and forget it, force carbonation method at around 12psi. Leave it there for serving. Always leave the gas on it. 10 to 12 feet of 3/16" ID beer line, kept at fridge temperature, will be needed to get a good pour. It will age fine in the fridge, as long as you haven't added sugar before kegging.

I would never leave 30psi on a keg of beer for more than 24 hours. How have you obtained carbonation? Have you already performed a shake carbonation? If you're just carbonating for storage, there is no reason to shake. Just store it with gas connected.

A stone has been discussed very recently on hbt. It doesn't make much of a difference.

Thank you for the info - I got the carbonation procedure from here...



...and I can hear the gas flowing into the keg (at 30 psi - you can hear it in his video about 8 minutes into the video) as I roll it on the floor - but I'm doing it cold (44F) and am not sure when to stop! I can't put my CO2 in the fridge. If 12 PSI is about right, then I may have overcarbed it. I guess I can bleed pressure off, add 12 and see if it stays at 12 or goes above 12 (with no gas lines attached).

That video is the famous "craigtube"?

Craig is enthusiastic about brewing, and I respect him for that. His techniques, although improving in the last several years, do leave a lot to be desired.

Shaking the beer at a higher carbonation level than the proper psi generally results in foamy overcarbed beer. Even shaking at the proper psi can be tricky due to resuspending solids in the beer, and breaking up some of the foam-enhancing proteins- although many people do that.

There are really two ways to get perfectly carbed beer. Since carbonation pressure is temperature dependent, looking at a carb chart is the way to do it. For my system, this means 12 psi at 40 degrees. Always.

If I'm in a HUGE hurry, I'll set the regulator at 30 psi for 36 hours and put the keg in the fridge. No shaking/rolling/agitating/carb stone. After 36 hours, purge and reset at 12 psi. It's generally really about perfect in 48 hours, and nice and clear after pouring off the first three ounces.

Those are really the only two ways that I've found that have worked for me.

I don't recommend the shaking method. I would suggest either the "set it and forget it" method described above, or if you are the impatient type, set it to 30 psi for 24 hours then drop it to 12 psi. It will be ready to drink in 2-3 days.

If you have a carbonated beer in a keg, it doesn't really matter what you set the head pressure to. The CO2 in solution in the beer create an equilibrium with the CO2 in the headspace. If you have a beer that's carbed at exactly 12 psi, and top the head off with 30 psi, the pressure in the head will drop to a little over 12 psi given enough time.

Edit: Or, what Yooper said.

I agree 100% with what Yooper said.

Since you asked about them, I'll also add that yes, an airstone/carbstone is a great alternative way to force carbonate if you're in a hurry. I typically prefer the extended cold conditioning from the set and forget method, but occasionally need to rush carbonation for a party or something. In that case, I'll use the carb stone, starting with the pressure at only 2-3 psi. I'll then increase the pressure 1-2 psi every hour until it's at serving pressure. This is a risk free method to fully carb in under 24 hrs.

Regardless of the carbonation method, you'll want the serving pressure to match the equilibrium pressure of your carb level and temperature. Any higher and the beer will overcarb. Any lower and you'll get pockets of gas forming in the line, causing a first foamy pour of every drinking session, and slowly lose carbonation.

And FWIW 44° is pretty warm, and you'll probably need either really long beer lines or low carb levels to prevent excessive foaming. You might consider dropping the temp a few degrees if you can. Keep in mind that pouring the beer will warm it up a few degrees, so if you want to drink 44° beer, you should be storing it at ~42°.

hehe - didn't know about craig :cross:

Thanks for the information in all the posts - this is really helpful! I didn't even know what temperature to set my fridge at. The hose in the fridge is a good idea. It sounds like 12 PSI is serving pressure - Craig said, 6???

One last thing - after 2 weeks in the fermenter, how long to "cold condition?" (Is that just meaning letting the cloudiness clear?) I'm told that many beers take months in the bottle (for the case of bottle carbing) to develop flavors - should I consider letting batches spend a month at room temperature in a glass carboy before kegging? I guess every beer is different, so maybe this is just a question (for now) about "stock" amber/pale ales.

I force carb every batch. Life's too short to wait for a gas to dissolve into a liquid.

Figure out your serving temp, then look up your serving pressure. If you only have a single pressure in your keezer, aim for 2.5 vol CO2 on the chart as a good compromise. Yooper's example of 40ºF and 12 psi is pretty solidly in the 2.5 vol range.

To force carb, hook up the gas and set to 3x the serving pressure for 24 hours. Start tasting at 18 hour and repeat every 2-4 hours until you're satisfied with the mouthfeel. Turn off the gas, vent the headspace, and return to serving pressure.

If you have multiple pressures, you gain the freedom of force carbing at a pressure tailored to the style of the beer in the keg while serving. If you have a single pressure, don't forget to shut off the other kegs to avoid overcarbing them!

pattim said:

hehe - didn't know about craig :cross:

Thanks for the information in all the posts - this is really helpful! I didn't even know what temperature to set my fridge at. The hose in the fridge is a good idea. It sounds like 12 PSI is serving pressure - Craig said, 6???

One last thing - after 2 weeks in the fermenter, how long to "cold condition?" (Is that just meaning letting the cloudiness clear?) I'm told that many beers take months in the bottle (for the case of bottle carbing) to develop flavors - should I consider letting batches spend a month at room temperature in a glass carboy before kegging? I guess every beer is different, so maybe this is just a question (for now) about "stock" amber/pale ales.

Click to expand...

Serving pressure depends on your beer temperature and carbonation level. Use a chart like this-
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

How long and at what temps to condition your beer are partially personal preference, and partially dependent on the beer style. Warmer temps accelerate the maturation of flavors, while colder temps preserve flavors more. Malt forward beer tend to age very well, whereas hop forward beers will lose much of the hop flavor and aroma with age.

I think by "cold condition" you're referring to "cold crashing". There is such a thing as conditioning cold, but it's generally not a question a new brewer would be seeking the answer to.

The point is that solids fall out faster and compact harder at lower temperatures.

The answer for how long to cold crash is subjective. How clear do you want your beer? For anything lighter than amber, I go 48 hours. Anything darker, I go 24 hours. This is long enough to get a good tasting beer for me, but probably not crystal clear.

Sorry, this is a little bit off subject but maybe someone can help me. I am kegging a beer and also am adding some cherry flavoring extract to the keg. My question(s) is, if I add the cherry flavoring to the keg, can I add gelatin too at the same time? Should I wait and add them at different times? Or should I just forget the gelatin altogether? I don't know if adding the gelatin with the flavoring would diminish the flavoring at all. Any info anyone had would be great. Thanks.

If you feel the need to add animal goo to your beer to clarify it, do so before any additions, lest the clarifier strip that which you're trying to add.

fwiw, as an alternative to the gelatin, a solid cold crash before kegging will clear your beer.
Don't know where you are (Management should make filling in user location data mandatory, imo) but for most of North America right now it's pretty much Cold Crashing Weather, no fridge required...

Cheers!

Yes I did a cold crash. I am in Wisconsin so it was very easy. I just thought adding the gelatin with the crash would be best. But I don't want to sacrifice flavor for cosmetics, so I will probably just skip adding your "goo". Thank you for the information.

Yes, it's a little confusing to me. I got kegs to stay away from bottles (too many didn't carbonate) - so I guess if I'm going to use kegs, then I need also to use a secondary to "age" the beer for a month or so? (that would have normally happened in the bottle whilst carbing) Or else I could go directly to a keg, cold crash, warm up and let it sit for a month, or is that only necessary for darker, more flavorful ales?

thadius856 said:

I think by "cold condition" you're referring to "cold crashing". There is such a thing as conditioning cold, but it's generally not a question a new brewer would be seeking the answer to.

The point is that solids fall out faster and compact harder at lower temperatures.

The answer for how long to cold crash is subjective. How clear do you want your beer? For anything lighter than amber, I go 48 hours. Anything darker, I go 24 hours. This is long enough to get a good tasting beer for me, but probably not crystal clear.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the chart!! I did find that I had to reduce serving pressure a LOT (just a few psi) to keep it from being 80% "head" - and shorten the delivery line. So I vented the keg (stored in the fridge at 12 psi and 41F), added a few psi, and that seemed to work.

patricia

JuanMoore said:

Serving pressure depends on your beer temperature and carbonation level. Use a chart like this-
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

How long and at what temps to condition your beer are partially personal preference, and partially dependent on the beer style. Warmer temps accelerate the maturation of flavors, while colder temps preserve flavors more. Malt forward beer tend to age very well, whereas hop forward beers will lose much of the hop flavor and aroma with age.

Click to expand...

pattim said:

Thank you for the chart!! I did find that I had to reduce serving pressure a LOT (just a few psi) to keep it from being 80% "head" - and shorten the delivery line. So I vented the keg (stored in the fridge at 12 psi and 41F), added a few psi, and that seemed to work.

patricia

Click to expand...

If you have foaming issues, you want longer serving lines, not shorter.

Set your pressure to the proper CO2 volumes for the median style. Again, if you have only one pressure, set to 2.5 vol for now. You can adjust to your personal tastes later.

If the first and consecutive pours are foamy, your lines are too short.

If only the first pour is foamy, you shanks are getting to warm and you need a fan to circulate the air in your keezer.

pattim said:

Yes, it's a little confusing to me. I got kegs to stay away from bottles (too many didn't carbonate) - so I guess if I'm going to use kegs, then I need also to use a secondary to "age" the beer for a month or so? (that would have normally happened in the bottle whilst carbing) Or else I could go directly to a keg, cold crash, warm up and let it sit for a month, or is that only necessary for darker, more flavorful ales?

Click to expand...

No, I don't use a secondary at all. I also don't cold crash, as the beer is clear without cold crashing.

When the beer is done (generally about two weeks from brewday), I rack the beer to the keg. If it's a "regular" beer, then I put it in the kegerator and put it on the gas. If it's something that can use a little age, like my oatmeal stout, I keg it and keep it at room temperature for two weeks or so and then stick it in the kegerator.

Beer ages faster at room temperature, so if you've got a beer that can benefit from some age, keeping the keg at room temperature for a week or two can work as your "secondary". Then just chill and carb up.

pattim said:

Yes, it's a little confusing to me. I got kegs to stay away from bottles (too many didn't carbonate) - so I guess if I'm going to use kegs, then I need also to use a secondary to "age" the beer for a month or so? (that would have normally happened in the bottle whilst carbing) Or else I could go directly to a keg, cold crash, warm up and let it sit for a month, or is that only necessary for darker, more flavorful ales?

Click to expand...

Aging changes the flavor profile. The warmer, the faster it occurs. It mellows hoppiness/smoke, smooths out alcohol bite, and generally may help hide some off-flavors.

Crashing is just meant to get yeast and particulates to fall out of solution so you can rack clearer beer off. It shouldn't affect flavors (except for removing more yeast, obviously).

A 2-3 week "aging" in the bottle is usually to give time the yeast time to carbonate. Admittedly, some heavier brews do need some additional time to mellow.

You have three easy options here if you want to age with a kegging system:
1. Extend your primary. Many here do 4-wk primaries. Keg, carb, drink.
2. Utilize a secondary (maybe even in a keg). Transfer to a fresh keg, carb, drink.
3. Bulk age in the keg 2-4 weeks, carb, drink without transferring.

#1 is easiest. #2 is probably as clear as you'll get without filtering. #3 is so darn tempting to drink I usually fail at it.

Yooper said:

No, I don't use a secondary at all. I also don't cold crash, as the beer is clear without cold crashing.

When the beer is done (generally about two weeks from brewday), I rack the beer to the keg. If it's a "regular" beer, then I put it in the kegerator and put it on the gas. If it's something that can use a little age, like my oatmeal stout, I keg it and keep it at room temperature for two weeks or so and then stick it in the kegerator.

Beer ages faster at room temperature, so if you've got a beer that can benefit from some age, keeping the keg at room temperature for a week or two can work as your "secondary". Then just chill and carb up.

Click to expand...

I don't get clear beer after a two week primary and no cold crash, even siphoning off with my cask widge. Wish I did.

How you accomplishing that?

thadius856 said:

I don't get clear beer after a two week primary and no cold crash, even siphoning off with my cask widge. Wish I did.

How you accomplishing that?

Click to expand...

I dunno, exactly.

The mash pH is always correct, and the amount of calcium is at least 50 ppm. The boil kettle pH is appropriate, and I get a great hot break and cold break (I generally use whirlfloc if I remember). The wort is clear coming out of the boil kettle. Then, it's cloudy during fermentation due to the yeast activity, and when the yeast drops out, it's clear again.

I think the combination of pH, calcium, whirlfloc, good hot and cold breaks, and a flocculant yeast make it be so clear even when young.

TYVM for spelling this out to me. It's sometimes hard to tell one person's opinion (or what they do) from the general procedures most folks find that work. I appreciate you mentioning what most folks do! - Patti