Another infection? Frustration!

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Glaurung30

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So I put up a post a while ago about a pumpkin ale that I did that appeared to get a lacto infection. I have it bottle and it's a little sour but I think with age it will turn out good.

This is a recipe from Austin Home brew which is a cider but with specialty grains and hops. It's been in the primary for about 3 weeks. I have opened it twice to take a sample. Both times I sanitized the measuring cup I used to draw it out. Here is the same broken ice build up at the top.

I cleaned all of my items with hot water and antibacterial dish soap, then used hot water and bleach, and then used star sans.

What am I doing wrong? I'm getting frustrated. This is the third time in a row that this has happened. I'm getting to the point that I feel like giving up because all I keep getting is this result.

IMAG7602.jpg
 
Sorry to hear your frustrations. Haven't seen your other bad batches but maybe consider switching to a glass carboy?

What's your brew day like/process?
 
Don't give up my friend, I had a dozen infected batches last year and I gave up brewing for a while. Remember to clean everything with soap, then sanitize. For me I finally just started cleaning and sanitizing everything on both sides of the boil.
 
nextgenxx said:
Sorry to hear your frustrations. Haven't seen your other bad batches but maybe consider switching to a glass carboy?

What's your brew day like/process?
Click to expand...


Well everything that comes in contact I use antibacterial soup and hot water to clean everything, then after that I took almost boiling water and bleach to everything. Then I used a spray bottle of starsan on the bucket, lid, airlock. I only opened this one twice. A few days ago it looked fine. I use a 1 cup measuring cup to draw a little out to taste but I sprayed that down with the star sans too. I'm wondering if the closet I keep it in is the problem when I open it. hmmm


This is the pumpkin ale I did.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/im-sorry-asking-does-look-infected-438518/
 
hey man...don't give up. like golf, a consistent slice is WAY easier to fix than random issues. :) think about the equipment and the process post boil and change one at a time until you figure out what it is. not sure others' thoughts, but I personally would stop using bleach. I think it's unnecessary and introduces potential for problems. wash with mild soap, rinse very well, sanitize. I also sanitize after use (after boil, after siphon, etc.) Less risk of mold and other sediment build up...so easier to clean later. when you figure it out, post an update!
 
i dunno.. maybe not use soap?? and just use your bleach and if you let your pail sit over night take some easy clean to your pail and let soak for 30min
 
laughingboysbrew said:
hey man...don't give up. like golf, a consistent slice is WAY easier to fix than random issues. :) think about the equipment and the process post boil and change one at a time until you figure out what it is. not sure others' thoughts, but I personally would stop using bleach. I think it's unnecessary and introduces potential for problems. wash with mild soap, rinse very well, sanitize. I also sanitize after use (after boil, after siphon, etc.) Less risk of mold and other sediment build up...so easier to clean later. when you figure it out, post an update!
Click to expand...

i use bleach and had no issues
 
What's the measuring cup made out of? If you're using plastic materials you really have to be careful. I've heard of plastics getting contaminated and holding infections despite any effort to rid the equipment of the problem. I believe Plamer talks about this and he also recommends replacing plastics every couple of months just to cut out some of the risk.
 
Glaurung30 said:
Well everything that comes in contact I use antibacterial soup and hot water to clean everything, then after that I took almost boiling water and bleach to everything. Then I used a spray bottle of starsan on the bucket, lid, airlock. I only opened this one twice. A few days ago it looked fine. I use a 1 cup measuring cup to draw a little out to taste but I sprayed that down with the star sans too. I'm wondering if the closet I keep it in is the problem when I open it. hmmm


This is the pumpkin ale I did.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/im-sorry-asking-does-look-infected-438518/
Click to expand...

Do you sanitize the outside of the bucket before it is opened for SG samplles?
 
maybe try switching sanitizers? go from star san to idophor? sometimes a house bug will get used to your sanitization process and the only way to shake it is to change the sanitizer.
 
flars said:
Do you sanitize the outside of the bucket before it is opened for SG samplles?
Click to expand...

I like this idea.

Something I have also done that helps me, or I think is, I got a huge rubbermaid tub, and I keep it full of starsan, I can fit hole buckets or any other equipment in there. This way I know it's been soaking for hours usually before I need it, and also it's been sanitized inside and out, literally.
 
One way I look at sanitation is that everything that touches the wort after the flame is turned off has to be sanitized.

How do you cool the wort? Do not add ice from your home freezer or commercial ice. Immersion chiller goes into boiling wort before flameout.

How do you aerate the wort? Stirrer, funnel, etc. must be sanitized.

How do you pitch yeast? If you use a sachet, do you sanitize scissors and sachet prior to pitching? Tearing a smackpack with bacterially infected fingers can introduce bacteria.

Do you taste any samples and pour back into the bucket? The human mouth is a great incubator for lactobacillus bacteria.

Think about every task following flameout and what touches the wort. You may be able to identify one step where that bacteria may be getting in.

Best of luck to you.
 
Are you sure you have an infection? That picture doesn't appear as though you do. Your sourness may just be from beer that hasn't matured yet. It may have acetaldehyde, an intermediate product the yeast make on the way to making alcohol. Acetaldehyde has a slightly sour flavor, described by many as that of green apples. Given time the yeast will complete the process of turning that into alcohol. I like to leave my beer in the primary fermenter for 3 weeks to give the yeast plenty of time for that and then in bottles for another month or more before drinking.
 
At this point I would be looking at anything touching my wort post-boil from the moment the flame is out and not just after it is cooled. I'd be looking at my thermometer, spoon, siphon, etc. If it is plastic, I would likely consider replacing everything. It is a cost that you likely did not want to incur, but after three infections (if this is even an infection) I would just do it.

It also sounds like you're just spraying star san and not soaking anything in it. I would maybe try to soak things in star san. For me, I spray it only after it has been soaked to keep it wet. So my siphon is soaking, I take it out, I spray it down and keep doing that until I am using it. I'm paranoid, I think.

It is a shame that this is happening but there has to be something bigger going on here that you're just not seeing.
 
Thanks for the tips guys. I'm making a list of the different suggestions.

I have been using the White Labs vials to make a yeast starter in flask so no dirty scissors are involved. ha I soak the flask in starsan before putting anything in it.

The measuring cup I use is plastic. I don't pour back in. I do not spray the outside of the bucket though.

One thing I did think about that I use a stainless steel spoon for stirring during boil and I use the same spoon to stir to aerate. I don't sanitze that spoon because I figured it's in the boil but when I think about it the entire spoon is not in the boil and more of the spoon gets submerged when I'm stirring it in the bucket. I'll try sanitizing the entire thing next time before I aerate.

For cool down I put the kettle in an ice bath in the tub. I use individual gallons of distilled water. I save the last two gallons and put them in the freezer. I let the wort cool in the ice bath for a little and then use the almost frozen distilled water to bring the temperature down.

I'm not really looking forward to getting new buckets. :/ I have two fermenters and a bottling bucket. I know they are not a lot of money but I have trouble justifying to my wife getting anymore stuff. haha


I assumed this was an infection because it looks exactly like the last batch which did have a sour flavor. This one however does not have any sour flavor yet. Actually since it's a cider it wouldn't be bad if it did.

If I can't figure this out I'm just going to dive into wild brewing completely since I seem to be doing a good job of it! :) ha
 
Did you Star San the lid before recapping the bucket? Taking the lid off and leaving it with the inside up creates a petri dish for anything to land on and then will fall into bucket after recapping. On the other hand if you put the lid to the side with the inside part facing down on to something it may have been contaminated that way. Just my 2 cents.
 
Just an FYI, dont use hot water with bleach. Always use cold water because warm water will make it less effective. I would purchase either oxyclean free or pbw and give everything you use a good soak for a day in hot water and pbw or oxyclean. Not boiling, because pbw says it is most effective between 140 and 160 degrees F. Then after that I would rinse and sanitize.
 
Psycotte said:
Did you Star San the lid before recapping the bucket? Taking the lid off and leaving it with the inside up creates a petri dish for anything to land on and then will fall into bucket after recapping. On the other hand if you put the lid to the side with the inside part facing down on to something it may have been contaminated that way. Just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...

Good point here too. I did not sanitize the lid before putting it back on.
 
Would campden help me at all to stop the infections from happening? I'm still unsure on when to use campden so I never have.
 
I would start boiling your top up water. Everything that touches your wort post-boil needs to be sterile or sanitized.

and get a wine thief vs dipping a plastic kitchen cup in my wort.
 
Glaurung30 said:
Would campden help me at all to stop the infections from happening? I'm still unsure on when to use campden so I never have.
Click to expand...

You still haven't convinced me that you really have an infection. Does the beer keep getting more sour or is it just a slight sour taste?
 
RM-MN said:
You still haven't convinced me that you really have an infection. Does the beer keep getting more sour or is it just a slight sour taste?
Click to expand...

Well this is what I'm hoping! ha This beer/cider had no sour taste last night at all. It actually was a little bitter but the recipe called for 2oz of hops.


The pumpkin ale though does have a sour taste. It bottled the pumpkin one and there is a white crust at the top of all of the bottles.

I need to take a sample of it and bring it in to work. I do work in a biology department at a college as an admin. haha I'll have the microbiologists start a petri dish off of it and tell me what I got going on. haha
 
Another thing to keep in mind, if you are using Star San, do not dry it, rinse it, wipe it off, etc. Soak/spray and leave it.
 
skitamofo said:
Another thing to keep in mind, if you are using Star San, do not dry it, rinse it, wipe it off, etc. Soak/spray and leave it.
Click to expand...

Yeah I don't wipe it or rinse it. I just leave it but I think I have been spraying and not soaking enough.

I'm going to make a check list with some of the ideas people have given and go through that on my next brew day.
 
I don't use any kind of dish soap to clean any of my brewing equipment. Nor do I use any kind of sponge or rag that has anything that can scratch the inside of the fermenter. PBW (Powdered Brewery Wash) is all I use. I Soak eveything in a bucket of hot water and PBW. Then rinse and let dry until brew day. Then everything gets rerinsed and sanitized with Star-san. I have a 6 gallon bucket with lid that has 5 gallons of Star-san/distilled water mix. I also have 2 spray bottles of Star-san. Instead of spraying the inside of the fermenter, I dump about a quart of Star-san in the fermenting bucket and then spray the lid. Put the lid on the bucket and shake the crap out of it for about 30 seconds. I do this right before the boil, and during the boil I'll shake it up a few more times (lots of foam! :) ). When ready to transfer wort in the fermenter, I dump the leftover Star-san (and a lot of the foam) back into my Star-san bucket. Then transfer wort right on top of the remaining Star-san foam. Then respray the lid, and the airlock bung with Star-san, and add the Star-san'd airlock with Star-san in that as well. Don't let Star-san dry... it's a wet contact sanitizer.

I have yet to have an infected beer in 3 years of brewing.

Make sure your fermenting bucket is free from scratches in the inside. Also, Since you're using a bucket for a fermenter, there is no need to dip a cup in the brew to take a gravity reading. Just drop your Star-san'd hydrometer right in the brew in the bucket.

Star-san is your friend. :D

Gary
 
Sympathy. I had a string of infections too. Mine looked like that too. You'll know if that skin is an infection if it gets thicker, or spreads. You might be getting it from your closet or your cup. I use a pyrex measuring cup. I no longer open my fermenter in the basement where they ferment (it's yucky down there). I bring it upstairs, starsan the lid and my hands. I also don't take a series of tests, just one before bottling. Unless it's something unusual, it's done in two weeks. I read on BeerBorg Forum to keep a small sample separate in a bottle and use that for testing. Then you don't have to open your bucket unless you are dry hopping or something. Good luck. You can beat this, I did.
 
Don't touch the bucket for at least a minimum of 14 days. Then take an FG reading. Most beers are either done, or very, very close to being done at 14 days. By "most beers" I mean anything under 1.060 OG.

Gary
 
Glaurung30 said:
Thanks for the tips guys. I'm making a list of the different suggestions.

I have been using the White Labs vials to make a yeast starter in flask so no dirty scissors are involved. ha I soak the flask in starsan before putting anything in it.

The measuring cup I use is plastic. I don't pour back in. I do not spray the outside of the bucket though.

One thing I did think about that I use a stainless steel spoon for stirring during boil and I use the same spoon to stir to aerate. I don't sanitze that spoon because I figured it's in the boil but when I think about it the entire spoon is not in the boil and more of the spoon gets submerged when I'm stirring it in the bucket. I'll try sanitizing the entire thing next time before I aerate.

For cool down I put the kettle in an ice bath in the tub. I use individual gallons of distilled water. I save the last two gallons and put them in the freezer. I let the wort cool in the ice bath for a little and then use the almost frozen distilled water to bring the temperature down.

I'm not really looking forward to getting new buckets. :/ I have two fermenters and a bottling bucket. I know they are not a lot of money but I have trouble justifying to my wife getting anymore stuff. haha


I assumed this was an infection because it looks exactly like the last batch which did have a sour flavor. This one however does not have any sour flavor yet. Actually since it's a cider it wouldn't be bad if it did.

If I can't figure this out I'm just going to dive into wild brewing completely since I seem to be doing a good job of it! :) ha
Click to expand...

Here is a link to my homemade bottling/fermenting buckets, and my system. I have since figured out that I can ferment 4.75 gallons in one of those, and I never get any sediment because I have placed the spigot a 1/4 inch or so higher than a bottling one is normally, that allows me to tilt the bucket if I need to and still not get any trub.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bottling-closed-system-homemade-fermenter-spigot-428255/

When your wort is cooling, is there a lid on the pot? Lots of bugs in the air.
 
Another thought. Does your bucket have a rubber or vinyl sealing ring in the lid which is removeable? Have you pulled the seal out to clean underneath?
 
flars said:
Another thought. Does your bucket have a rubber or vinyl sealing ring in the lid which is removeable? Have you pulled the seal out to clean underneath?
Click to expand...

Yes it does have a rubber sealing ring and i have not cleaned that. Thanks for the tip. I'm adding it to my list of stuff to do.
 
GASoline71 said:
I don't use any kind of dish soap to clean any of my brewing equipment. Nor do I use any kind of sponge or rag that has anything that can scratch the inside of the fermenter. PBW (Powdered Brewery Wash) is all I use. I Soak eveything in a bucket of hot water and PBW. Then rinse and let dry until brew day. Then everything gets rerinsed and sanitized with Star-san. I have a 6 gallon bucket with lid that has 5 gallons of Star-san/distilled water mix. I also have 2 spray bottles of Star-san. Instead of spraying the inside of the fermenter, I dump about a quart of Star-san in the fermenting bucket and then spray the lid. Put the lid on the bucket and shake the crap out of it for about 30 seconds. I do this right before the boil, and during the boil I'll shake it up a few more times (lots of foam! :) ). When ready to transfer wort in the fermenter, I dump the leftover Star-san (and a lot of the foam) back into my Star-san bucket. Then transfer wort right on top of the remaining Star-san foam. Then respray the lid, and the airlock bung with Star-san, and add the Star-san'd airlock with Star-san in that as well. Don't let Star-san dry... it's a wet contact sanitizer.

I have yet to have an infected beer in 3 years of brewing.

Make sure your fermenting bucket is free from scratches in the inside. Also, Since you're using a bucket for a fermenter, there is no need to dip a cup in the brew to take a gravity reading. Just drop your Star-san'd hydrometer right in the brew in the bucket.

Star-san is your friend. :D

Gary
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips. I bought some PWB and am going to soak everything in it tonight. Saturday morning I'll be brewing up my next batch. I'll fill my other bucket up with starsan and water and keep that on hand during the whole process for soaking anything I need to.
 

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