Can I use kegs and CO2 to eliminate oxygen and clarify my beer?

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SuperX

SuperX

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I am a total kegging noob but have a nice Sanyo for a kegerator project that I want to use.

I want to ferment in my buckets/carboys and use the racking cane to rack from them into a clean and CO2 filled corny keg through the beer out post. This should put the beer in the keg without exposure to O2. Once in the keg, I will 2ndary / dry hop and then transfer the beer to a CO2 filled serving keg through a filter. Some beers may also get a little more hops in the serving keg.

My goals are to keep my fermenters free for use, avoid light and O2, and have super clear beer on tap. I would also like to be able to store beer in the kegs under CO2 until I want to tap it or until it is finished maturing (big porters, etc).

Has anyone taken this approach? Will this work? Any Gotchas?

Thanks,

Crystal
 
I would connect CO2 to the keg fill it and purge all the oxygen out and then using the racking tube fill the keg with the tube in the bottom to eliminate oxygen. Just keep a layer of CO2 above the beer. I haven't tried putting it through the out post, I'm not sure how you would make that work. would the keg have co2 pressure on it?

Anyways I do go from primary to keg and put co2 on the beer and let it sit until I'm ready to tap it. I also always dry hop in a keg with a stainless steel dry hopper and I have noticed a difference in how much stronger the aroma is in the finished beer(not huge but noticeable). I do pretty much exactly what I think your looking to do and I would say it's had a positive impact on the beer, especially my IPA's.
 
I have put a beer into a keg without filtering and it comes out very cloudy and still with hops in it. Clogs really bad. I would think putting it into the out would not do much for filtering. I am no professional either but don't see it working to well. I also agree. You need a psi or 2 of co2
 
thisisbeer said:
I would connect CO2 to the keg fill it and purge all the oxygen out and then using the racking tube fill the keg with the tube in the bottom to eliminate oxygen. Just keep a layer of CO2 above the beer. I haven't tried putting it through the out post, I'm not sure how you would make that work. would the keg have co2 pressure on it?

Anyways I do go from primary to keg and put co2 on the beer and let it sit until I'm ready to tap it. I also always dry hop in a keg with a stainless steel dry hopper and I have noticed a difference in how much stronger the aroma is in the finished beer(not huge but noticeable). I do pretty much exactly what I think your looking to do and I would say it's had a positive impact on the beer, especially my IPA's.
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I saw blog post on racking into the beer out port. The trick is apparently to keep popping the pressure relief valve to let the beer in. The part of this I like most is not having an open keg with a hose going into it - using a ball lock valve and running it from the cane or bottling spiggot to the beer out should work if you do that. Just one less way to get O2 and light on your beer.
 
I see how that could work, it's interesting.

I have done several batches this way and have never clogged anything on my kegging system. I do use a fine mesh stainless steel cylinder to dry hop so nothing gets left behind. It works great for me by the time its carbed it's usually clear to.
 
SuperX said:
The part of this I like most is not having an open keg with a hose going into it - using a ball lock valve and running it from the cane or bottling spiggot to the beer out should work if you do that. Just one less way to get O2 and light on your beer.
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I think you're placing too much emphasis on protecting your beer from light. Direct sunlight will skunk beer within minutes, but for most other types of light (fluorescent, incandescent), it's a non-issue. It's the UV rays that are the culprit. Just keep it away from tanning beds. ;)

I've done something similar to what you describe. I've used Corny kegs as secondary vessels to lager beer for an extended period (months) and allow it to clarify. Once it came time to keg it, here's what I did:

I replaced the dip tube on the keg (containing the beer) with one that had been shortened by an inch or so, in order to leave any sediment in the source keg. I then elevated the keg above the level of the destination keg.

I purged the destination keg with CO2 several times, then opened the pressure relief valve and left it open. (On mine, if you twist the little pull ring while lifting, it will stay open until you line it up with the notches in the valve again to let it close). I set this keg on the floor, with its top below the level of the bottom of the source keg (basically, a simple siphoning elevation configuration).

I then connected a jumper tube I'd made. It is simply some beverage line with a ball lock liquid disconnect on both ends. I connected one end to the "beer out" post of the source keg, and the other end to the "beer out" post of the destination keg. That's not a typo - I connected beer out to beer out.

I then connected my CO2 tank to the source keg and opened the tank valve to start "pushing" the beer from the source keg to the destination keg.

Once the flow started, I simultaneously opened the pressure relief valve on the SOURCE keg and closed the valve on the CO2 tank, so that instead of "pushing" the beer from keg to keg, the siphoning action would take over (and save me some CO2).

The destination keg basically filled from the bottom up, through the dip tube. The flow was pretty slow, so this took quite a while (15-20 minutes), but it worked. If you value your time more than your CO2, you could just leave the PRV closed on the source tank, and use your CO2 to push the whole load through much faster.

This worked for me, but I made one mistake I will caution you about. I store my kegs cleaned, sanitized, and pressurized. Since I seal them up and pressurize them immediately after sanitizing, there's always a little StarSan foam still in the keg. Over time, obviously, the bubbles dissipate, and I'm left with a small puddle of StarSan in the very bottom of each keg. When filling normally, I open the keg, dump this StarSan, then flush with CO2 again. The first time I tried this method, however, I forgot to do this. As soon as I connected my jumper tube, the pressure between the kegs equalized. Unfortunately, the pressure in my empty keg was higher than the lagering keg, and StarSan back-flowed into my keg full of beer. I should have dumped the destination keg first, then ensured it was at a lower pressure than the source keg before connecting the jumper tube.
 
I would think you would have to remove the poppet, ( yes?), from the beer out post to be able to siphon from the racking cane through it.

Seems like a pretty good flow impediment.

And couldn't you just leave the top off of the corny while transferring, after you purged it good?
 
Stealthcruiser said:
I would think you would have to remove the poppet, ( yes?), from the beer out post to be able to siphon from the racking cane through it.

Seems like a pretty good flow impediment.

And couldn't you just leave the top off of the corny while transferring, after you purged it good?
Click to expand...

The ball lock fitting should depress the poppet so it should let you put as much flow through it as it has for dispensing. I am assuming there isn't a backflow preventer on the locks, maybe there is?

Yeah I may be over engineering things a bit, you could just leave the top off since CO2 is heavier than air, but that does introduce the chance of light or wild yeasties or other boogers getting in the pot. I was thinking of a poor mans way to do this without pumps. :)
 
kombat said:
I think you're placing too much emphasis on protecting your beer from light. Direct sunlight will skunk beer within minutes, but for most other types of light (fluorescent, incandescent), it's a non-issue. It's the UV rays that are the culprit. Just keep it away from tanning beds. ;)

I've done something similar to what you describe. I've used Corny kegs as secondary vessels to lager beer for an extended period (months) and allow it to clarify. Once it came time to keg it, here's what I did:

I replaced the dip tube on the keg (containing the beer) with one that had been shortened by an inch or so, in order to leave any sediment in the source keg. I then elevated the keg above the level of the destination keg.

I purged the destination keg with CO2 several times, then opened the pressure relief valve and left it open. (On mine, if you twist the little pull ring while lifting, it will stay open until you line it up with the notches in the valve again to let it close). I set this keg on the floor, with its top below the level of the bottom of the source keg (basically, a simple siphoning elevation configuration).

I then connected a jumper tube I'd made. It is simply some beverage line with a ball lock liquid disconnect on both ends. I connected one end to the "beer out" post of the source keg, and the other end to the "beer out" post of the destination keg. That's not a typo - I connected beer out to beer out.

I then connected my CO2 tank to the source keg and opened the tank valve to start "pushing" the beer from the source keg to the destination keg.

Once the flow started, I simultaneously opened the pressure relief valve on the SOURCE keg and closed the valve on the CO2 tank, so that instead of "pushing" the beer from keg to keg, the siphoning action would take over (and save me some CO2).

The destination keg basically filled from the bottom up, through the dip tube. The flow was pretty slow, so this took quite a while (15-20 minutes), but it worked. If you value your time more than your CO2, you could just leave the PRV closed on the source tank, and use your CO2 to push the whole load through much faster.

This worked for me, but I made one mistake I will caution you about. I store my kegs cleaned, sanitized, and pressurized. Since I seal them up and pressurize them immediately after sanitizing, there's always a little StarSan foam still in the keg. Over time, obviously, the bubbles dissipate, and I'm left with a small puddle of StarSan in the very bottom of each keg. When filling normally, I open the keg, dump this StarSan, then flush with CO2 again. The first time I tried this method, however, I forgot to do this. As soon as I connected my jumper tube, the pressure between the kegs equalized. Unfortunately, the pressure in my empty keg was higher than the lagering keg, and StarSan back-flowed into my keg full of beer. I should have dumped the destination keg first, then ensured it was at a lower pressure than the source keg before connecting the jumper tube.
Click to expand...

this is a very ingenious way to do the same thing I was thinking, except I was going to put a filter in between the 2ndary keg and the final serving keg so I would probably use CO2 to get the brew through the filter too. Yeah I see why it is beer out to beer out, good pointer there, makes sense. Sorry about your Starsan problem, hope it didn't ruin anything. Thanks! :mug:
 
Purge the keg with co2 a few times first. I use ~5psi - pressurize it, wait a little bit, open relief valve, then do it a few more times. One of those times that I do it, instead of releasing through the relief valve, I put my "out" connecter on with tubing attached so it purges the dip tube and tubing, also.

When you transfer into the keg, you can either open the relief valve, attach a gas connecter on the "in" valve, or simply open the top of the keg and place a starsan-soaked rag over the opening. You just want to keep the air currents from disturbing the co2.

After filling, pressurize and purge a few times to make sure O2 is gone, and store it under pressure. One of my kegs doesn't seal all the way unless I give it at least 8-10psi when storing at room temp during dry hopping.
 
This seems to me like it's a lot of work without much benefit. The risk of oxidation and light exposure is pretty small, and I've done plenty of perfectly clear dry-hopped beers without filtering. My process has been to rack into a clean and sanitized carboy (you can use a keg if you want to free up your fermenters) for dry hopping, then transfer into a keg, and pressurize. I've never covered anything in a CO2 blanket, and haven't had any issues with oxidation. I also exclusively use clear carboys, and have never had an issue with skunking.

I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I think you should be able to accomplish those goals without going through that much trouble.
 
TheZymurgist said:
This seems to me like it's a lot of work without much benefit. The risk of oxidation and light exposure is pretty small, and I've done plenty of perfectly clear dry-hopped beers without filtering. My process has been to rack into a clean and sanitized carboy (you can use a keg if you want to free up your fermenters) for dry hopping, then transfer into a keg, and pressurize. I've never covered anything in a CO2 blanket, and haven't had any issues with oxidation. I also exclusively use clear carboys, and have never had an issue with skunking.

I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I think you should be able to accomplish those goals without going through that much trouble.
Click to expand...

I can't argue that it is a bit of work, but I've been fighting some off flavors in one of my batches that I think are oxidation and since I am going to start kegging, I'm looking for ways to leverage CO2 and kegs to eliminate it as a suspect. I've never had my brew go skunky but I do believe that even visible light (not just UV) can cause hops to degrade. The darkness of a keg is just a bonus and an excuse to break out the night vision goggles :cool:
 
I ferment in a conical and my kegging process is to clean, sanitize, then fill w/ CO2 and release 3-4x this will purge close to 90% of the oxygen from the keg and leave a blanket of CO2 on top. Then hook up 3/8" hose from my fermenter to the out post on my keg. From there I just keep the pressure relief valve pulled up, or on my pin lock kegs I keep the pressure relief tool on. This allows the beer to flow w/o restriction.

One piece of advice on the filtering after dry hopping. The filter will clog and you'll turn into a sailor. I refuse to dry hop in a keg, just too much effort and annoyance. No problems though with the filtering process. I find though that after about 2 weeks of gas and in the fridge the beers clear up just as well as filtering.
 
joelrapp said:
I ferment in a conical and my kegging process is to clean, sanitize, then fill w/ CO2 and release 3-4x this will purge close to 90% of the oxygen from the keg and leave a blanket of CO2 on top. Then hook up 3/8" hose from my fermenter to the out post on my keg. From there I just keep the pressure relief valve pulled up, or on my pin lock kegs I keep the pressure relief tool on. This allows the beer to flow w/o restriction.

One piece of advice on the filtering after dry hopping. The filter will clog and you'll turn into a sailor. I refuse to dry hop in a keg, just too much effort and annoyance. No problems though with the filtering process. I find though that after about 2 weeks of gas and in the fridge the beers clear up just as well as filtering.
Click to expand...

thanks for confirming the in-through-the-out thing! Did you try using hops bags for the dry hopping and still have the sailorification? I was thinking of using a 5 micron filter before my 1 micron filter to avoid clogging and just ganging them together with a pipe.
 
I typically don't use hop bags because of the conical. I just dump trub etc before transferring to kegs. Cold crashing prior to the filtering will help a ton, no clogs.
 
I finally got my kegs and CO2 set up and ran my first batch through the process. My XIPA turned out great, very crystal clear but black as sin... the only thing I noticed is that ganging up a 5 micron and 1 micron filter back to back took a lot of CO2 and time to move the beer. I finally dialed up the tank to 30psi and things moved nicely. With 5gal in my keg, I did a little bit of force carbing but didn't run the pressure up high, just rocking for a few minutes at 10psi then letting it sit in the fridge 8 hours, then burping it and rocking it a few more minutes at 10psi then into the fridge. I poured a glass right away and it was nicely carbed and the beer was great! The dry hop with 2oz of Amarillo and 1 oz of Simco worked to add a very nice aroma and a grapefruity taste that was nicely balanced by the Centennial bittering (FWH).

WP_20131103_001.jpg
 
Here's what I do. I have a plastic conical. I store my empty kegs pressurized with starsan in them. I depressure, empty the kegs, then drain the beer into the kegs through a 3/8 PVC tube. I have a whole house filter setup with 5 micron filters. I push the beer out the liquid side of the first keg, through the filter, and into the liquid side of the second keg. Let the co2 blow through for a couple seconds and all the o2 is purged out. Pressurize the final keg and throw it in the keeper. Viola! Done. I wouldn't mess with trying to rack through the liquid out post. Use a long tube that goes to the bottom of the keg, and you accomplished the same thing without messing with the keg posts.
 
SuperX said:
I finally got my kegs and CO2 set up and ran my first batch through the process. My XIPA turned out great, very crystal clear but black as sin... the only thing I noticed is that ganging up a 5 micron and 1 micron filter back to back took a lot of CO2 and time to move the beer. I finally dialed up the tank to 30psi and things moved nicely. With 5gal in my keg, I did a little bit of force carbing but didn't run the pressure up high, just rocking for a few minutes at 10psi then letting it sit in the fridge 8 hours, then burping it and rocking it a few more minutes at 10psi then into the fridge. I poured a glass right away and it was nicely carbed and the beer was great! The dry hop with 2oz of Amarillo and 1 oz of Simco worked to add a very nice aroma and a grapefruity taste that was nicely balanced by the Centennial bittering (FWH).
Click to expand...

Nice looking beer Super! I'm the guy who wrote that blog post about racking through the post. Yeah, as joelrapp said, I just pull up the pin on the release valve and turn it sideways to keep the flow open. As long as you don't have any problems with the post/poppit of a particular keg (or the ball lock itself), it should flow pretty fast--close to as fast as racking with the top off.
 
tknice said:
Nice looking beer Super! I'm the guy who wrote that blog post about racking through the post. Yeah, as joelrapp said, I just pull up the pin on the release valve and turn it sideways to keep the flow open. As long as you don't have any problems with the post/poppit of a particular keg (or the ball lock itself), it should flow pretty fast--close to as fast as racking with the top off.
Click to expand...

nice trick TK :) It is my new go-to process. I did pull the pressure release valve and turn it, I think the effort of going through 2 filters was the cause of the slow-down. The filters were just coated with yeast and break materials. I was bummed when the 5 micron filter housing didn't empty after the donor keg was empty, but when I took the filters out, I could see why - it was a stew of crud that I wouldn't have wanted in my beer anyway. I've never seen a black IPA look so jewel like and yet so black - it was like a black diamond sparkling in the glass. I can't imagine ever going back to 100% bottling after doing this filter method. Thanks again!
 
SuperX said:
nice trick TK :) It is my new go-to process. I did pull the pressure release valve and turn it, I think the effort of going through 2 filters was the cause of the slow-down. The filters were just coated with yeast and break materials. I was bummed when the 5 micron filter housing didn't empty after the donor keg was empty, but when I took the filters out, I could see why - it was a stew of crud that I wouldn't have wanted in my beer anyway. I've never seen a black IPA look so jewel like and yet so black - it was like a black diamond sparkling in the glass. I can't imagine ever going back to 100% bottling after doing this filter method. Thanks again!
Click to expand...

Sure thing! It makes sense that filtering would slow it down a good bit. :)

To answer some of the other guys posts, I don't use this method to limit light exposure--I'm not worried about that during such a short time. It does limit the beer's contact with oxygen and it's nice because the kegs are already filled with C02 from when sanitizer was run through during cleaning. I've found that mold and/or bacteria can't grow if it's sealed with C02 so this works well. Why not fill from the bottom up and have the beer protected the whole time?

I guess the alternative is to open the lid and aim for the side of the keg to add as little oxygen as possible? I've done it both ways and honestly never had a problem with oxygen so maybe my process is overkill, I'm not sure. Seems worth it though when we're only talking about sanitizing an extra ball lock along with your racking stuff. :D
 
I've tried using the 5 micron filter alone and had cloudy margins and a not quite 'brilliant' beer so I went back to the double filter method and found that after the first 1/4 keg the 5 micron slowed the system down to a crawl. I pulled the filter and replaced with a fresh 5 mill and it went much faster. Here's the system in action

WP_20131116_001.jpg
 
SuperX said:
I've tried using the 5 micron filter alone and had cloudy margins and a not quite 'brilliant' beer so I went back to the double filter method and found that after the first 1/4 keg the 5 micron slowed the system down to a crawl. I pulled the filter and replaced with a fresh 5 mill and it went much faster. Here's the system in action
Click to expand...
Is that a 5 mil then a 1 mil, or even smaller? The finer you filter the better. My 5 mil slows down sometimes. I just jack the pressure up to force it through. I only have one person worth giving any of my beer to, and we're both content with 5 mils.
 
n240sxguy said:
Is that a 5 mil then a 1 mil, or even smaller? The finer you filter the better. My 5 mil slows down sometimes. I just jack the pressure up to force it through. I only have one person worth giving any of my beer to, and we're both content with 5 mils.
Click to expand...

It is a 5 mil followed by a 1 mil. Even jacking the pressure won't speed it up enough, a lot easier and cheaper on the CO2 to just swap in a new 5 mil. Even racking to a 2ndary before filtering leaves enough yeast to clog the filter up.

Here is the final product - not too clear if you ask me, it is still being carbed so it may just be chill haze but I was a bit dissappointed this time.

WP_20131118_003.jpg
 
Probably chill haze. I only use a 5 micron filter, and my beer looks similar to that for the first few days, then turns crystal clear.
 
This keg I tried cold crashing then pouring off the first pint or so, and that fixed the clogging of the 5 micron. The beer moved through in about 10 minutes at 5# with no foaming or other issues. I put the pitcher with the first running in the fridge and then poured the clear into the hydrometer sample jar to get FG.
 
This week I tried racking from the secondary fermentor to the keg via the auto siphon and liquid in post. Just run a little CO2 into the tank to cover the bottom, then start filling from the bottom up. When it starts coming out the vent, stop and filter into a new keg. The rest goes into bottles. The losses from filtering and foam make for one full keg and 2-3 12oz. bottles out of a 6 gallon batch

WP_20131215_001.jpg
 

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