when to fly or batch

i have been fly sparging for awhile now since making my setup with two Igloos. For a ten gallon batch it works great. For a 5 gallon, it never seems like i have enough water to really keep it above the grain bed like i want. At this lower volume of mash, should I just drain and batch sparge or is the hotter water doing it's job, regardless of the quantity above the bed?

relevant info:
2 36 qt coolers
1.75 usual strike ratio qt/lb
strike at 170-175
mash 60 minutes usually (sometimes 90) at 155

Honestly I don't know why any homebrewer fly sparges. Batch sparging is easier and faster. I think fly sparging is still out there because that is how most professional breweries sparge since it can result in higher efficiency. At a homebrew level though I don't see any benefit.

Is batch sparging really faster?
I fly sparge. To collect 6.5 gallon takes about 40 min.
I fly sparge because thats what I'm comfortable with and thats how my system is set up, not because a brewery does it.

I've never dedicated the time to fly sparge. But for batch sparging, I get great results from 5 or 10 gallon batches, consistently.

Try it once and see if you like it. If it's not for you, go back to fly sparging and enjoy the great hobby we all love.

Billybrewer09 said:

Is batch sparging really faster?
I fly sparge. To collect 6.5 gallon takes about 40 min.
I fly sparge because thats what I'm comfortable with and thats how my system is set up, not because a brewery does it.

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Yes, it's faster. I collect 7 gallons preboil, and from the time the mash is complete to the time I've got that collected and heating is 10 minutes tops.

By batch sparging I can collect 13 gallons of wort in about 15-20 minutes.

I used to fly sparge when I first AG brewed....too much hassle.
I batch sparge now and get great results.

I have two fly sparge set-ups sitting and gathering dust now.

JMO

i'm the other way. used to batch, then got a second cooler and started fly. but for the smaller sparges, i don't know if it's working the same way.

I cannot see how batch sparging could be faster than fly sparging. Don't you have to let the grain bed settle everytime you add water and mix again?

The way I see it, if you have a good false bottom, fly sparging is the way to go. For me 70% effeincecy is good enough, and I usually get 75-80.

Edit:

I sappose batch sparging it wouldn't take very long for the wort to run through the grain bed, so that could help speed things up some.

estricklin said:

I cannot see how batch sparging could be faster than fly sparging. Don't you have to let the grain bed settle everytime you add water and mix again?

The way I see it, if you have a good false bottom, fly sparging is the way to go. For me 70% effeincecy is good enough, and I usually get 75-80.

Edit:

I sappose batch sparging it wouldn't take very long for the wort to run through the grain bed, so that could help speed things up some.

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No need to let the bed settle. Vorlauf only.

To each their own, but out off curiosity, why do you fly sparge?

biestie said:

No need to let the bed settle. Vorlauf only.

To each their own, but out off curiosity, why do you fly sparge?

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Agreed. Especially if you have a fine false bottom. I use a braided hose and only need to vorlauf for a very short time.

i switched to fly sparging just for fun and i went from 70ish% to 80%. depending on the style i'll still be 70ish but whatever. but when i did batch, i let the water sit after pouring it in. you guys don't let it settle? just pour and drain?

I fly sparge because:

1. I find it easier. (I had been fly sparging for years before I even heard of batch sparging, and it's easier to do what you've always done rather than changing your procedures).
2. I get slightly better efficiency (about 5% for a beer with an O.G. of ~1.050)
3. I can get the same efficiency irrespective of the OG of the batch. With batch sparging, my efficiency goes down as the OG goes up.

-a.

biestie said:

No need to let the bed settle. Vorlauf only.

To each their own, but out off curiosity, why do you fly sparge?

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Yes Vorlauf is what I meant, it takes me about 1 to 1.5 gallons to vorlauf with my setup.

I fly sparge because it's so easy. I have my strike water ready when the time comes, I vorlauf and dump the water in and let her go. As I'm sparging the wort is already starting to boil. I use a good bit of rice hulls so if I wanted to I could go full blast with the valve, but I usually crack it about half way and doesn't really take all that long.

Batch sparging just never seemed logical to me so I never even considered it. I always get my expected OG or better too. It works for me and it's less work wether it's slower or not.

Another reason is that I was lucky and got 2 old 5 gallon water coolers from work for FREE. Otherwise, I might be batch sparging in a regular cooler.

Edit:

I really think the best thing an AG brewer can invest in besides good temp control is a nice stainless dome style false bottom. I know you guys with homemade fasle bottoms are gonna want to throw rocks at me for saying this but with a lot of those style false bottoms you can get channeling of the wort, which is where batch sparging comes in.

Fair enough. Honestly though, your statement about how far you leave your valve open has me scratching my head. Halfway? I used to fly sparge, and if i left the valve half open, I'd have lost the only benefit of fly sparging.

biestie said:

Fair enough. Honestly though, your statement about how far you leave your valve open has me scratching my head. Halfway? I used to fly sparge, and if i left the valve half open, I'd have lost the only benefit of fly sparging.

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Well it's half inch for one thing, but half way keeps it going about 3/4 speed. I know if I don't use rice hulls and try to go full blast it will stick, learned it the HARD way. I guess it takes about 20 minutes to sparge with the valve like that, never timed it exactly.

I never tried batch sparging but only fly sparge because that's what I read to do before I started. I brewed before using this forum and this is where I heard of batch sparging.

Anyways... I fly sparge and get 85% efficiency consistently. I sparge for about an hour sometimes 45 minutes. I have a domed false bottom on the bottom of my 10 gallon gatorade cooler.

I thought about batch sparging to save time on days I brew multiple batches mostly to cut back on time. Now I'm waiting on my new equipment so I can get my 20 gallon system going which I will be fly sparging.

I guess it is a thing of preference. Both ways work it's just what your more comfortable with.

when i fly it is still fast, like maybe 15 minutes. i must be draining too fast, although i try to keep it at a 1/4 turn trickle.

ajf said:

[*]I can get the same efficiency irrespective of the OG of the batch. With batch sparging, my efficiency goes down as the OG goes up.
[/LIST]
-a.

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You get same efficiency in big beers as in normal batch?
I am batch sparging but if I can extract more sugars I could try it with big ones.

diS said:

You get same efficiency in big beers as in normal batch?
I am batch sparging but if I can extract more sugars I could try it with big ones.

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Yes, but I have to sparge slower. About 90 - 110 minutes for a 5g batch.

-a.

I auto fly sparge.Run a hose from my HLT to a fitting connected to a sprinkler head in my cooler.
Just get it going and walk away for an hour or so.
Maybe check it after the first 15 minutes.
Go take my shower and come back to a kettle full of wort!
80% effiency on 5 gallon batches.
90% for 10 gallon batches every time.
Easier and cheaper.

estricklin said:

Edit:

I really think the best thing an AG brewer can invest in besides good temp control is a nice stainless dome style false bottom. I know you guys with homemade fasle bottoms are gonna want to throw rocks at me for saying this but with a lot of those style false bottoms you can get channeling of the wort, which is where batch sparging comes in.

Click to expand...

We won't throw very large rocks.
Where false bottoms could lead to channeling with any type of sparging if run too fast, batch sparging with a manifold is very fast and very efficient. My mashtun is rectangular and I use a manifold. I can run it wide open without any apparent issues.

But that's sorta why I started w/batch sparging. It was very cheap to set up a cooler and cpvc manifold.

Phunhog said:

Honestly I don't know why any homebrewer fly sparges. Batch sparging is easier and faster. I think fly sparging is still out there because that is how most professional breweries sparge since it can result in higher efficiency. At a homebrew level though I don't see any benefit.

Click to expand...

Honestly I don't know why any homebrewer batch sparges. No sparge is easier and faster. I think batch sparging is still out there because that is how most home breweries sparge since it can result in higher efficiency. At a homebrew level though I don't see any benefit.

Just kidding Phundog. I'm a fly sparger because I enjoy it more than batch.

johngault007 said:

We won't throw very large rocks.
Where false bottoms could lead to channeling with any type of sparging if run too fast, batch sparging with a manifold is very fast and very efficient. My mashtun is rectangular and I use a manifold. I can run it wide open without any apparent issues.

But that's sorta why I started w/batch sparging. It was very cheap to set up a cooler and cpvc manifold.

Click to expand...

How on earth could a false bottom lead to channeling?

If you are batch sparging, channeling is a non issue as the extraction of the sugars is accomplished by stirring when adding the sparge water.
If you are fly sparging, then the false bottom covers the entire drainage area unless you use it in a rectangular cooler.
When fly sparging with a collection mechanism that covers the entire drainage area, you are guaranteed to get less channeling than with a manifold or braid, although with a properly designed manifold, the difference could be so small as to be unmeasurable.

-a.

Yep, you are absolutely right. I was chasing a 2 year old around when I posted that. I meant stuck sparge w/false bottoms IRT fast runoffs.

But, if the manifold is designed correctly, channeling isn't an issue either.

Keep on keeping on.

johngault007 said:

Yep, you are absolutely right. I was chasing a 2 year old around when I posted that. I meant stuck sparge w/false bottoms IRT fast runoffs.

But, if the manifold is designed correctly, channeling isn't an issue either.

Keep on keeping on.

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Exactly, but a lot of homebrewers don't have the best manifolds, and that is where batch sparging comes in. Think about trying to fly sparge with a baided mesh or single barrel manifold, you would get a lot of channeling, so batch sparging over comes this problem.

Billybrewer09 said:

Is batch sparging really faster?
I fly sparge. To collect 6.5 gallon takes about 40 min.
I fly sparge because thats what I'm comfortable with and thats how my system is set up, not because a brewery does it.

Click to expand...

From the start of the mash runoff til the end of the sparge runoff takes me 15 min. to collect about 7 gal. of wort.

mendozer said:

i switched to fly sparging just for fun and i went from 70ish% to 80%. depending on the style i'll still be 70ish but whatever. but when i did batch, i let the water sit after pouring it in. you guys don't let it settle? just pour and drain?

Click to expand...

Yep. No need to let it sit.

Thank you Denny for finally getting involved.

ajf said:

Yes, but I have to sparge slower. About 90 - 110 minutes for a 5g batch.

-a.

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holy smokes you sparge slowly, at least compared to me. id your HLT over a burner to hold that temp?

also, what's the reasoning for a slow sparge? Isn't the starch already converted to sugar? what is draining slower going to do?

I'd say batch the five gallon runs.

yeah i was more consistent with batch for 5 gallons before. i guess there just isnt enough sparge volume to work with my 36 qt cooler. oh well.

justkev52 said:

I auto fly sparge.
80% effiency on 5 gallon batches.

Click to expand...

I use a sparging process very similar to you. However my efficiency hasn't been as good as yours. I have been running about 65%. What temp is your sparge water? Also, do you keep the mash water above the grain bed for the entire sparge? It seems like I have to drain the MT nearly completely to hit my target boil volume. I feel this has added some strong "grainy" flavors to my beer lately. Maybe I need to heat more sparge water.

chanson16 said:

Maybe I need to heat more sparge water.

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Yes, it sounds like you do. You should end with the level still above the grain bed.

I fly spare because I only want to vorlauf one time. Once the grain bed is all set I dont want to mess with it

ajf said:

How on earth could a false bottom lead to channeling?

If you are batch sparging, channeling is a non issue as the extraction of the sugars is accomplished by stirring when adding the sparge water.
If you are fly sparging, then the false bottom covers the entire drainage area unless you use it in a rectangular cooler.
When fly sparging with a collection mechanism that covers the entire drainage area, you are guaranteed to get less channeling than with a manifold or braid, although with a properly designed manifold, the difference could be so small as to be unmeasurable.

-a.

Click to expand...

You could get wall channeling. The sides typically offer less resistance than the center does.

ajf said:

I fly sparge because:

1. I can get the same efficiency irrespective of the OG of the batch. With batch sparging, my efficiency goes down as the OG goes up.

Click to expand...

That is a VERY good point. Batch sparging is a dilution, and fly-sparging (when done right) is not. So, for high gravity beers, fly-sparging could be much better for efficiency. Not sure it's worth my time, but I'll be thinking about that.

Batch sparging is dilution? That sounds more like fly sparging. Batch sparge is a draining process. Could you explain your thinking? For high gravity beers, I do no sparge, then partigyle a second beer.

Denny said:

Batch sparging is dilution? That sounds more like fly sparging. Batch sparge is a draining process. Could you explain your thinking? For high gravity beers, I do no sparge, then partigyle a second beer.

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Here are my thoughts. I know you are very knowledgeable on the subject Denny, so I spell this out just to better describe my thinking.

After lauter, the grain bed is saturated with sugars at the same gravity as the first runnings. We add a batch of water (sparge), that water mixes with the sugars still in the grain bed, and thus it's diluted.

Lauter that and you are still left with a grain bed full of sugars, but now it's at the lower gravity of the previous dilution. If a high-gravity beer is made, there are a lot of sugars left in the grain bed.

I assume that when fly sparging is done right, the grain bed is rinsed to a very low gravity.

Thanks for the explanation. I'll have to give it some thought. I'm not sure I agree with "After lauter, the grain bed is saturated with sugars at the same gravity as the first runnings", but I'm not ready to discount it, either.