Why all grain?

well, next time you're in there, ask if they make custom extract from scratch, or if they're just blending commercial extracts.

making extract isn't exactly an on-demand process. it takes a bit of time.

Grinder12000 said:

Just quoting BYO magazine. I do not know where they get their numbers but most competitions post the recipes of winners.

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no....that's not what i was getting at.

you basically said "I don't think AG makes better beer cause they only win 80% of the time".

which, is a pretty silly statement to make.

Moot brewer. I did not say anything even close to that. Are you on crack?

cfonnes said:

If you do not know what kind of malt goes in to dark DME how is your LHBS making the DME?

If you selected what kind of grain goes into a DME and then the LHBS makes it, I would think that you would know what kind of grain is going into it.

Is this what is happening, you ask the LHBS to make you DME with say 6 lbs of wheat and 1 lb of dark?

You know what is happening right? The LHBS is mixing 6 lbs of wheat DME with 1 lb of dark DME.

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I've only bought the DME, but my gf's sister(who got me into brewing) is doing a brewing project with people at an old folks home and she was talking to the guy there for awhile about it and he said they make their own.

EDIT:

I just called them to confirm..and you are right..they buy their extract from another source and they will just mix together what you want. I guess she was talking to the wrong person! My bad!

nope, just reading what you wrote

Grinder12000 said:

IN THEORY AG can make a better beer but in practice I'm not seeing it. 20% of gold medal winners, according to BYO are Extract brewers.

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All I'm saying is that AG brewers have a very high And false opinion of their craft. Extract brewers are looked down on.

It's the brewer that makes the beer, not the technique.

You did notice that period right. End of a thought and o to a new o e. sorry. No paragraph. My bad.

And I rest my case.

Grinder12000 said:

I find it funny when I hear AG brewers say " because we have so much control". And then how MOST AG brewers completely disregard their water profile or skipping steps and making inferior beer then an extract brewer doing everything right?

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more control doesn't mean better quality, it means more control. We don't all use the same yeast because they impart different flavors.
AG allows playing with grains to a similar effect. More control.
You can make pancakes from a mix or from scratch. Neither is going to save you if your pan is too hot, but you have more control baking from scratch because all else is equal outside ingredients.

Weizer said:

I've only bought the DME, but my gf's sister(who got me into brewing) is doing a brewing project with people at an old folks home and she was talking to the guy there for awhile about it and he said they make their own. They also confirmed it last time I went in to buy a handful of random beers.

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they may make their own extract. but, they probably make 4/5 different types in bulk, then mix at retail.

you couldn't walk up to them and say, make me an extract of:

80% MO
10% C60
5% Special B
4% Chocolate
1% Roasted barley

i hope that sums to 100%....

Grinder12000 said:

You did notice that period right. End of a thought and o to a new o e. sorry. No paragraph. My bad.

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fair enough.

People here, on this forum are much much better then the other 95% of brewers. So my comments are geared to those 95%. Not HBT members.

motobrewer said:

they may make their own extract. but, they probably make 4/5 different types in bulk, then mix at retail.

you couldn't walk up to them and say, make me an extract of:

80% MO
10% C60
5% Special B
4% Chocolate
1% Roasted barley

i hope that sums to 100%....

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Yup, I just misunderstood I guess. You're 100% right.

usfmikeb said:

Yep, bulk buys. Paying about $35 a sack.

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Cool, I assumed that, but had no idea what the going rate for a sack at wholesale was.

Not that I'll get there any time soon, but good to know. Thanks!

I read through this entire thread and was amused throughout the whole read.

Weizer said:

Yup, I just misunderstood I guess. You're 100% right.

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Well that will give you a better understanding of the flexibility of all-grain brewing. There are basically 6 different types of extract that you can mix and match - so not too many possible combinations. With all-grain you have a few dozen types of base grain and dozens and dozens of specialty grains resulting in exponentially more combinations vs extract brewing.

You can do mini-mashes which is basically extract + steeping specialty grains which will give you a little more options but at the end of the day, all-grain has the most options.

rhamilton said:

Well that will give you a better understanding of the flexibility of all-grain brewing. There are basically 6 different types of extract that you can mix and match - so not too many possible combinations. With all-grain you have a few dozen types of base grain and dozens and dozens of specialty grains resulting in exponentially more combinations vs extract brewing.

You can do mini-mashes which is basically extract + steeping specialty grains which will give you a little more options but at the end of the day, all-grain has the most options.

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And that is why I joined this forum, I learn something everyday

The brewers job is to make the best wort possible for a specific beer style. The yeasty beasties are the ones that make the beer. If you use extract, half the work is done for you. It's like sticking a frozen dinner in the oven vs making it from scratch

Just because half the work is done for you does not make it a worse product.

Stoufers Lasagna is much much better then most people can make.

I bet there are more bad AG brewers then mini mashers percentage wise.

Grinder12000 said:

Just because half the work is done for you does not make it a worse product.

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Notice how the tone of this thread changed after you got up on your soapbox? The OP asked for feedback on why other brewers chose to go AG, and people are providing context. You come off as a total tool with a chip on his shoulder. Quit trolling...

Grinder12000 said:

Just because half the work is done for you does not make it a worse product.

Stoufers Lasagna is much much better then most people can make.

I bet there are more bad AG brewers then mini mashers percentage wise.

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I didn't say it was a better product, but some of us like to cook from scratch. I enjoy the process as much as drinking the final product. I would be bored out my mind doing extract forever. Just my opinion...

I guess for me, I don't brew beer just for beer, I brew to brew--if that makes any sense. Mixing extract in water skips the most foundational part of brewing, in my opinion. But hey, for each his own, and if people love extract brewing then that's cool with me.

+1 to flabyboy
I enjoy the additional time spent in the brewery. AG exponentially increased my man time. Pretty much the only reason I switched. 😜

Usfmike. It is something that,REALLY bugs me. As a mini masher and running a home brew club I see AG arrogance all the time. AG brewers CAN make a better beer. But I see so many make an inferior brew but then look down at anybody that uses extract.

So I'm sorry. I'm not anti AG at all and totally understand why someone would go AG.

As flabbyboy says , he would get bored with extract, makes sense. Heck , i research DME and know what is in each extract. I work the warer when everyone says its needless with extracts. I obsess more then most extract brewers. People here on HBT care and obsess over their product.

AG is much better IF a brewer knows what to do with all the extra things you must do.

Newton. You do not know how to brew extract if that is how you really feel. But you are a much better brewer then I am. Im just saying as an extract brewer I know a ton more about brewing then a lot of AG brewers THAT ARE NOT HBT forum readers.

Done on the subject. Sorry guys

i just used "picnic table" as a unit of length.

just sayin'

i extract brewed for almost 3 years and then made the switch to AG. I really enjoy the process more, it's more fun for me. but in my opinion, the biggest improvement I saw in my brew was moving to full boils. I did two extract batches full boil before moving to AG, and they were the best beers I had made up until that point. Do AG for the fun of it, and if you don't like it, all you've invested in is a mash tun

I think it's unfortunate that the HB world is so often glibly divided by extract/all grain. "What kind of brewer are you? Grain or Extract?" The question just misses so much. I've tasted dozens of flaws in samples at my homebrew club. Almost none of them were introduced by the method of producing wort. 80% are on the cold side, and the bulk of the remainder come from water problems. The only beer flaw I've seen that is derived from the production of extract is overattenuation from a failure to mashout or from just letting the mash or wort temp drop too much. Going all grain isn't going to help any of those flaws. For many brewers, going all grain is just a side road on the way to learning to brew, because it delays their focusing on the yeast and fermentation, where the rubber really hits the road.

I'm relatively new to all-grain (7 batches) but the main points I like about it versus extract is:
1. More options, ALL the different grains to mash, mash temps for malt profile, etc. its a lot to play with, and i am enjoying learning as I try different stuff.
2. I'm a hands on kind of guy, so it was the best way to get more of the true brewing experience, and be more involved in the process.
3. Cost per batch. My all-grain batches are about $15-$20 less per batch, compared to extract versions, the recipe i converted and remade was $20 less.
4. Quality - I really think the all grain beer i have made is overall better than the extract brews i have done.

The cost to switch to All-grain brewing was minimal, and with the savings over extract, the equipment has paid for itself. I spent $80 on a bigger kettle, and $25 to convert a cooler. I havent switched to a tiered setup or anything, i just do a lot of lifting.

Went from doing kit beers to doing all-grain. I never really had an interest in extract. For one, the LHBS didn't have much of a selection of extract. Mainly though, I wanted to be able to build my own recipes and have control over the whole process due to a desire to go pro.

Kate00 said:

I'm relatively new to all-grain (7 batches) but the main points I like about it versus extract is:
1. More options, ALL the different grains to mash, mash temps for malt profile, etc. its a lot to play with, and i am enjoying learning as I try different stuff.
2. I'm a hands on kind of guy, so it was the best way to get more of the true brewing experience, and be more involved in the process.
3. Cost per batch. My all-grain batches are about $15-$20 less per batch, compared to extract versions, the recipe i converted and remade was $20 less.
4. Quality - I really think the all grain beer i have made is overall better than the extract brews i have done.

The cost to switch to All-grain brewing was minimal, and with the savings over extract, the equipment has paid for itself. I spent $80 on a bigger kettle, and $25 to convert a cooler. I havent switched to a tiered setup or anything, i just do a lot of lifting.

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+1

let me add some downsides too,

1. Stuck mashes, rare but they suck
2. Not hitting OG, very temp/GLP sensitive
3. Time, additional 1.5 hrs
4. Cost of initial investment

Dhruv6911 said:

+1

let me add some downsides too,

1. Stuck mashes, rare but they suck
2. Not hitting OG, very temp/GLP sensitive
3. Time, additional 1.5 hrs
4. Cost of initial investment

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If you brew in a bag, #1 and #4 aren't really issues.

I love the thought process behind saving $20-$40 a batch with AG vs EB as an "argument" for pros/cons.

You all forget the first rule of economics........

Time=Money.

So if your brew day increases by four hours, those four hours spent brewing other than doing something else have their own cost.

Its not a matter if you enjoy the extra time spent doing AG, it simply can't be left out when calculating cost per batch.

As I AG brew, I like the idea that what I'm doing is an (nearly) exact scaled down version of a brewpub or brewery. Plus it blows away non-brewers when I show off my garage setup!

Be careful, AG brewing can make you cocky, not necessarily make it taste better

udt89 said:

I love the thought process behind saving $20-$40 a batch with AG vs EB as an "argument" for pros/cons.

You all forget the first rule of economics........

Time=Money.

.

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I disagree with this because it is a hobby. I don't see a longer brew day being a burden. Maybe some do, but it just means I have an extra 2 hrs to hangout with my friends and drink beer

udt89 said:

I love the thought process behind saving $20-$40 a batch with AG vs EB as an "argument" for pros/cons.

You all forget the first rule of economics........

Time=Money.

So if your brew day increases by four hours, those four hours spent brewing other than doing something else have their own cost.

Its not a matter if you enjoy the extra time spent doing AG, it simply can't be left out when calculating cost per batch.

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This would be true if you would be working another job during the extra time from AG brewing. I usually don't get paid to do household chores, play with kids or watch the TV.

flabyboy said:

This would be true if you would be working another job during the extra time from AG brewing. I usually don't get paid to do household chores, play with kids or watch the TV.

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It's true if you assume your time to be anything other than worthless.

danorocks17 said:

I disagree with this because it is a hobby. I don't see a longer brew day being a burden. Maybe some do, but it just means I have an extra 2 hrs to hangout with my friends and drink beer

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I have to agree with this, time spent doing something that you enjoy is a plus not a minus. There is a lot of slack time during a brew day (mash, boil, water heating) which I spend doing other things, reading the newspaper, hanging with friends, tieing flys, etc...

Sure time = money, and sure all-grain takes extra time... But that whole mashing process, I certainly don't sit with the lid on my mash tun open with a big magnifying glass trying to observe starch conversions for an hour... I waste that hour doing other things... like watching TV, or throwing a tennis ball against the wall. You know... productive things...

I have to disagree with the Time = Money thing.

I personally work to live, to enjoy life and friends and family. You can't put a dollar value on time, the people you share it with will (for the most part) realize just how valuable it is. When you give the gift of a homebrewed beverage you are giving someone something that you invested your time in making.

Brewing is a hobby, something we do because it's relaxing and enjoyable. Hobbies are good, because dropping dead of a massive heart attack or stroke at a young age because we do nothing but work and get stressed out doesn't sound like a great idea.

If you want to take it to the obvious extreme, why brew at all, in terms of time/money it's cheaper to just buy commercial beer and learn to like it. In my experience however, the gift of something you make/grow/cook/etc. yourself is always appreciated a little bit more.

If youre cost/savings and time analysis when it comes to brewing, youre missing the point

I do BIAB all grain and sometimes partials. I just love the process in and of itself. If thats not your thing and you enjoy extract brewing then thats cool too. At the end of the day, there are home brewers and non-home brewers. Period.

udt89 said:

I love the thought process behind saving $20-$40 a batch with AG vs EB as an "argument" for pros/cons.

You all forget the first rule of economics........

Time=Money.

So if your brew day increases by four hours, those four hours spent brewing other than doing something else have their own cost.

Its not a matter if you enjoy the extra time spent doing AG, it simply can't be left out when calculating cost per batch.

Click to expand...

Just like flabyboy said - unless I'm brewing instead of working - it's worth the time. Of course, what you value time as is the real reason. Is it fun to spend an extra couple hours with AG instead of doing something else - family time, tv time, going somewhere....but if you have previous plans - you work around it. I don't work on Saturdays or Sundays - so AG doesn't "cost me" anything other than family time and I make sure I make time for that....but there is also me time too.

But as to being $20 cheaper....you're not making 5 gal batches. Kits only cost $30-40 + shipping. If you buy more than 1 kit or the ingredients, you can spread out the shipping costs and it costs less on a batch basis. Some of the NB kits vs all-grain are not that much different in terms of cost. In that case, if the taste is almost the same - I'll go with the extract kit because the cost and taste differences don't outweigh the time difference.

Lots of things to think about.