Wheat/Weisse/Hefeweizen recipe help

I've seen all the recipes in the database but they lack flavor descriptions. I'm looking for a hefeweizen style all-grain recipe that's fuity, crisp and has a slight citric snap to it...NO BANANAS though. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

dstar26t said:

I've seen all the recipes in the database but they lack flavor descriptions. I'm looking for a hefeweizen style all-grain recipe that's fuity, crisp and has a slight citric snap to it...NO BANANAS though. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

(damnit...spelled hefeweizen wrong in the title!)

Click to expand...

I've made several all-grain hefes. Here are my general guidelines for getting something authentic.

-at least 50% wheat in the grist
-use a real weizen yeast
-ferment at 65F to avoid banana flavor (but you can't have 'estery/fruity' w/o some banana flavor unless you add extracts or something)
-do a decoction or two during the mash
-use a noble hop and go easy on it (almost no flavor/aroma hopping).
-don't bother with irish moss or finings
-don't bother racking to secondary

Instead of decoction, can I step mash to get the same results? What temps to hit?

WY3068 yeast?

dstar26t said:

Instead of decoction, can I step mash to get the same results? What temps to hit?

WY3068 yeast?

Click to expand...

Yikes, i forgot - a 15 minute rest at 100F is crucial to avoid a stuck mash. Throw in a couple handfuls of rice hulls to be safe. A thinner mash is OK, i.e a 3/2 ratio (quarts/lbs).

I last used:

15-20 min @ 100F
15-20 min @ 120F

...then I did a double decoction. A basic sacch rest should work though, e.g.

30-60 min @ 152F

then 10 min @ 168F. I wouldn't skip mash out.

I do prefer the weihenstephaner smack pack (WY3068) for authenticity.

dstar26t said:

I've seen all the recipes in the database but they lack flavor descriptions. I'm looking for a hefeweizen style all-grain recipe that's fuity, crisp and has a slight citric snap to it...NO BANANAS though. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

(damnit...spelled hefeweizen wrong in the title!)

Click to expand...

What you'd be looking for is a normal wheat beer recipe, but replace the german/bavarian/belgian yeast with an american wheat yeast like whitelabs, or even replace it all together with an all purpose ale yeast like danstar nottingham or whitelabs american ale blend/east coast ale/california or california v ale, I've used all of these in my american wheat with great results. I ended with a beer similar to bells oberon with the east coast ale yeast, and thats kind of what i was aiming for. I also use citrusy american hops like cascade and centennial in small proportions in my wheat beer as well.

Edit: I just read that oberon uses saaz hops, I guess its not "just like it" but close enough for me and thats really all that matters.

If you don't want banana flavor don't use a hefe yeast. Use something like Wyeast 1056 (American ale yeast). I use it for my summer wheat beer and it gives a low fruity, dry crisp character to the beer.

Dr Malt

dstar26t said:

.... fuity, crisp and has a slight citric snap to it...NO BANANAS ....

Click to expand...

Most of the hefe's I've tasted have at least a little banana.
Maybe you should look for an American Wheat recipe.

+1 on warmer fermentation = more bananas.

I might use something other than WLP300 in my next batch,
probably WLP100.

I had Victory's Mad King Weisse the other day and liked that a lot for a lighter beer. I'm assuming they used a hefe yeast because there was banana but very very muted.

http://www.hbd.org/brewery/library/EstFormAW0696.html

...interesting bit about aeration severely inhibiting ester production. That would suggest that if you did use a hefe yeast, you should aerate heavily before pitching AND ferment at the low end of the temp range. You could also use a non-weizen yeast, but then it's off-style... which may or may not matter to you.

Wyeast also states on their website that increasing pitch rates reduces ester production.

dstar26t said:

I'm looking for a hefeweizen style all-grain recipe that's fuity, crisp and has a slight citric snap to it...NO BANANAS though.

Click to expand...

I like to add some rye malt to hefeweizen, it gives pleasent tartness.
If you don' like bananas (what's wrong with bananas ), try to overhelm the flavour with others: the tartness (rye!), or the clove - make ferulic break at ~42C.

or the clove - make ferulic break at ~42C.

Click to expand...

Huh???

And what percentage of rye gives a hint of tartness? Other than real bananas, I really don't like the flavor...such as in gum, pudding or hefeweizens.

dstar26t said:

And what percentage of rye gives a hint of tartness? Other than real bananas, I really don't like the flavor...such as in gum, pudding or hefeweizens.

Click to expand...

here:
http://www.beertools.com/html/recipe.php?view=7078
you have my best recipe for rye-hefeweizen

The ferulic-acid-rest you should make as first, at ~104-110F (damn, I can't get used to those fahrenheits ), it promotes the creation a ferulic-acid, which is later converted by weizen yeast into wonderful clove flavour.

If you want to get away from the bananas you could try using WLP320 or WLP380.

dstar26t said:

Other than real bananas, I really don't like the flavor...such as in gum

Click to expand...

Wait a second, you said gum? Maybe you have mistaken the great banana flavour with the puckery bubble-gum flavour that you get, when you ferment weizens in too high temperatures?

Any banana flavor at all in a beer kinda turns me off.

Wow, thanks for the recipe.
How about adding some orange and lemon zest? Of will the hefe yeast add that itself?

dstar26t said:

How about adding some orange and lemon zest?

Click to expand...

Maybe you should consider brewing a belgian-style wheat beer (witbier). I think you might like it.

You could also hop with an American citrusy hop for a citrus hint. I did one that turned out well.

Instead of a decoction which hefes are supposed to be in need of, I have heard you can add a small bit of melanoiden malt to mimic the flavor produced by a decoction, then mash as usual.

dstar26t said:

Any banana flavor at all in a beer kinda turns me off...

Click to expand...

Then you don't want a Hefe Weizen. You want an American Wheat.

I made a simple extract Hefe with Wyeast 3068 fermented at 66-68F for 2 weeks and was dissappointed I didn't get much banana/fruity flavor.

are you looking for a true hefe or an american wheat? if amer, wheat, dude, had a good recipe for a watermelon wheat. i did 10 gal, in 2 5-gal batches at different times, slightly modified his recipe and they were great.

I was under the impression that a hefeweizen yeast would add much more flavor than an ale yeast. If I can control the banana by using the tricks posted in this thread, I'll definitely enjoy it.
Thanks for everyone's help!

Banana flavour it is an ester (isoamyl acetate), and AFAIK the clove flavour is not. If you discourage the yeast growth, you will minimize the ester production. That means, you should overpitch, but not too much and moderately oxygenate the wort. Fermentation should also be in lower range of temperatures.
In theory that may help, but I don't guarantee, I have never tried it. I like bananas

/\
l
l
l
l
l

That's the best advice your gonna get when it comes to controlling the yeast. Check www.mrmalty.com to see how much yeast you should pitch, then overdo it just slightly.

What would happen if I over pitch by a lot? I do that with lagers but that yeast settles out nicely by the end.
Mr. Malty shows a 1.79 Liter starter for the recipe so I should do a 2.5L?

dstar26t said:

What would happen if I over pitch by a lot? I do that with lagers but that yeast settles out nicely by the end.
Mr. Malty shows a 1.79 Liter starter for the recipe so I should do a 2.5L?

Click to expand...

Wise books say, that underpitching and high wort O2 levels boost ester formation. However same thing happens in poorly oxygenated wort. Overpitching seems not be be a big issue int the field of esters, so you may do the starter as big as you want.
Temperature of fermentation is more important.

Browsing WLP leaflet I've found this:
WLP830 - large clove and phenolic aroma and flavour, with minimal banana.
Looks like something for you.

Browsing WLP leaflet I've found this:
WLP830 - large clove and phenolic aroma and flavour, with minimal banana.
Looks like something for you.

Click to expand...

cool, thanks. I think you meant WLP380 though.

+1 on the belgian Wit. If you want a tart citrus note then the bitter orange and coriander in a belgian wit might suit you.

I found that decoction and protein rests are not necessary anymore even for Weissbier. I have successfully brewed them skipping that rest. In 2004, only 40% of the Weissbier breweries in Germany used decoction. Given the existing trend, this number might be lower now. Especially the big ones (whose beers you can get here) and now predominatly using infusion mashing for their Weissbiers. I still brew many of my Weissbiers with decoction though. It helps with getting to the various rests when mashing in a cooler.

The ferulic acid rest (45C/113F) helps in bringing out the clove, but to do it properly the mash pH needs to be above 5.7. Add acid malt after that rest to bring it down again. But even w/o this rest you get clove if the yeast is right. I found that WY3068/WLP300 and WLP351 are good producers of the clove character. The WLP351 seems less fruity.

To suppress the esters you need to pitch low (60-64F) and ferment cold (63 – 66F is a good range) and aerate/pitch as you would for other ales. I do however find conflicting information on the affect of aeration and pitching rate and their affect on the ester production. Some sources say higher pitching rates increase esters but others report the opposite.

Kai

Don't mean to threadjack, but I'm sort of in the same boat. I'm looking for a good extract recipe for an authentic wheat beer. The ingredients I have readily available are :

Wheat DME
Pils DME
Hallertau Hops
WLP300 yeast
Carapils
irish moss

I'd appreciate it if someone could point me to a recipe using the above ingredients that will get me something "close" to an Ayinger or Erdinger.

Boodlemania said:

I'd appreciate it if someone could point me to a recipe using the above ingredients that will get me something "close" to an Ayinger or Erdinger.

Click to expand...

Is the wheat DME 100% wheat or a 60/40 blend of wheat and pils?

If it is the 60/40 blend use that and the hops w/ one addition to get to about 10 IBU. For true Weissbier character, which Ayiner has, ferment with WLP300/WY3068 below 66-67F. To get an Erdinger type Weissbier ferment with WY1007 or anothe clean low flocculating yeast. Erdinger Weissbier hell, doesn't have any of the typical Weissbier aroma and taste characteristics. It's almost like an American Wheat hence the suggestion to use a non Weissbier yeast.

Kai

Kaiser said:

Is the wheat DME 100% wheat or a 60/40 blend of wheat and pils?

If it is the 60/40 blend use that and the hops w/ one addition to get to about 10 IBU. For true Weissbier character, which Ayiner has, ferment with WLP300/WY3068 below 66-67F. To get an Erdinger type Weissbier ferment with WY1007 or anothe clean low flocculating yeast. Erdinger Weissbier hell, doesn't have any of the typical Weissbier aroma and taste characteristics. It's almost like an American Wheat hence the suggestion to use a non Weissbier yeast.

Kai

Click to expand...

It's 100% wheat, I assume. It's Briess Bavarian Wheat DME. I also got Briess Pilsen DME.

So a 60/40 blend of Wheat/Pils is what I'd need? For a 5 gal batch, would that then be 4 lbs wheat and 2.67 lbs Pils? Also, no need for the Carapils?

As for the Hallertau bittering addition, assuming a nominal AA%, how many oz would I need? Note that I do 3 gallon boils.

Sorry for the laundry list of questions. I would greatly appreciate any help you can offer.

Briess wheat DME is a blend of wheat and barley malt (here is the spec). Most of the wheat malt extracts are blends of wheat and barley b/c it’s difficult to lauter 100% wheat. So use that extract to 100%. Add 60% at the beginning of the boil along with an ounce of Hallertauer. Add the remaining 40% malt extract 15 min before the end of the boil. Boil for 60 min. The late addition of malt extract aids the hop utilization as the wort will not be as high gravity for most of the boil. Chill to 64F, aerate and pitch the yeast.

Kai

Kaiser said:

The ferulic acid rest (45C/113F) helps in bringing out the clove, but to do it properly the mash pH needs to be above 5.7

Click to expand...

Interesting, I didn't know that.

Sometimes I see recipes, where ferulic rest is done only with wheat malts, rest of the grist is added later; does it have any sense?

Piotr said:

Sometimes I see recipes, where ferulic rest is done only with wheat malts, rest of the grist is added later; does it have any sense?

Click to expand...

It is a widespread misconception that wheat malt is the source of ferulic acid for Weissbiers. Even Jamil has that wrong on his show. But that is not true. In fact barley malt contains more ferulic acid than wheat malt, but not by much. The reason why German wheat beers exhibit the clove character is not the wheat but the use of a yeast that can convert ferulic acid into 4VG (the substance that gives it the clove/spiciness). Such yeasts are classified as POF+ (phenolic off flavor positive) and many Belgian yeasts belong to that group as well. Common ale and lager yeasts are not and hence no clove note in these beers. Just ferment an all barley beer with a Weissbier yeast. The resulting beer is called a Dampfbier in Germany (rather hard to find though) and you will get the clove note despite the lack of wheat in the grist.

Subjecting only a part of the grist to the ferulic acid rests may be beneficial if you want to reach the saccrification rest through hot water infusions as there will be a smaller mash volume that you start out with.

Edit: another reason to have only the wheat malt in the mash at low temps might be that it needs more enzymatic work done (glucanase, protein rest) at these temperatures, but I don't think that this is actually necessary.

Kai

Thank you Kaiser, you are a real treasury of great information.

Maybe you have some tips about hefeweizen hoping, to achieve this delicate, smooth flavour? What do you think about mash hoping, first wort hoping, or using old, stale hops?

I'm still creating this recipe...
Any opinions on using some carapils for head retention? Or does the wheat do that by itself? I'm also going to use a C-hop towards the end of the boil to get a little something extra. I've had good results in using carapils in IPAs to help bring out the hop flavor.

This turned out very tasty. Had some people over on saturday and it was gone in 2 hours.

Good Adweisse

5.5 gallon batch
Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.50 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 4.55 %
5.50 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 50.00 %
4.25 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 38.64 %
0.75 lb Rye Malt (4.7 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
0.25 oz Centennial [9.50 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 9.8 IBU
0.75 oz Centennial [9.50 %] (10 min) Hops 9.0 IBU
0.25 oz Lemon Zest (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.25 oz Orange Zest (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.50 oz Coriander Seed (Indian) (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Hefeweizen IV Ale (White Labs #WLP380) [Starter 1 gal] Yeast-Wheat

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.054 SG (1.044-1.052 SG)
Measured Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.013 SG (1.010-1.014 SG)
Measured Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Color: 4.0 SRM (2.0-8.0 SRM)
Bitterness: 18.8 IBU (8.0-15.0 IBU)
Alpha Acid Units: 2.4 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.44 % (4.30-5.60 %)
Actual Alcohol by Volume: 5.08 %
Actual Calories: 242 cal/pint


Mash Profile Name: SIMS, Medium Body, Split Batch Sparge
Mash Grain Weight: 11.00 lb Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Grain Temperature: 75.0 F Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
Sparge Water: 6.10 gal Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 3.41 gal of water at 109.4 F 105.0 F 20 min
Steam Heat to 122.0 F 20 min
Steam Heat to 150.0 F 90 min
Steam Heat to 168.0 F 10 min



Carbonation and Storage Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2)
Carbonation Volumes: 2.9 (2.5-2.9 vols)
Estimated Pressure: 16.0 PSI Kegging Temperature: 39.0 F
Pressure Used: Age for: 1.0 Weeks
Storage Temperature: 39.0 F


Notes:
76% efficiency. Steam/drain manifold stuck while sparging. Had to use a paint strainer bag in a bucket to finish sparging.
Fermented at 62F for 3 weeks.

This recipe scored a 35 at the recent War of the Worts
Lost points to being on the "lighter side of this style". If I were to enter it again, I'd mash higher. If I were to make it for myself again, it would stay the same.

Thanks for suggestions!