2nd All Grain - Way Undershot target gravity

Jukas · Mar 31, 2012

For my first AG brew I made Edworts Haus Pale Ale and while I undershot my mash temp everything else went well and I was within .002 of target OG.

I followed Ed's recipe to the letter and ended up a little low on volume into the fermenter. Then I read up on brewsmith and inputting equipment profiles and setup my equipment profiles in what I believed are correct.

Today I brewed an American Wheat based on a recipe I found here (posted below) and followed the water volumes suggested by brewsmith.

Target post boil OG should have been 1.047 and when I measured it I was at 1.032 a full 15 points under gravity, which means a 4.8% ABV will turn out around 3.3%

At this point I'm seriously considering dumping the batch, decanting & washing and storing the starter I made to save the $7 smack pack I wasted.

My thought is the water volumes are incorrect (11g total sounds like way too much to me) and I mashed/sparged with too much water for the available sugars in the grain.

I ended up with 9g in the kettle from first and second running with about 1 gallon I boiled off approximately 1 - 1.2g of water and reading tells me I should have lost about 1.25g to the deadspace in my Blichmann 15g BK.

Am I on the right track that the problem is likely in the equipment profile or is there some other factor I'm overlooking?

I'm grateful this happened on a $20 batch, rather than an expensive double IPA, but I'd really like to figure out the issue and get my process locked down.

Recipe: American Wheat TYPE: All Grain
Style: American Wheat or Rye Beer
---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 3.7 SRM SRM RANGE: 3.0-6.0 SRM
IBU: 19.0 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 15.0-30.0 IBUs
OG: 1.047 SG OG RANGE: 1.040-1.055 SG
FG: 1.011 SG FG RANGE: 1.008-1.013 SG
BU:GU: 0.400 Calories: 34.4 kcal/12oz Est ABV: 4.8 %
EE%: 72.00 % Batch: 6.00 gal Boil: 9.04 gal BT: 60 Mins

---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8.0 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 4.5 %
5 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 50.0 %
4 lbs 8.0 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3 40.9 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.5 %

Total Grain Weight: 11 lbs Total Hops: 1.40 oz oz.
---MASH PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 16.95 qt of water at 161.7 F 152.0 F 60 min

---SPARGE PROCESS---
>>>>>>>>>>-RECYCLE FIRST RUNNINGS & VERIFY GRAIN/MLT TEMPS: 70.0 F/72.0 F
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH
Batch sparge with 2 steps (2.00gal, 4.92gal) of 165.0 F water

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.35 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 5 15.7 IBUs

---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.038 SG Est OG: 1.047 SG
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.30 oz Centennial [10.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 3.3 IBUs
0.75 oz Centennial [10.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 7 0.0 IBUs

---FERM PROCESS-----------------------------
Primary Start: 03/31/2012 - 9.00 Days at 62.0 F
Secondary Start: 04/09/2012 - 10.00 Days at 65.0 F
Style Carb Range: 2.30-2.60 Vols
Bottling Date: 04/09/2012 with 2.3 Volumes CO2:
---NOTES------------------------------------

oakbarn · Mar 31, 2012

We do 16 gallon batches and we add an extra pound of 2 row. We adjust the volume to get the desired OG after total Mash out. As we have gotten better, we make 17 gallon batches. You could have just boiled it down prior to adding hops. The extra 2 row is insurance and not very expensive. Fo 5 gallons, maybe just and extra 1/3 pound would do. We have a 27 gallon fermenter so it makes it easy. With all the trub dumps and loss in lines, we get three 5 gallon Corney Kegs by this method. When we shot for 15 gallons, we ended up short every time. Since there are 3 of us, someone was short changed. Now we are Happy :tank:

Beerfly · Mar 31, 2012

Are you for sure cooling the sample to 60-70 area before taking a reading. When it is too warm it affects your reading a lot.

On my Beersmith profile I would have ended up at 1.047 as well. That would have been 5 1/2 gallons in my fermenter with a gallon left behind for trub and 65% entered as my efficiency. What were your post boil volumes?

Yooper · Mar 31, 2012

The first thing I'd look at is the crush of the wheat. I don't adjust my mill, and I notice that I have to crush wheat twice to get it to really crack. If the wheat wasn't crushed very well, that could explain your poor efficiency in this batch.

tektonjp · Mar 31, 2012

10.5 lbs of grain with 11 gallons of water? Something is definitely off here. That's why your gravity is so low.

tektonjp · Mar 31, 2012

Also, the original recipe looks to have boiled off 3 gallons? I might be reading that wrong, though.

Jukas · Mar 31, 2012

oakbarn said:
You could have just boiled it down prior to adding hops.

Yeah, that would have been a viable option had I checked a pre boil OG reading

Beerfly said:
Are you for sure cooling the sample to 60-70 area before taking a reading. When it is too warm it affects your reading a lot.

On my Beersmith profile I would have ended up at 1.047 as well. That would have been 5 1/2 gallons in my fermenter with a gallon left behind for trub and 65% entered as my efficiency. What were your post boil volumes?

I took the reading at 78F, but temp corrected for it. I ended up with 6.5 gallon (+/- a little) out of the BK which made me think the water volumes were too high.

Yooper said:
The first thing I'd look at is the crush of the wheat. I don't adjust my mill, and I notice that I have to crush wheat twice to get it to really crack. If the wheat wasn't crushed very well, that could explain your poor efficiency in this batch.

It's possible, though I remember seeing a fair amount of starchy/floury powder during the milling, I was kind of in a hurry so I didn't pay a ton of attention to it during the milling.

I still my water volumes are a part of it, as with the profile I had Beersmith estimated getting 6 gal into the fermenter and I ended up with at least 1/2 gallon extra.

Would that grainbill contain enough ferment able sugars to hit target volume with an extra gallon of sparge water?

I think at this point I need to run a test to confirm I have the deadspace calculated properly for the Mash Tun & BK. It's also possible that since it's colder than normal that my boiloff was less than the math formulas say it should be.

At this point with the gravity so low even for the style, I don't know what I could do to save this beer aside from boiling some DME and adding it to the wort. Problem is I don't have a primary big enough to hold the extra gallon of dme/wort.

JLem · Mar 31, 2012

Yooper said:
The first thing I'd look at is the crush of the wheat. I don't adjust my mill, and I notice that I have to crush wheat twice to get it to really crack. If the wheat wasn't crushed very well, that could explain your poor efficiency in this batch.

+1. I've had two batches where I was under 60% efficiency (I'm normally 72-74%). Both batches were my only two wheat beers. Wheat grains are smaller than barley grains so you need to use a smaller gap setting on the mill.

Jukas · Mar 31, 2012

Well, I've found part of my problem. I had my "loss to chiller & trub" set to 1.25g in my equipment profile. However I use an IC which should have minimal loss if any, and I just found specs on the blichmann 15g that say dead space is .19 gallon. I whirlpool after chilling and let sit for 20min before slowly draining into my fermenter. Which means that my total loss is probably .25g or less.

Adjusting the equipment profile brings the preboil volume to 8g and total water volume to 10.12g. I still wonder through, would that grainbill have enough ferment able sugars to support that much water and hit the target OG?

Beerfly · Apr 1, 2012

I don't understand BeerSmith and trub loss. It seems the more volume I plug in for what is poured down the drain at the end would increase the grain needs. Is it because the trub you throw away not considered to contain any of the sugars?

duboman · Apr 1, 2012

Beerfly said:
I don't understand BeerSmith and trub loss. It seems the more volume I plug in for what is poured down the drain at the end would increase the grain needs. Is it because the trub you throw away not considered to contain any of the sugars?

Trub loss is the amount of volume taken out of the equation at time of bottling to arrive at the absolute final volume of your batch. When everything including the yeast goes into the primary and then settles out during fermentation you are left with less actual liquid. So for example if you have 5 gallons to start in the primary and the hops, yeast, etc settle to the bottom as a turn/cake and takes up space at the bottom, that amount of space is deducted.

To dial this in on my system I marked the fermentor with a line at the top of the cake. When I was all done and cleaned the primary I then measured the the amount of water it took to reach that level and thus calculated what would be the trub loss. I hope I explained that reasonably well

Beerfly · Apr 1, 2012

duboman said:
Trub loss is the amount of volume taken out of the equation at time of bottling to arrive at the absolute final volume of your batch. When everything including the yeast goes into the primary and then settles out during fermentation you are left with less actual liquid. So for example if you have 5 gallons to start in the primary and the hops, yeast, etc settle to the bottom as a turn/cake and takes up space at the bottom, that amount of space is deducted.

To dial this in on my system I marked the fermentor with a line at the top of the cake. When I was all done and cleaned the primary I then measured the the amount of water it took to reach that level and thus calculated what would be the trub loss. I hope I explained that reasonably well

So you should only enter into BeerSmith your actual trubb and not the extra 1/2 gallon of beer I leave behind with it. If I did enter that extra 1/2 gallon into BeerSmith, the program would add another 1/2 gallon of water to my recipe thus lowering my actual SG.

Jukas · Apr 1, 2012

Beerfly said:
I don't understand BeerSmith and trub loss. It seems the more volume I plug in for what is poured down the drain at the end would increase the grain needs. Is it because the trub you throw away not considered to contain any of the sugars?

duboman said:
Trub loss is the amount of volume taken out of the equation at time of bottling to arrive at the absolute final volume of your batch. When everything including the yeast goes into the primary and then settles out during fermentation you are left with less actual liquid. So for example if you have 5 gallons to start in the primary and the hops, yeast, etc settle to the bottom as a turn/cake and takes up space at the bottom, that amount of space is deducted.

There are two different volumes in the BeerSmith equipment profile

'Loss to trub & chiller'
'Fermenter Loss'

According to this thread on the beersmith forums

Fermenter Loss

As beer ferments, quite a lot of sediment etc collects at the bottom of the fermenter. Most people underestimate this loss. In our profile we will allow some breathing space, however the upside is it will allow you to establish your real equipment losses faster and easier. It will also mean that you should be able to just transfer clear wort and beer rather than cloudy muck into your bottles/kegs. So, I am going to allow 0.5 gallons or 1.89 litres for this. Type this into the 'Fermenter Loss' field.

Loss to Trub and Chiller

At the end of an all-grain boil there will be what is known as 'kettle trub'. This consists of hop break and other types of solids and debris. It is regarded as best practice to avoid putting these solids into your fermenter as much as possible so we need to make an allowance for this. Some brewers use advanced trub management techniques to make this loss very low. Whirlpooling, hop socks and filters are ways of achieving this. Most new all-grainers make the mistake of under-estimating their losses to trub. These can be extremely high when no trub management techniques are used. I am going to allow for quite a large 'Loss to Trub and Chiller,' however in some cases including very hoppy brews, this loss to trub and chiller may not be high enough. Type in 1.25 gal or 4.73 L.

I've adjusted my 'loss to trub & chiller' down to .25g as the blichmann spec says it has .19g deadspace. It would have been a lot clearer hd they changed the 'Loss to trub & Chiller' label to something like 'Kettle Deadspace & Loss'.

Beerfly · Apr 2, 2012

I understand what has been said but my issue is with compensation. If for example I make a batch and set it at 1/2 gallon trubb loss, BeerSmith adds 1/2 gallon to my water required. Now at the end of my boil I see 1 gallon of trubb loss instead, if I tell BeerSmith, it will add another 1/2 gallon. My SG is already correct so if I add more water that will lower my SG.

duboman · Apr 2, 2012

Beerfly said:
I understand what has been said but my issue is with compensation. If for example I make a batch and set it at 1/2 gallon trubb loss, BeerSmith adds 1/2 gallon to my water required. Now at the end of my boil I see 1 gallon of trubb loss instead, if I tell BeerSmith, it will add another 1/2 gallon. My SG is already correct so if I add more water that will lower my SG.

Since you know all your volumes you do not need BS to automatically calculate your boil volume so uncheck that box, that is where the problem lies I believe.

airving · Apr 2, 2012

I'd suggest putting some water into the kettle, draining as best as you can as you would on brew day and then measure the exact amount remaining by pouring it from the kettle into a measuring cup / jug. If nothing else, this will baseline your loss volume. If it's .25 gallons, great. If it's 1.25, well, at least you'll be able to account for it.

Beerfly · Apr 3, 2012

airving said:
I'd suggest putting some water into the kettle, draining as best as you can as you would on brew day and then measure the exact amount remaining by pouring it from the kettle into a measuring cup / jug. If nothing else, this will baseline your loss volume. If it's .25 gallons, great. If it's 1.25, well, at least you'll be able to account for it.

Correct, I can account for it and BeerSmith will add more water to my recipe to compensate. Problem is it doesn't add more grain so SG will come in low with the added water.

airving · Apr 4, 2012

Do you have or have you considered a dip tube on the inside of your kettle, to pull a bit more of your wort out?

Otherwise, agreed. Any liquid left behind with sugars equates to more grain upfront to get the same gravity into your fermenter.

Beerfly · Apr 4, 2012

airving said:
Do you have or have you considered a dip tube on the inside of your kettle, to pull a bit more of your wort out?

Otherwise, agreed. Any liquid left behind with sugars equates to more grain upfront to get the same gravity into your fermenter.

That is a good idea, I was thinking of some type of braided hose set up like in my mash tun.

soundsandsuds · Apr 5, 2012

It sounds like you need to leave the loss amounts where they are and lower your expected efficiency.

Jukas · Apr 5, 2012

soundsandsuds said:
It sounds like you need to leave the loss amounts where they are and lower your expected efficiency.

Was this directed to me? I would have assumed so but others have started to interject their experiences into the thread so it's hard to be sure.

I needed to do both. My losses especially to "trub and chiller" were way to high, a trial run and a brew shows me that .25g for that loss is just about perfect. My mash tun loss at .8 is still too high after my last brew. I've lowered it to .5 and will continue to tweak it on subsequent brews. My bailiff at 1.5g / hr is also .25g high for this time of year based on my last brew. I'll clone my profile to spring, summer, fall and winter profiles so I can get each on dialed in for boil off by time of year.

That also leaves my efficiency. Based on the crush I'm getting from my lhbs I plan on lowering my brew house efficiency to 65% and adjusting from there based on outcome from actual brew sessions.

evandena · Apr 5, 2012

Beerfly said:
That is a good idea, I was thinking of some type of braided hose set up like in my mash tun.

A braided hose won't help you here, as it will loose suction at your valve level. Look at making a dip or pickup tube.

2nd All Grain - Way Undershot target gravity

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