Brewing water for Black IPA

Here is the recipe from NB for Black IPA:

MASH INGREDIENTS
-- 11.5 lbs. Rahr 2-row pale
--.5 lbs. Briess Caramel 80L
--.375 lbs. Weyermann Dehusked Carafa III
--.375 lbs. English Chocolate Malt

BOIL ADDITIONS & TIMES
-- 1 oz. Summit (60 min)
-- 1 oz. Chinook (15 min) 1 oz.
-- Centennial (10 min) 1 oz.
-- Cascade (5 min) 1 oz.
-- Centennial (0 min)
-- 1 lb Corn sugar (0 min)
DRY HOPS – add to secondary fermenter one week before packaging:
-- 1 oz. Cascade

Mash at 152F for 60min at 1.57qt/lb

I plan on using RO water and building my water from scratch roughly based on the primer using Kaiser's water spreadsheet; here are the numbers:

Additions per five gallon strike water:
1 gram Gypsum
3 grams Calcium Chloride
12 grams Chalk (undissolved CaCO3) added to mash

Calcium - 140.2 mg/L
Sulfate - 22.6 mg/L
Chloride - 58.7 mg/L
Bicarbonate - 296.9 mg/L
Alkalinity - 527.2 alkalinity ppm as CaCO3
RA - 310.3 ppm as CaCO3
pH shift from DI pH - .25
estimated mash pH - 5.40 @ 77F

These salt additions are only added to the strike water (5 gal)

My question is does this look appropriate for a BlackIPA with lots of late addition hops and some dark grains. I'm still very new at water calculations but the bicarbonates seem pretty high.

If I need to change anything what should I do? What do most of you who use RO water add when making dark beers. I know the primer said to add one tsp of CaCl2 but didn't know if you guys do something different when making your hoppy and dark beers.

If you need any additional info please let me know

Thanks!

Doesn't look correct to me. The calcium content is higher than necessary and the alkalinity seems way too high which produces a RA that is too high. Chalk is an unreliable alkalinity producer. Pickling Lime is more certain, but it is much stronger and requires careful measurement and addition.

The EZ water calculator results in the following (1.5 qt/lb mash) for just 2 grams of CaCl and 2 grams of CaSO4 per 5 gallons of treated water. Estimated mash pH of 5.44.

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 53
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 51
SO4: 59
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.86

Grain Weight Color Distilled water mash pH
Base-2 Row (Rahr) 11.5 0 5.56
Crystal Malt 0.5 80 4.82
Roasted/Toasted Malt 0.375 0 4.71
Roasted/Toasted Malt 0.375 0 4.71

mabrungard said:

Doesn't look correct to me. The calcium content is higher than necessary and the alkalinity seems way too high which produces a RA that is too high. Chalk is an unreliable alkalinity producer. Pickling Lime is more certain, but it is much stronger and requires careful measurement and addition.

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Not sure where to get pickling lime nor how much to use. But I need a way to get the PH up to around 5.4 and without the 12 grams of chalk it only comes out to 5.1 which is way too low.

I could decrease the CaCl2 to 2 grams and Gypsum to 1 gram and that will bring the Ca down to 129 and sulfate to 22.6, but the RA is still 196.4 and alkalinity is 316.3. Does anyone know what the alkalinity should be for a BlkIPA?

I think you need to get your sulfates higher to help accentuate the hops

Well, ditch the chalk for sure because it won't dissolve. But your alkalinity is WAY too high.

cooper said:

But I need a way to get the PH up to around 5.4 and without the 12 grams of chalk it only comes out to 5.1 which is way too low.

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Don't mash the Carafa or choc malt. This eliminates its effect on mash pH.

For flavor:
Steep it separately in 155F water, then add it when you runoff.

For color only:
Steep it overnight in 1qt/lb of cold water and add at the runoff.

With the other salts and the C80, your pH will prolly be ~ 5.4-5.5

Yooper said:

Well, ditch the chalk for sure because it won't dissolve. But your alkalinity is WAY too high.

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That's the chalk driving it up. What do you do for your water when brewing a Black IPA?

RCCOLA said:

Don't mash the Carafa or choc malt. This eliminates its effect on mash pH.

For flavor:
Steep it separately in 155F water, then add it when you runoff.

For color only:
Steep it overnight in 1qt/lb of cold water and add at the runoff.

With the other salts and the C80, your pH will prolly be ~ 5.4-5.5

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This would be something I'd try but when you order a kit from NB they mix all the grains into one bag so seperation is not an option at this point.

cooper said:

That's the chalk driving it up. What do you do for your water when brewing a Black IPA?

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Same as most other beers, actually. Since I have a high alkalinity naturally, I use a mix of RO water and my tap water (to lower my alkalinity) and add some CaCl2 (very little) and some gypsum (again, not much). I've NEVER had a too-low pH, in fact usually the opposite. I think you'd be fine with bringing your calcium into range (50 ppm) and the chloride and sulfate both in the 50s. Ignore the Cl:SO4 ratio and that is meaningless, and try to get your mash pH at 5.4-5.6 at room temperature.

If using RO water, I'd suggest 2 grams of each the CaCl2 and CaS04 to the mash and sparge with 100% RO water. That should do it.

Yooper said:

Same as most other beers, actually. Since I have a high alkalinity naturally, I use a mix of RO water and my tap water (to lower my alkalinity) and add some CaCl2 (very little) and some gypsum (again, not much). I've NEVER had a too-low pH, in fact usually the opposite. I think you'd be fine with bringing your calcium into range (50 ppm) and the chloride and sulfate both in the 50s. Ignore the Cl:SO4 ratio and that is meaningless, and try to get your mash pH at 5.4-5.6 at room temperature.

If using RO water, I'd suggest 2 grams of each the CaCl2 and CaS04 to the mash and sparge with 100% RO water. That should do it.

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Thanks for all your help Yooper, I really appreciate it. Thanks to everyone else who responded as well. Getting the water correct for the style is something that you learn from doing different batches and seeing what turns out. I'll start punching numbers into the water calculation spreadsheet and try to get the calcium, chloride, and sulfate into the 50ppm range.

I have very soft water, being in Portland, and I brew a lot of CDA. I started out with no water treatment, and then tried playing with it over a few batches. I agree with what Yooper said, my CDA's (I mash all the dark grains to get full flavor) taste best with SO4 and Cl ~ 40ppm, Ca ~ 25ppm leaving me at ~ 70ppm as HCO3.

The important thing, in my opinion, is not to go crazy. I did for one batch and it just wasn't right. I prefer erring on the side of caution, and my judge friends agreed.

trigger said:

I have very soft water, being in Portland, and I brew a lot of CDA. I started out with no water treatment, and then tried playing with it over a few batches. I agree with what Yooper said, my CDA's (I mash all the dark grains to get full flavor) taste best with SO4 and Cl ~ 40ppm, Ca ~ 25ppm leaving me at ~ 70ppm as HCO3.

The important thing, in my opinion, is not to go crazy. I did for one batch and it just wasn't right. I prefer erring on the side of caution, and my judge friends agreed.

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Thanks a lot for the input, I really appreciate everyone sharing how they set up their water for the style.

Here is what I got after making a few adjustments:

Additions per five gallon strike water:
1 gram Gypsum
.5 gram Epsom
1.7 grams Calcium Chloride
1 gram Baking Soda

Calcium - 36.7 mg/L a little high
Magnesium - 2.6 mg/L
Sodium - 14.4 mg/L
Sulfate - 39.7 mg/L
Chloride - 43.3 mg/L
Bicarbonate - 38.3 mg/L pretty low
Alkalinity - 31.4 alkalinity ppm as CaCO3
RA - 3.6 ppm as CaCO3
pH shift from DI pH - .25
estimated mash pH - 5.16 @ 77F

My only concern with this is the estimated mash pH. I'll definitely see where it's at during the mash but what should I do if it reads 5.16 after 20 minutes in the mash? Just let it go and see what the beer tastes like? I'm willing to bet that it doesn't get that low but I don't have a lot of experience brewing dark ales yet. I too agree that less is more when brewing beer so I don't want to go too crazy with any addition. Thanks again for all the help guys.

This might be a case where a little 5.2 stabilizer might give you some more buffering power and bring your ph up some.

tgmartin000 said:

This might be a case where a little 5.2 stabilizer might give you some more buffering power and bring your ph up some.

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Since that would be adding sodium, just adding more baking soda is a better idea and it adds more alkalinity to the wort than the 5.2 stuff. Pickling Lime is probably the best alkalinity increaser there is, but its very powerful and requires careful measurement and addition.

This is the final brewing water profile (mash + sparge water) for a CDA I did.

Ca - 52ppm
Mg - 16ppm
Na - 14ppm
Cl - 46ppm
SO4 - 56ppm

Cl/SO4 - 0.83 (balanced but favoring bitter)


It turned out tasting amazing. This is with a recipe involving 15.8oz of cascade (5 gallon batch)

Here is what I ended up doing:

Additions per five gallon strike water:
.5 gram Gypsum
.5 gram Epsom
1.7 grams Calcium Chloride
1 gram Baking Soda
3 grams Chalk to the mash

Calcium - 62.3 mg/L
Magnesium - 2.6 mg/L
Sodium - 14.4 mg/L
Sulfate - 25.0 mg/L
Chloride - 43.3 mg/L
Bicarbonate - 134.8 mg/L
Alkalinity - 110.5 alkalinity ppm as CaCO3
RA - 64.5 ppm as CaCO3
pH shift from DI pH - .09
estimated mash pH - 5.24 @ 77F (Actual pH was 5.57 @ 77F)

I brewed this up on Sat night (14 Jan 12) and put it in the bucket for primary fermentation as my 6.5 gal carboy is fermenting a lager right now. Last night I heard the airlock pop and went down to the basement to find a nice yeast splatter on the wall, none went on the ceiling which I counted as good luck so I attached a blow-off and within 10 mins krausen was being pushed through the tubing. It came in at 1.084 when I only wanted 1.075 for five gallons. I also wanted 5.5 gallons instead of 5 but I think I boiled a little too vigorously. Should be all right though and I'll let you guys know how it tastes.

I ran your grains & 5 gallons of RO water (1.57 qt/lb) with your salt additions and get 5.53 estimated pH at 77F with EZ Water Calc 3, assuming fully dissolved chalk, 5.51 with half of the chalk's potential.

Did you have acidulated malt/lactic acid in your inputs, actual additions that made your prediction much lower?

I don't have a pH meter "yet", but like to see what the spreadsheet predicts in cases where there's enough information to do so.

DSmith said:

I ran your grains & 5 gallons of RO water (1.57 qt/lb) with your salt additions and get 5.53 estimated pH at 77F with EZ Water Calc 3, assuming fully dissolved chalk, 5.51 with half of the chalk's potential.

Did you have acidulated malt/lactic acid in your inputs, actual additions that made your prediction much lower?

I don't have a pH meter "yet", but like to see what the spreadsheet predicts in cases where there's enough information to do so.

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I didn't have any acid malt figured in to the mash in the beginning but when I took a pH reading at 45 mins into the mash the pH was ~5.7 (from what I remember, I don't have the notes in front of me right now) so I calculated what 1% of the total grain bill would be and added that amount of acid malt for another 20 minutes and then checked the pH again and it came in at 5.57 at 78F which I thought was acceptable. I didn't check it at the boil or after the boil, maybe I should have but hopefully it'll turn out okay.

I'll agree that the spreadsheets are going to get you in the ballpark but you need to have things on hand to make those adjustments as you're mashing to get things closer. I'll also know for the next time to leave out the chalk and see where we're at and adjust if necessary.

What spreadsheet did you use to get estimated mash pH - 5.24 @ 77F?

DSmith said:

I ran your grains & 5 gallons of RO water (1.57 qt/lb) with your salt additions and get 5.53 estimated pH at 77F with EZ Water Calc 3, assuming fully dissolved chalk, 5.51 with half of the chalk's potential.

Did you have acidulated malt/lactic acid in your inputs, actual additions that made your prediction much lower?

I don't have a pH meter "yet", but like to see what the spreadsheet predicts in cases where there's enough information to do so.

Click to expand...

I used Kaiser water calculations for U.S. units located here:

Braukaiser.com - German brewing and more

Also when looking at the grain bill there's only about a pound of darker grains, and I think that contributed to the pH staying higher than what I thought it was going to do based on the spreadsheet calculations, but this was my first dark beer so I definitely got some notes to refer to for the next one.