Adjusting Pale Ale Bitterness

I recently brewed an all-Cascade pale ale (yes, it's a Mirror Pond Clone and yes I COULD buy it) that came out pretty good but was slightly more bitter than I anticipated. I would actually like to make this my house pale ale since it was well received. Anyway, my question is whether to dabble with the hopping schedule, water, conversion temp, carbonation rate (carbonic acid) etc. Sure, it would be easy to cut back the hop additions but that also means I'm sacrificing extra hop material that might contain some flavor. In terms of water, I guess I could cut back on the sulfate but maybe that will screw with something else. Maybe raising the mash temp will make the beer slightly sweeter. Maybe decreasing the carbonation rate and thereby decreasing the amount of carbonic acid. Has anyone dabbled with these things?

Anyway, I would like some input on where to start.

Here's my recipe and water profile. Any help or input would be greatly appreciated. TIA!

10 lbs 9.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM)
12.9 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM)
2.9 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 85.0 min
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 30.0 min
1.10 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 mins)
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins)
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 0.0 min
1.0 pkg English Ale (White Labs #WLP002)
0.75 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

Mash In Add 17.11 qt of water at 163.3 F 149.0 F 75 minutes

Water(ppm): Calcium-58; Magnesium-15; Sodium-11; Sulfate-115; Chloride-51; Bicarbonate-48

Target Carbonation Rate - 2.5 vols CO2

I would cut the 85 minute hop addition to 75 or 60 minute to cut the bittering down. If that still is not enough then you could back the .8 bittering addition to .5

If you are using a brewing software it is really simple to see how these changes affect your ibu's.

As Ive told other before YES. What ever you do will have some type of effect on the bitterness. I think your carbonation rate of 2.5 is pretty standard and I wouldn't adjust that.

Ill start off by saying I don't have the research in front of me nor am I claiming to be someone who is an expert. I do know that bittering hops from anywhere 85 min to 30 mins really do not contribute flavor just bitterness. Reducing or even eliminating the bitter hop at 85 and moving that hop addition to 60 mins would help with the bitterness with little to no flavor or aroma compromise. If you like the bitterness just the harshness of that late addition try first wort hopping.

You can play with your water adjustment and having your chloride and sulfates near equal. sounds like you understand what the water ratio for Sulfates to chloride do.

You have all good suggestions I would recommend just trying one and seeing what if you like it or not. I would start with the hop additions but if you don't want to do that play with the water adjustments.

Good luck your on the right track your just going to have to brew it tons of times to figure out what you like!!!

Just one note; moving an 85 min addition down to 60 or even lower doesn't change the bitterness until you get much lower like 45 or 30min.

try a First wort hop instead of 85 minutes addition
otherwise, move the 85 minutes addition to 30 minutes.

how many IBU do you get?

didinho said:

try a First wort hop instead of 85 minutes addition
otherwise, move the 85 minutes addition to 30 minutes.

how many IBU do you get?

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-85 minute addition gives me 22.4 IBU
-a FWH gives me 24.7

That small bump in IBUs is probably not worth mentioning and might smooth things out and produce what I'm looking for.

Ryat66 said:

-85 minute addition gives me 22.4 IBU
-a FWH gives me 24.7

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for sure FWH will smoothen the bitterness. but 22 or 24 IBU is low for a Pale ale, and is a level that can be reached with a late hop addition, maybe 20 minutes (with more hop obviously)

didinho said:

try a First wort hop instead of 85 minutes addition
otherwise, move the 85 minutes addition to 30 minutes.

how many IBU do you get?

Click to expand...

If it were me, I would make it a nice even ounce for a FWH, and then regular schedule from there.
Sounds exactly like my house ale recipe but with Perle for a FWH.

Ryat66 said:

-85 minute addition gives me 22.4 IBU
-a FWH gives me 24.7

That small bump in IBUs is probably not worth mentioning and might smooth things out and produce what I'm looking for.

Click to expand...

didinho said:

for sure FWH will smoothen the bitterness. but 22 or 24 IBU is low for a Pale ale, and is a level that can be reached with a late hop addition, maybe 20 minutes (with more hop obviously)

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That reference to IBU was for that hop addition only, the recipe is in the opening post. Total IBU is 41.

I had the same issue with a Kolsch style and I moved the 30 min to 10 min and then a flame out. That fixed the bitter and enhanced the citrus. I have since gotten a pump and counter flow chiller and now can whirlpool, what a process control this is.

All good stuff on this thread but probably the best advice I've seen is the reminder about FWH, I sort of forgot about that technique. Anyway, I played around with the hop schedule based on some of the advice and here's the schedule I am going to try on the next iteration of this brew:

Original Hop Schedule

0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 85.0 min; 22.7 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 30.0 min; 11.6 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min; 3.8 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 0.0 min; 0.0 IBUs
0.75 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Dry Hop


New Hop Schedule

1.00 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - First Wort 90.0 min; 31.2 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min; 6.0 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min; 4.7 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 0.0 min; 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Dry Hop

Once I settled on the first addition change, I started thinking the 30 minute addition was kind of odd (per hottpeper13's advice). So, I played around with that and settled on 15 minutes rather than 30 minutes. Overall, the new schedule has more hops but I think they're better placed. Also, I added an extra .25oz to dry hop as it doesn't make any sense to seal up .25oz of hops.

I might try to squeeze in a brew session next weekend, I will report back with results of the re-brew.

Looking forward to it and writing this recipe down to try if it works out.

looks good 4.5 total ounces of cascade hops sounds good!! Good luck

Take a look at Yooper's all cascade Pale Ale recipe: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=100304

This a nicely balanced pale ale. I keep it in my rotation at all times....

It calls for 60, 30, 10, 5, 0, dryhop

I do the 60m addition as FWH

jtratcliff said:

Take a look at Yooper's all cascade Pale Ale recipe: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=100304

This a nicely balanced pale ale. I keep it in my rotation at all times....

It calls for 60, 30, 10, 5, 0, dryhop

I do the 60m addition as FWH

Click to expand...

This is appealing simply because it's a 60 minute boil. I will probably try this after the rebrew on my current recipe. I enjoy these APAs that give some malt character, I like to save my hop showcasing for the IPAs.

Ryat66 said:

All good stuff on this thread but probably the best advice I've seen is the reminder about FWH, I sort of forgot about that technique. Anyway, I played around with the hop schedule based on some of the advice and here's the schedule I am going to try on the next iteration of this brew:

Original Hop Schedule

0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 85.0 min; 22.7 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 30.0 min; 11.6 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min; 3.8 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 0.0 min; 0.0 IBUs
0.75 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Dry Hop


New Hop Schedule

1.00 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - First Wort 90.0 min; 31.2 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min; 6.0 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 5.0 min; 4.7 IBUs
0.80 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Boil 0.0 min; 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [6.90 %] - Dry Hop

Once I settled on the first addition change, I started thinking the 30 minute addition was kind of odd (per hottpeper13's advice). So, I played around with that and settled on 15 minutes rather than 30 minutes. Overall, the new schedule has more hops but I think they're better placed. Also, I added an extra .25oz to dry hop as it doesn't make any sense to seal up .25oz of hops.

I might try to squeeze in a brew session next weekend, I will report back with results of the re-brew.

Click to expand...

Why an 85 minute hop addition, if you want to reduce bitterness?

I'd go with a 60 minute boil, with a 60 minute FWH addition, then a 15/5/0 schedule if you want a lot of hops "nose" and flavor.

Yooper said:

Why an 85 minute hop addition, if you want to reduce bitterness?

I'd go with a 60 minute boil, with a 60 minute FWH addition, then a 15/5/0 schedule if you want a lot of hops "nose" and flavor.

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Well, the original recipe I was following was CYBI's Mirror Pond Clone which was nothing more than a template to follow. In their interview with the brewer from Deschutes, I remember him pointing out a specific reason for the longer boil but I don't remember the actual reason. Personally I've only used 90 minute boils for recipes containing Pilsner.

I'm glad someone mentioned your recipe because I really love Cascade by itself! It has so much to offer and keeps things simple when it's time to buy the ingredients for the recipe. Anyway, I do have a question: I'm not questioning your grist but I would like to know the purpose of some of the malts in it. Mainly, could I go to all Munich or all Vienna just to simplify it a little bit? Have you made variations of it yourself?

Ryat66 said:

Well, the original recipe I was following was CYBI's Mirror Pond Clone which was nothing more than a template to follow. In their interview with the brewer from Deschutes, I remember him pointing out a specific reason for the longer boil but I don't remember the actual reason. Personally I've only used 90 minute boils for recipes containing Pilsner.

I'm glad someone mentioned your recipe because I really love Cascade by itself! It has so much to offer and keeps things simple when it's time to buy the ingredients for the recipe. Anyway, I do have a question: I'm not questioning your grist but I would like to know the purpose of some of the malts in it.

Click to expand...

Sure, I'm happy to answer. I am pretty sure that my answer won't be "because I had it to use up" in recipes that I've posted on the forum (instead of real life!) so I'm happy to answer any specific questions you may have.

I guess my advice for THIS recipe is simple. If you know why you're doing a 90 minute, or 85 minute, or 60 minute boil- do it! If you are only doing it because 'someone' (including me) said to, don't be afraid to question that advice.

Since you don't want more bittering, doing a shorter boil would be a good thing in this beer, at least in my eyes. There isn't a lot of isomerization between 60 minutes in 85 minutes, but it may be enough to make the beer 'too bitter' for you or for the people who drink your beer. That's something to consider.

Yooper said:

Sure, I'm happy to answer. I am pretty sure that my answer won't be "because I had it to use up" in recipes that I've posted on the forum (instead of real life!) so I'm happy to answer any specific questions you may have.

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Lol. I'm happy to hear that. While I'm fairly new to brewing I'm definitely not a 'throw it against wall and see if it sticks' brewer. You're obviosuly not either.

Anyway, why use Vienna and Munich in the same recipe? Slight character differences?

Ryat66 said:

Lol. I'm happy to hear that. While I'm fairly new to brewing I'm definitely not a 'throw it against wall and see if it sticks' brewer. You're obviosuly not either.

Anyway, why use Vienna and Munich in the same recipe? Slight character differences?

Click to expand...

Yes. Um, that, and I had it to use up.............

Seriously, the Munich gives it a nice orange hue and a great malt flavor, but more than a pound or two screams MALT, too much so. Vienna has this sweet rich flavor that is just great, and can't be beat for bringing some rich notes to the forefront. Normally I don't use a complicated grainbill, but in this case I was going for a firm rich malt backbone, with some distinct "MALT" notes, but not sweet and overpowering to the hops.

Just wanted to say thanks for that recipe Yooper, in a place you're likely to see it.

I like it a lot. One my German friends who got hooked on APAs while he was here in the US for a postdoc says its his favorite APA.

Seems like I've been pointing people to it frequently the last month or so as an example of a well balanced APA, or a good use of cascade, or what to do with Munich and/or Vienna... Etc.

I've used it as a base for variations on the hops and grist to good effect. I still keep coming back to your original recipe, though.

Yooper said:

Yes. Um, that, and I had it to use up.............

Seriously, the Munich gives it a nice orange hue and a great malt flavor, but more than a pound or two screams MALT, too much so. Vienna has this sweet rich flavor that is just great, and can't be beat for bringing some rich notes to the forefront. Normally I don't use a complicated grainbill, but in this case I was going for a firm rich malt backbone, with some distinct "MALT" notes, but not sweet and overpowering to the hops.

Click to expand...

I went ahead and brewed this last night because you were nice enough to give me your time and it was a recipe you're able to personally vouch for which I like more than just brewing something random. I am still trying to dial in my system and overshot pre-boil gravity by a longshot! I diluted using Beersmith's Gravity Adjust tool, adjusted the hop schedule to match the larger wort volume and added the required additional salts to the boil kettle. Post-boil/SG came out as expected after making the adjustments and the wort tasted ok. As for the bittering...I dunno, I hate to say this but we'll just have to see how it turns out. Needless to say, I am still kind of chasing my tail with brewing!

With the grain bill, starting gravity and batch volume from your recipe, Beersmith is saying you targeted 77%. Does that sound about right?

Thanks again for all of your help.

Ryat66 said:

I went ahead and brewed this last night because you were nice enough to give me your time and it was a recipe you're able to personally vouch for which I like more than just brewing something random. I am still trying to dial in my system and overshot pre-boil gravity by a longshot! I diluted using Beersmith's Gravity Adjust tool, adjusted the hop schedule to match the larger wort volume and added the required additional salts to the boil kettle. Post-boil/SG came out as expected after making the adjustments and the wort tasted ok. As for the bittering...I dunno, I hate to say this but we'll just have to see how it turns out. Needless to say, I am still kind of chasing my tail with brewing!

With the grain bill, starting gravity and batch volume from your recipe, Beersmith is saying you targeted 77%. Does that sound about right?

Thanks again for all of your help.

Click to expand...

No, I think I'm more like 75%, but that was with my old system so I don't recall the exact efficiency numbers anymore. It sounds like you did just great, and I hope you like it as much as we do!

Ryatt66, you say you overshot your O.G. by a lot, how much if I may ask? Getting a system dialed in can take a few batches, and I hope you kept meticulous notes. When I started out I didn't keep good notes, and I chased my tail for a while as they say. Good luck!

MindenMan said:

Ryatt66, you say you overshot your O.G. by a lot, how much if I may ask? Getting a system dialed in can take a few batches, and I hope you kept meticulous notes. When I started out I didn't keep good notes, and I chased my tail for a while as they say. Good luck!

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I targeted 77% on a 6 gallon batch but ended up with 90%, target pre-boil was 1.044 and I had 1.051 To me, that's just simply too high, my final gravity runnings were 1.024 before closing the valve. Again, quite high after pulling 7.5 gallons; +/- 3 points would be fine with me but this is excessive.

This is an ongoing problem since day one with this system. I'd actually love to come up short on gravity just once. At least then I would know that I went in the proper direction.

As for notes, I do use the notes section on Beersmith for each recipe. I think my notes are pretty detailed but I'm not sure you could ever be detailed enough in brewing.

Ryatt66, maybe I am confused here, you mention you consistently have the same problem. Did you want 6 gallons final volume @ 1.044? According to my calculations using Marris Otter as an example @77% I would use 11.25 pounds. Am I missing something here?

No, I was referencing pre-boil gravity, my SG target was 1.055. I took a look at the recipe in Beersmith just now, the total grain bill was 12lbs, for a 6 gallon batch at 77%.

Something doesn't seem right here...

EDIT: I plugged in 11.25lbs of Marris Otter at 77% in Beersmith and got 1.055. Let's talk more because now I'm confused too.

Yooper said:

No, I think I'm more like 75%, but that was with my old system so I don't recall the exact efficiency numbers anymore. It sounds like you did just great, and I hope you like it as much as we do!

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This recipe has proven to be a huge hit!

Having said that, I've run into the exact same issue on this batch as I did on the last batch but I'm dealing with it this time as over-carbonation.

Here's my dissertation: these beers are great if chilled in the freezer for 40 minutes and drank right away. If they are chilled in the fridge for several days they pour foamy and too effervescent. I assume this is because the liquid has more time to absorb the CO2 from the headspace thereby creating the over carbed beers. I checked my notes and my actual bottling volume was 4.9 gallons and I was shooting for 2.3-2.4 volumes. So, I used 113 grams (4 oz) of dextrose and used 70 degrees in the carbonation calculator as that was the highest temperature used during fermentation (held there for about 10 days). I did cold crash and fine with gelatin for 5 days before raising the temperature back up to 68 for dry hop and then crashed another 4 days to settle out any dry hop material.

I have two theories: 1. The beer has retained more CO2 than the calculator is expecting though that would trump science. 2. I prefer less carbonation in my beers than BJCP guidelines suggest but I'm not experienced enough to know this just yet.

Anything else you can think of?

eluterio said:

Reducing or even eliminating the bitter hop at 85 and moving that hop addition to 60 mins would help with the bitterness with little to no flavor or aroma compromise. If you like the bitterness just the harshness of that late addition try first wort hopping.

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Agree. It's my understanding that the increase in bitterness from 60-90 min is a negotiable 2-3%.

Ryat66 said:

This recipe has proven to be a huge hit!

Having said that, I've run into the exact same issue on this batch as I did on the last batch but I'm dealing with it this time as over-carbonation.

Here's my dissertation: these beers are great if chilled in the freezer for 40 minutes and drank right away. If they are chilled in the fridge for several days they pour foamy and too effervescent. I assume this is because the liquid has more time to absorb the CO2 from the headspace thereby creating the over carbed beers. I checked my notes and my actual bottling volume was 4.9 gallons and I was shooting for 2.3-2.4 volumes. So, I used 113 grams (4 oz) of dextrose and used 70 degrees in the carbonation calculator as that was the highest temperature used during fermentation (held there for about 10 days). I did cold crash and fine with gelatin for 5 days before raising the temperature back up to 68 for dry hop and then crashed another 4 days to settle out any dry hop material.

I have two theories: 1. The beer has retained more CO2 than the calculator is expecting though that would trump science. 2. I prefer less carbonation in my beers than BJCP guidelines suggest but I'm not experienced enough to know this just yet.

Anything else you can think of?

Click to expand...

I was just reading a thread and there was a discussion about the temperature used in the carbonation calculator. I think it was @C-Rider who said he cold crashed and when he used 70 degrees in the calculator he was getting over-carbonated beer.

My only guess on that is maybe when racking the beer warm a lot more CO2 comes out of suspension than when it's cold.

Subdivisions said:

I was just reading a thread and there was a discussion about the temperature used in the carbonation calculator. I think it was @C-Rider who said he cold crashed and when he used 70 degrees in the calculator he was getting over-carbonated beer.

My only guess on that is maybe when racking the beer warm a lot more CO2 comes out of suspension than when it's cold.

Click to expand...

You have my attention. Do you by chance have a link?

Edit: I always warm it back up before bottling so that the sugar mixes. I dunno...maybe I'm trying to do too damn much.

Thanks for your reply Yooper as it helps me describe my beer better. I need to try munich again also!

Ryat66 said:

You have my attention. Do you by chance have a link?

Edit: I always warm it back up before bottling so that the sugar mixes. I dunno...maybe I'm trying to do too damn much.

Click to expand...

it was here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=531628&page=3

I think you should pick a target IBU to hit and balance your hop additions around that. Pale ale is usually between 30 - 45 IBUs according to brewersfriend.com.

Maybe check the website of some breweries to see if they have a listed target IBU for there beer. Some even specify the boil times, gravity, SRM to hit.


Edit: Read some more posts. Your target was 41 IBUs. Does your recipe tell you you hit 41 IBUs post boil (after boil off evap)? Its only my preference but I prefer low IBU pale ales, I would target below 40 - 35. If you want more hop flavor, for a 10 gal batch, toss 2 oz of hops at the flame out. You want alot of your additions to be 30 minutes and below to retain the flavor profile of the hops, more like 15 minutes and below. I find it even better to toss my hops in at flame out then to dry hop. Most will say that fermentation pushes the nice hoppy aromas out of the fermenters tho.