Volume/calculating the malt bill

Before I get to my question, I just wanted to say how much I really enjoy reading through the threads here at HBT. I haven't shut my computer off since I signed up about two weeks ago....

I'm just getting into AG and my question is about calculating the malt bill. I did a few trial runs on my system with water to guestimate boil-off with the aim of getting about 5 gals in the end. I started with 7 gals, boiled 60 mins. and ended up with 5 3/4 gals @ 190F+. After cooling to room temp (65-70F), I had 5 gals even. I didn't expect a 3/4 gal volume loss to cooling, but it's consistant (I've read in Ray Daniels' "Designing Great Beers" that 4% is a typical volume differential between boil and 60F, but I'm getting a steady 13% difference). Is my kitchen evil?

Anyway, being that intended finished volume is required to determine the malt bill, which volume should I use in my calculations? The 5.75 or the 5 gallons? Thanks!

Even using brewing software, I never had consistant results until I had a feel for my system. I use ProMash to help formulate recipes; I set batch size at five gallons, but I try to put about five and a half in the fermenter.

I don't really have a definitive answer for your question. If you use your stystem enough times, and keep careful notes of all parts of the process from brewing through tasting, you won't need a computer program to design your beers. You'll know how much base grain you need to hit a gravity.

My first few all grain brews were poorly designed from a technical standpoint, but each one was a learning experience. Homebrewtalk has a lot of great technical information, but everyone is brewing with a different setup in a different environment using different methods. Brewing software will only be truly accurate when you have worked with your system long enough to know the quantitative facts about the system.

I can't wait for the day when I can just feel my way through, but (unfortunately) for the time being my interest is far out-pacing my experience. I'm looking for a solid, ballpark start point, and I'm not sure how much I can trust recipes and especially my own process for the same reasons you've stated: different set-ups, environments and methods.

Most of the material I'm soaking in right now is coming from Daniels and Palmer, with additional research online, including HBT and You tube to some extent (I really enjoyed both Polvino's and Kaiser's presentations...awesome!). I'm also dabbling a little in steam injection. I'm just swarming with interest and feel like I can go off in 100 different directions right now, so to start I'm just trying to bring it down to the fundamentals and avoid sticky situations I may not be prepared for.

Gut feeling tells me that a 3/4 gallon miscalculation can lead to sticky situations. I don't know. I do know that I'm in for a lot of tweaking and education as I go about gaining experience. I'm just trying to avoid a situation where I may need to drastically adjust gravity due to gross errors that I may not expect or be able to handle with fairly limited equipment, stock and experience in my early stages here. I'm not aiming for perfection just yet, but I don't want to learn by dumping beer down the drain either. But then again, I'm probably just being all a little too intense about it. Obsessions tend to have that effect on me (It's my preferred method in shedding 'significant others' from my life ).

Thanks for the response, Kaptain.

I would go with the grain calcs. for the 5 gallons in your situation. I also get massive cooling loss and it bugs me when I'm trying for 5.5 gallons into the fermenter.

Someone here suggested to me that if I still want to get 5.5 gallons that I could add half gallon of top off water at the end of the boil. Keeping in mind this dilutes the wort a little. I use beersmith to help me adjust the grain bill and target a slightly higher OG so when I dilute with the half gallon at the end, I get closer to my target OG with 5.5 gallons.

The only way you will get to know your system and, for that matter, figure out what sort of system you want is to brew. All the reading in the world will not give you the "feel" you seek. You need to get in there, get your hands dirty, screw up a zillion times or so, and see what works for you.

I used to think I wanted some super-system with a couple pumps, thermostat, float switch, lines running every which way, warp drive, photon torpedoes, and maybe steam heating. Instead, I am still on the "two pots and a cooker" system. I am comfortable with it, I know how it works, and I would rather brew 100 batches than spend that sort of money and time on a system. You or someone else may decide differently, but you will not know until you get some more batches under your belt.


TL

Brew Alchemy said:

...ended up with 5 3/4 gals @ 190F+. After cooling to room temp (65-70F), I had 5 gals even. I didn't expect a 3/4 gal volume loss to cooling, but it's consistant (I've read in Ray Daniels' "Designing Great Beers" that 4% is a typical volume differential between boil and 60F, but I'm getting a steady 13% difference). Is my kitchen evil?

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Evil? Either that, or exempt from the laws of physics. Cooling shrinkage isn't system-dependent. I suspect one (or both) of your volume measurements are off.

TexLaw said:

I used to think I wanted some super-system with a couple pumps, thermostat, float switch, lines running every which way, warp drive, photon torpedoes, and maybe steam heating.


TL

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Now see, I didn't even know you could use photon torpedos in brewing. Where can I get one?

Bike N Brew said:

Cooling shrinkage isn't system-dependent. I suspect one (or both) of your volume measurements are off.

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I knew I was probably doing something wrong.

My measurements were good. Turns out what I was recording was evaporation loss. I didn't run it through a chiller system to cool. I just let it cool naturally in the kettle, but I left the lid off.

So, yeah. I'm feeling a little stupid right now.

Go ahead and get yourself the equipment for brewing. It does not have to be top notch new (expensive) stuff to brew good beer. It just has to be the proper equipment for the size batches you would like to make. One big mistake is to try to brew beer without the proper burner, pot, or tools you absolutly need like a chiller if you are all grain brewing. Make a list and go for it. Use a recipe on this forum and tell us your plan so we can help with the details. It's really easy to make beer that is better than you can buy if your heart is in it all the way.

Brew Alchemy said:

Before I get to my question, I just wanted to say how much I really enjoy reading through the threads here at HBT. I haven't shut my computer off since I signed up about two weeks ago....

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Completely off-topic: computers are meant to run constantly. Leave it on, setup your monitor to go to standby after 10-15 minutes and you're golden.

Welcome to HBT...aka "the addiction"