Belgian IPA...thoughts?

For 5.25 Gallons...

10lb Pilsen
2lb Rye
1lb Beet Sugar

Anticipated OG: 1.064 (bad efficiency I know :-/ )

.7oz Warrior 60 minutes (14.6%aa)
1oz Amarillo 20 minutes (8.2%aa)
1oz Saaz 20 minutes (3.3%aa)
1oz Amarillo 5 minutes (8.2%aa)
.5oz Saaz Flameout (3.3%aa)
.5oz Saaz Dryhop
.5oz Amarillo Dryhop

Targeting 59IBU

Mash @150 for 1 hour, 90 minute boil.

Ferment with WLP550. I plan on fermenting this starting around 63-65* and if possible allowing it to raise up to 70* to bring out a bit of a more restrained spicy and phenolic flavor (as referenced in Brew Like a Monk, pp174)

Any suggestions? I've got the hops and yeast on hand already and would like to use them if possible...I just need to buy the grain for this one.

As for water adjustments...this is what I have in mind. I've used this rough adjustment for a few IPAs in the past and have been pretty pleased. Any recommendations otherwise?

Your Saaz to amarillo ratio is off, the amarillo will totally overpower the saaz to the point you may not even notice it.

Houblon said:

Your Saaz to amarillo ratio is off, the amarillo will totally overpower the saaz to the point you may not even notice it.

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+1, Ammarillo by itself I think will work just fine. Save the saaz for something more subtle.

thanks for the feedback!

Looks like I'll be going all amarillo with this one (except the bittering hops of course)

If you are dropping the saaz, I wouldn't add more Amarillo. My one suggestion was going to be to take the bitterness down a touch, close to 50 IBUs. A lot of people think American hops clash with Belgian yeast. I don't think its the hop flavor, I think most go too bitter. The bitterness clashes. Focusing on hop flavor, bitterness to balance, a letting the Belgian yeast character to come through.

There aint no such animal as a Belgian IPA

IPA is India Pale Ale.. Belgians have no such brew fitting the profile

Thats like saying A Belgian Doppelbock or a Mexican Saison.

Where do people get this crap from.. style guidelines are there for a purpose

The couple pints of Belgian IPA I had on cask at Pizza Port, San Clemente were outstanding. Cask conditioned and served at just the right temperature, the hops blended well with the Belgian yeast character.

It was more like a hefeweizen, clove-banana yeast profile now that I think about it...

Hrmmm, new style? German IPA?

OLDBREW said:

Where do people get this crap from.. style guidelines are there for a purpose

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I'm taking influence from a belgian yeast strain and grain bill and introducing an american hop regimen. Who cares what it's called? Not everyone brews to the BJCP...


dirty_martini:

Sounds like a plan. I've grown to really prefer relatively low IBU beers with tons of hop flavor, so here's hoping that the amarillo blends fine with this yeast

OLDBREW said:

There aint no such animal as a Belgian IPA

IPA is India Pale Ale.. Belgians have no such brew fitting the profile

Thats like saying A Belgian Doppelbock or a Mexican Saison.

Where do people get this crap from.. style guidelines are there for a purpose

Click to expand...

Stone has made an IPA with Belgian yeast
http://www.stonebrew.com/cali/

Brasserie d'Achouffe has done an IPA as well
http://www.achouffe.be/en/nos-bieres/nos-produits/fiche.php?p=7

OLDBREW said:

Where do people get this crap from.. style guidelines are there for a purpose

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Most who write for homebrewers about Belgian beers emphasize that Belgian "styles" are extremely fluid.

Generally, there are those who brew toward styles and those who choose to break the guidelines. Marginal departures might be called "innovation". Radical departures are just that, radical, and, to my tastes and inclinations, welcome.

I respect the style guidelines for what they are. I generally prefer to brew to style. But I recognize them for what they are not: a roadmap to discovery and innovation.

Let's have some of both, shall we?

Have you used rye before in a mash? I haven't, but I think I read that you may need rice hulls while lautering.

Hex said:

Have you used rye before in a mash? I haven't, but I think I read that you may need rice hulls while lautering.

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I used it on an IPA before but in a smaller amount, so I've got some rice hulls left over from then

I am also brewing a belgian IPA soon with chinook and amarillo. I like this thread.

dirty_martini said:

If you are dropping the saaz, I wouldn't add more Amarillo. My one suggestion was going to be to take the bitterness down a touch, close to 50 IBUs. A lot of people think American hops clash with Belgian yeast. I don't think its the hop flavor, I think most go too bitter. The bitterness clashes. Focusing on hop flavor, bitterness to balance, a letting the Belgian yeast character to come through.

Click to expand...

I have had belgian IPAs I like, and thinking back they were higher on the aroma side, and the ones I don't like are higher on the bitter side(raging *****) so that is pretty good advice.

terrapinj said:

Stone has made an IPA with Belgian yeast
http://www.stonebrew.com/cali/

Brasserie d'Achouffe has done an IPA as well
http://www.achouffe.be/en/nos-bieres/nos-produits/fiche.php?p=7

Click to expand...

If you read their descriptions on their web sites both are IPA's !
Stones took their Stone IPA recipe and used a Belgian yeast strain instead of their normal strain which makes it a specialty beer.

Brasserie d'Achouffe has actually made a IIPA. the word tripel denotes Belgians alcohol levels single/dubbel/trippel

never heard of the use of Pilsner or Rye malts in an IPA

Pale Ale malt is and always was the main ingredient in IPA's

terrapinj said:

Stone has made an IPA with Belgian yeast
http://www.stonebrew.com/cali/

Brasserie d'Achouffe has done an IPA as well
http://www.achouffe.be/en/nos-bieres/nos-produits/fiche.php?p=7

Click to expand...

And of course Ommegang has a "BPA".

I brewed a BPA this summer using Yooper's DFH60 recipe with Wyeast 1388. This recipe is not real bitter, but has loads of flavoring hops. The hops used in that recipe were Amarillo and Simcoe. I thought the end result was awesome; has loads of flavor.

OLDBREW said:

If you read their descriptions on their web sites both are IPA's !
Stones took their Stone IPA recipe and used a Belgian yeast strain instead of their normal strain which makes it a specialty beer.

Brasserie d'Achouffe has actually made a IIPA. the word tripel denotes Belgians alcohol levels single/dubbel/trippel

never heard of the use of Pilsner or Rye malts in an IPA

Pale Ale malt is and always was the main ingredient in IPA's

Click to expand...

Again....I'm not brewing for the BJCP. I could have titled this thread "Specialty Beer...thoughts?" and no one would have any idea what to expect prior to reading the thread. By calling it a "Belgian IPA" people can generally assume what I'm trying to accomplish.

corbomite said:

I am also brewing a belgian IPA soon with chinook and amarillo. I like this thread.

Click to expand...

I've got some chinook on hand, maybe I'll bitter with chinook instead of all amarillo

In any case, I'll update the thread once it's kegged and I get a good grasp on the taste for anyone curious.

I just brewed a beer with Barley, Wheat, American hops and WLP530 - call it whatever you care to, I hope to call it delicious.

As to the OP, I like the fact that you could care less about BJCP, brew what you like. Belgian's are probably pissed off they didn't think of making an IPA.

OLDBREW said:

If you read their descriptions on their web sites both are IPA's !
Stones took their Stone IPA recipe and used a Belgian yeast strain instead of their normal strain which makes it a specialty beer.

Brasserie d'Achouffe has actually made a IIPA. the word tripel denotes Belgians alcohol levels single/dubbel/trippel

never heard of the use of Pilsner or Rye malts in an IPA

Pale Ale malt is and always was the main ingredient in IPA's

Click to expand...

what a jag. "you can't call that beer a belgian IPA because the 2008 BJCP guidelines don't have a number for it"

have you ever actually had Houblon? it's made with pilsner.

By calling it a "Belgian IPA" people can generally assume what I'm trying to accomplish.

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When I read the thread title I immediately thought; "Oh, like Houblon Chouffe." HBT member Houblon has some great tips for making it if so inclined.

OLDBREW said:

Where do people get this crap from.. style guidelines are there for a purpose

Click to expand...

I think that purpose is for classifying beers for competition. The style came first and the classification came after. That said, I am one that wasn't too keen on the whole 'Black IPA' thing, mainly because black isn't pale. But for some reason 'Belgian IPA' seems fine to me.

motobrewer said:

what a jag. "you can't call that beer a belgian IPA because the 2008 BJCP guidelines don't have a number for it"

have you ever actually had Houblon? it's made with pilsner.

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<snicker>

Ignore 'im. OLDBREW is more accurately OLDTROLL around here. Belgian IPAs are fantastic. Guess I'll disavow my wonderful RyePA recipe per the troll's advice too.

dirty_martini said:

If you are dropping the saaz, I wouldn't add more Amarillo. My one suggestion was going to be to take the bitterness down a touch, close to 50 IBUs. A lot of people think American hops clash with Belgian yeast. I don't think its the hop flavor, I think most go too bitter. The bitterness clashes. Focusing on hop flavor, bitterness to balance, a letting the Belgian yeast character to come through.

Click to expand...

dirty_martini speaks the truth!

I've done quite a few Belgian (or I call 'em Tripel) IPAs, last one was 100% Cascade. Got carried away with 74 IBU and just about buried the yeast character. I think too much dry hopping can bury the yeast flavor too. Balance is key.

Ok. If oldbrew wants to talk styles and tradition, what does any IPA made in the US have to do with "India"? Nothing. There is no such thing as an american IPA. We didn't ship beer on boats to India and make them higher in abv and hops for preservative purposes. IPA is a case where the style has become synonymous with the name, though the names initial meaning is long lost. IPA means hoppy. Not traditionally, but now that is the interpretation. So basically, Belgian IPA makes as much sense as American IPA.

Oh, and style guidelines are for competitions and narrow minded people who need a definition and title for everything. They need to be told what something is instead of making their own minds up. Ask the Belgians about style guidelines. "what guidelines?"

mexican saison sounds pretty interesting tho!

motobrewer said:

mexican saison sounds pretty interesting tho!

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All vienna malt

New Belgium has a Belgian IPA (Belgo IPA I believe) that is very nice. They provide most of the ingredients on their website and I brewed the recipe from either this board or the BN. Turned out great. Have to look at my notes re: the hops but it had plenty of punch. Montanaandy

dirty_martini said:

All vienna malt

Click to expand...

hmm...

100% vienna, hallertau, saison yeast, maybe a short lagering period after a hot primary

dirty_martini said:

Ok. If oldbrew wants to talk styles and tradition, what does any IPA made in the US have to do with "India"? Nothing. There is no such thing as an American IPA. We didn't ship beer on boats to India and make them higher in abv and hops for preservative purposes. IPA is a case where the style has become synonymous with the name, though the names initial meaning is long lost. IPA means hoppy. Not traditionally, but now that is the interpretation. So basically, Belgian IPA makes as much sense as American IPA.

Oh, and style guidelines are for competitions and narrow minded people who need a definition and title for everything. They need to be told what something is instead of making their own minds up. Ask the Belgians about style guidelines. "what guidelines?"

Click to expand...

Belgians have style guidelines that date back to the 1600's from the Trappist Monks Monasteries
Orval, Chimay, Westvleteren, Rochefort, Westmalle and Achel breweries, all brew from the Belgian Trappist Monks recipes and their style guidelines.

Americas styles were not even recognized in world class brewing comps, Just like the Golden Retriever dog for many years wasn't considered a true breed in world comps.

Our versions came about from the US brewers not having access to Euro malts, hops, and yeast strains. When we tried to grow their hops and grains here, the flavor profiles didn't match up with hops or malts from Europe and their yeasts were next to extinct.
The Americans Wanted to have world wide recognition in the brewing realm

AHA put American style guidelines together and added categories to use our ingredients as part of the worlds classic styles. So American Hefeweizens don't taste like Bavarian Hefes, or our IPA's don't taste like the Brits.
It all comes down to making beer with our home grown ingredients, but we call it an American IPA or an American Wheat and it has a profile that is documented.

Now days you can get ingredients including yeast strains from Belgian, German, France, England, Ireland, Scotland, Danish, Czech and so on, so you can brew any style you want. You do have to use their ingredients to come close to their brews though.

IPA DOES NOT STAND FOR HOPPY. It has it's own profile. If you want to classify a beer that is hoppy but doesn't fit an IPA's profile, Name it HoppyAZZBEER

I don't know about you guys, but I drink and make beer because I like it, not because its "stylish".

Who cares about style unless it's for competition?

motobrewer said:

what a jag. "you can't call that beer a belgian IPA because the 2008 BJCP guidelines don't have a number for it"

have you ever actually had Houblon? it's made with pilsner.

Click to expand...

I was told they use belgian pale malt, not pilsner malt...Where did you get your ingredient information from?

The HOUBLON CHOUFFE was brewed for the first time in 2006. It is an &#8216;Indian Pale ale&#8217; type of beer, with a harmonious balance between a marked bitterness (three types of hops are used to make it) and a pleasant fruitiness.
notice the wordage "indian pale ale type of beer"

dirty_martini said:

My one suggestion was going to be to take the bitterness down a touch, close to 50 IBUs. A lot of people think American hops clash with Belgian yeast. I don't think its the hop flavor, I think most go too bitter. The bitterness clashes..

Click to expand...

Thats were the brewer`s skill comes into play, Viven Imperial IPA 124 IBU and its damn tastey.

OLDBREW said:

There aint no such animal as a Belgian IPA
- snip -
Where do people get this crap from.. style guidelines are there for a purpose

Click to expand...

Well you better not look now but here is a Belgian IPA brewed by Belgian brewers in Belgium.

Viven Imperial IPA


and another

Troubadour Magma


don't look now but theres more



http://beeradvocate.com/beer/style/174

OLDBREW said:

I was told they use belgian pale malt, not pilsner malt...Where did you get your ingredient information from?

Click to expand...

Like all Achouffe beers its Pilsner & sugar, my source > the brewer at Achouffe on both visits.

Belgian IPA at the brewery in Belgium

Montanaandy said:

New Belgium has a Belgian IPA (Belgo IPA I believe) that is very nice. They provide most of the ingredients on their website and I brewed the recipe from either this board or the BN. Turned out great. Have to look at my notes re: the hops but it had plenty of punch. Montanaandy

Click to expand...

All their IPA's base malt is Pale Malt.. no Rye to be found
description is "A Belgian Twist on a Indian Pale Ale" so they too include IPA as the style guide.

All the Belgians are doing is using the "IPA" style guide on their bottles as a marketing ploy. None of them brew a true IPA as I stated. They all describe it as a brew leaning toward an IPA style, but then they have made it different. So it isn't a IPA.

Enough debating the style. If you want to do that, start a new thread. The OP was looking for recipe critiques, not a bunch of OT discussion about his choice of "style." The name he chose communicates his idea.

OLDBREW said:

Belgians have style guidelines that date back to the 1600's from the Trappist Monks Monasteries
Orval, Chimay, Westvleteren, Rochefort, Westmalle and Achel breweries, all brew from the Belgian Trappist Monks recipes and their style guidelines.

Americas styles were not even recognized in world class brewing comps, Just like the Golden Retriever dog for many years wasn't considered a true breed in world comps.

Our versions came about from the US brewers not having access to Euro malts, hops, and yeast strains. When we tried to grow their hops and grains here, the flavor profiles didn't match up with hops or malts from Europe and their yeasts were next to extinct.
The Americans Wanted to have world wide recognition in the brewing realm

AHA put American style guidelines together and added categories to use our ingredients as part of the worlds classic styles. So American Hefeweizens don't taste like Bavarian Hefes, or our IPA's don't taste like the Brits.
It all comes down to making beer with our home grown ingredients, but we call it an American IPA or an American Wheat and it has a profile that is documented.

Now days you can get ingredients including yeast strains from Belgian, German, France, England, Ireland, Scotland, Danish, Czech and so on, so you can brew any style you want. You do have to use their ingredients to come close to their brews though.

IPA DOES NOT STAND FOR HOPPY. It has it's own profile. If you want to classify a beer that is hoppy but doesn't fit an IPA's profile, Name it HoppyAZZBEER

Click to expand...

IPA does stand for hoppy in American brewers eyes. It's called evolution. Often what something meant initially changes over time. IPA certainly doesn't mean "India" pale pale either. Traditional terms only apply if the tradition continues. Yes, you can follow style guidelines set for the style, but no one is shipping their beer like they did 200 years ago. If we are so stuck in proper usage of a term, then we need to change the term. However, since we haven't and it's taken on it's own meaning (like it or not), then if Belgian brewers want to adopt a british style and make their own twist, so be it. If American brewers who are brewing styles from around the world decide to try blending styles, why not. It's like going to a restaurant that has a fusion style. Take the best of French, Asian, italian, whatever cooking and blending it to make something new and unique. They are allowed to say it's a fusion of the 2 styled and use both by name, because by saying those names you get exactly what it will be. Ex. French/Asian (Asian food using traditional French techniques and presentation). Belgian IPA - fruity/spicy Belgian style beer where yeast flavor is prominent while also being aggressively hopped do there is a strong hop flavor and aroma.