Kettle PH

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wobdee

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Anyone out there monitor kettle PH? I've read that some Germans actually mash a little higher PH (5.6?) then adjust the boil PH down lower to around 5.2. Maybe the higher mash PH is more optimal for enzymes and adjusting down later in the boil helps out with yeast health and fermentation?

I usually mash around 5.4 but lately have been creeping down to 5.2-5.3 for my lagers. I'm thinking of trying out this other technique. Thoughts?
 
Anyone out there monitor kettle PH? I've read that some Germans actually mash a little higher PH (5.6?) then adjust the boil PH down lower to around 5.2. Maybe the higher mash PH is more optimal for enzymes and adjusting down later in the boil helps out with yeast health and fermentation?

I do. I usually shoot for a mash pH of around 5.5 and a bit below and find that knockout pH is usually 5.2 - 5.3 with which I am content. I have not found it necessary to add extra acid for that to happen.

One of the first jobs the yeast have to do is get the wort pH into the range which is optimum for them. Obviously if you relieve them of some of the necessary effort in that direction by starting them out at a lower pH they can devote more energy to making your beer.

OTOH higher kettle pH means more dissociation and isomerization of hops bittering acids. Thus higher kettle pH means higher utilization. Since the craft/home brewing world seems to be bent on brewing undrinkably bitter beer these days many prefer to keep kettle pH high.
 
So your PH drops naturally about .2-.3 pretty consistently? I never measured mine, guess I should start. What about your final PH after fermentation?
 
So your PH drops naturally about .2-.3 pretty consistently?
Yes.

What about your final PH after fermentation?

Depends on the beer (or the yeast strain, really, for the most part). Sometimes (lagers) it only goes down to 4.6 or so. With ales it tends to go lower - close to 4.0. Don't think it's ever gone below that.
 
Found some interesting info on mash PH. There's so much different optimum mash PH recommendations out there it makes my head hurt. This kind a clears up the confusion a bit for me.

In mashing we tend to target the mash pH to optimize the effectiveness of the most important mash enzymes: the amylases which convert starch into sugar. In room temperature tests the pH optima for alpha amylase has been found at 5.3 and for the beta amylase it is between 5.1 and 5.3 [Briggs, 2004] (see pH and brewing water in Starch Conversion). But when their activity is evaluated at mashing temperatures and the pH of a cooled mash sample is measured it shows their pH optima at 5.7 and 5.4-5.6 respectively. This is the result of a pH shift in the mash that takes place when the mash is heated. In addition to that, the pH optimum of the enzyme is likely to shift as well. As a result, at common starch conversion temperatures (65C/150F) the pH of the mash appears 0.35 units lower than that of a room temperature mash sample [Briggs, 2004]. This needs to be taken into account when looking at pH optima for various mash enzymes. Most commonly, however, the pH optima that are reported in the literature were determined by testing cooled mash samples.*
 
Fix: “…..mash pH has been known for a long time to be very important (De Clerk, 1957). The classic rule
is for the chilled wort to have a pH of 5.0 - 5.2 and, to achieve this level, it is desirable to establish a mash
pH in the range 5.2 - 5.4 (Hind, 1950). This range, first of all, is favourable to enzymatic activity…..the
enzymes’ activities do not decrease by much if the pH levels are more acid, but there is typically a sharp
decrease if the pH becomes more basic (alkaline)” :

Amylase Activity at 60 C

pH Activity (%)
4.8 = 98
5.0 = 99
5.2 = 100
5.4 = 95
5.8 = 85
6.2 = 65

“Another equally important factor is that high pH mashes, say above 5.5, tend to lead to dull malt flavour
that lacks definition (Narziss, 1992). Hop flavours are also negatively affected………in modern practice,
the focus has turned to the pH (rather than the specific gravity) of the wort collected from the sparge
because pH increases with the extraction of undesirable astringents. A general rule is to terminate the
sparge when the pH of the collected wort increases much beyond 0.1 pH units higher than the mash pH. In
any case, it should not exceed 5.5.”

Noonan: “…..pH is of utmost importance to the brewer. Appropriate acidity is a prerequisite of a
successful brewing cycle. Enzyme activity, kettle break, and yeast performance rely on conducive acidity
in the mash, wort, and beer”.

Summary: The ideal pH for all mashes is in the range 5.2 – 5.4. Too low is better than too high, for
reasons of enzyme efficiency and possible extraction of astringents during end sparging. The mash pH affects the pH throughout the remainder of the brewing cycle, including that of the finished beer.
 
“Another equally important factor is that high pH mashes, say above 5.5, tend to lead to dull malt flavour
that lacks definition (Narziss, 1992).

As far as I ]am concerned, that is what it is all about. I don't really care if an amylase is not working at peak performance. Clearly there are other enzymes that produce the flavors I am after and their optimum pH seems to be around 5.5.
 
I generally shoot for 5.3-5.4 for all my mashes. Till I learn more about tweaking it to my tastes and different beer styles I think a fixed target will serve for now.

I was not aware that further acidification post mash was done. Certainly easy to measure it. I think I will start collecting that data too. I'm not sure to what end but perhaps it will become useful down the track as my know-how increases with experience?

As an aside. How do the German brewers accomplish post-mash acidification whilst adhering to the German purity guidelines?
 
I use to target 5.4 for all my lagers but lately I've been creeping down. I targeted a recent Helles for 5.3 and ended up at 5.2 because I screwed up and added too much lactic acid. These were all measured by cooled room temp so according to the sources above the actual mash PH is about .3 lower. I think that may be too low but we'll see.

Next weekend I'm brewing another Helles and I'm going to target 5.55 in the mash then add acid to the beginning of the boil to reach 5.3 then hope it lowers a couple more points during the boil to around 5.1.
 
I have been working under the understanding that when discussing mash pH it is only pH measurements taken at room temperature that are relevant. All the predictive algorithms are tailored toward measures at ~70F or ~75F

I don't believe you mash pH will be 0.3 lower than that which you measure at room temperature. Otherwise we would need to target a RT mash pH at 5.5-5.9

Perhaps I am wrong. This goes against all I've read thus far.
 
Suggested and measured are at room temp. If you actually measure at mash temp it will be approximately 0.3 units lower. In brewing literature when a mash pH is listed the author is conventionally assuming you are measuring at room temp.
 
Suggested and measured are at room temp. If you actually measure at mash temp it will be approximately 0.3 units lower. In brewing literature when a mash pH is listed the author is conventionally assuming you are measuring at room temp.


Or have ATC on your probe.
 
My probe has ATC so I guess I don't need to do any more thinking on the subject.:D

ATC does not entirely correct for temperature effects and it is damaging to a probe to be immersed repeatedly in hot solutions. Always collect and cool wort samples for greatest accuracy and probe longevity.
 
I have been working under the understanding that when discussing mash pH it is only pH measurements taken at room temperature that are relevant. All the predictive algorithms are tailored toward measures at ~70F or ~75F

I don't believe you mash pH will be 0.3 lower than that which you measure at room temperature. Otherwise we would need to target a RT mash pH at 5.5-5.9

Perhaps I am wrong. This goes against all I've read thus far.

According to Fix and Briggs in my earlier post 5.2 is optimum mash PH at 60° C and if you cool that sample to room temp and take another reading it climbs .35, so that's why I was thinking my 5.2 reading at room temp needs to be subtracted by .35 to get the actual mash PH at mash temps.

I'm going to try and target the optimum mash PH of 5.55 (room cooled) then acidify the kettle to get the optimum cast out PH. Rabeb25 turned me on to this and I'd like to give it a go and see if it makes any difference for me.

This can be kind of confusing and I wonder if there is misinformation on mash PH because few state how the samples were taken, either by actual mash temps or cooled.
 
ATC does not entirely correct for temperature effects and it is damaging to a probe to be immersed repeatedly in hot solutions. Always collect and cool wort samples for greatest accuracy and probe longevity.

Yes. I always cool my small mash sample to 72F +/- 2-3F before taking a reading. Such a tiny amount doesn't take long to cool. I just pop it in the freezer for a little bit. No rush on the reading as I'm not planning any intra-mash adjustments.

I probably should have made myself clearer in my earlier post.
 
ATC has nothing to do with the pH shift that occurs in mash with change in temperature. It is there to compensate for the change in electrode response with temperature at a given pH. What ATC is and isn't is explained under "ATC - What is it?' at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=302256

ATC lets you see the true pH. Without it, you won't. Modern meters all have it as they do the math which turns a voltage measurement into a pH estimate in firmware. The temperature must be entered into the equation solved. Again, the details are in the sticky.

It is difficult to know whether a given specified mash pH is at mash or room temperature unless the author explicitly states this. Jean DeClerck does (lab temperature) and Gordon Strong (mash temperature) do this. Most others don't. It is usually safe to assume it is lab temperature.

The amount of pH shift to mash temperature from room temperature depends on the pH shift of the individual malts and this can vary quite a bit. I've been using 0.0055 pH/°C based on measurement of actual mash but have measured 0.009 and even 0.014 on some malts. This complicates the proton deficit calculations necessary for prediction of mash pH somewhat and is an area under investigation.
 
Yes. That was my understanding. My earlier remark about not needing to do any more thinking and letting ATC do it for me was rather tongue-in-cheek. :)

I will continue to do my little mash adjustments with predicted and measured pH at room temperature. ~70-75F.

Sample usually taken 25-30 mins into a single infusion mash.
 
Just to throw another wrench into this discussion, what about sparging and it's effect on kettle PH? I suppose if you adjust your mash PH to a certain range sparging can raise the PH unless you account for it by acidification?
 
Obviously the properties of the sparge water will have an effect. If the pH of the sparge water is higher than that of the mash and it has appreciable buffering capacity (alkalinity) it will absorb protons from the mash and pH will go up. If you acidify it to mash pH it will have no effect at all. If you acidify to lower than mash pH it will pull wort pH lower.
 
Just to throw another wrench into this discussion, what about sparging and it's effect on kettle PH? I suppose if you adjust your mash PH to a certain range sparging can raise the PH unless you account for it by acidification?

Correct, one of the reasons I don't sparge. ;)
 
Wheeling all that retained extract (which is potential beer) out to the garden and dumping it would just drive me nuts.

Lol, I can relate, I took me awhile to except the fact of a bit lower efficiency but for me brewing 2.5-3 gal batches it probably only a hand full of grain difference.
 
As an aside. How do the German brewers accomplish post-mash acidification whilst adhering to the German purity guidelines?

They typically use a small amount of sauergut, aka wort from a sour mash.
 
Obviously the properties of the sparge water will have an effect. If the pH of the sparge water is higher than that of the mash and it has appreciable buffering capacity (alkalinity) it will absorb protons from the mash and pH will go up. If you acidify it to mash pH it will have no effect at all. If you acidify to lower than mash pH it will pull wort pH lower.

So just to clarify for myself.. The goal when you start to try controlling your PH levels is to match your sparge water's PH to your Mash PH or else it's really all for not, right?
 
So just to clarify for myself.. The goal when you start to try controlling your PH levels is to match your sparge water's PH to your Mash PH or else it's really all for not, right?
Nah, matching sparge water pH to mash pH doesn't need to be a goal. For example, some folks will sparge with distilled water, and they might just skip acidifying it. And let's say your first runoff is 5.2 but your second runoff is 5.4 because you barely (or didn't) acidified the sparge water. Is that a problem? Of course not; it just means your kettle pH will be say 5.3.

There are rules-of-thumb for acidifying sparge water, like Miller says to acidify it to 5.7. I've seen other numbers too.
 
ok. So to my understanding (and I'm just starting on all of the sciences behind cooking and brewing more than 8read recipe.. follow recipe) The mash would have a certain PH to maximize it's efficiency in converting you sugars, but a lower efficiency is better for your finished wort to promote yeast activity, correct?
 
The goal in adjusting sparge water pH is to help set the kettle pH where you want it. This is usually a bit below finished mash pH and so one may want to acidify the sparge water somewhat. Or you can refrain from acidifying the sparge water and add the acid to the kettle. Doesn't matter as long as the acid goes in there. In many cases, acid is not needed (I have never used it). There is only one case where sparge water must be acidified and that is where it is alkaline enough that it can pull mash pH up or that it pulls up runoff pH to over 6 before you have collected as much wort as you want (runoff gravity is too high).
 
Keep in mind that as the kettle run off becomes low gravity, in the 1.011-1.009 range, it has very little buffering power and thus the pH is likely to easily rise to the 6.0 range. This promotes tannin extraction and astringency well within taste thresholds in the final product. That's why it's important to keep your sparge water acidic and cease lautering when the gravity gets to around 009. The fantastic book 'water' is extensive in the subject, both scientifically and empirically.
 
Keep in mind that as the kettle run off becomes low gravity, in the 1.011-1.009 range, it has very little buffering power and thus the pH is likely to easily rise to the 6.0 range.

That is my experience. There is very little chance of tannin or silicate extraction into the wort, regardless of temperature and somewhat regardless of pH, when the wort gravity is relatively high. It is not until the gravity falls into the 3 or 4 brix range that there is much opportunity for damage. Then having the sparging water alkalinity and temperature in the proper range is very important.

Those of you batch sparging, have less to worry about since the final runnings tend to be much higher gravity than the danger point I mention above. You lose some efficiency, but should be less apt to extract the bad stuff. Of course, you still need to acidify the sparging water to bring its alkalinity down.

I still fly sparge and have to be careful with stopping the runoff at low gravity or my beer does display slight astringency. Lately, I've been reserving the last 1 to 1.5 gal of the calculated sparging volume from the mash and just adding that as pre-boil top-off water in the kettle. That is working very well.
 
If wort is at pH high enough to ionize phenols there is no mechanism I can think of whereby high wort gravity provides any protection against dissolution of the phenols. It shouldn't be a question of ionic strength as the ionic strength of wort is modest at worst i.e. not high enough to cause significant deviation from ideal behavior (I don't think) and certainly not high enough for 'salting out' to be taking place. What do you have in mind here?
 
Low buffering simply means that it takes little acid or base to move pH. I'm not questioning that. My question was with respect to the statement that tannin extraction is more or less independent of pH if the wort is strong. The statement was made that there is little opportunity for damage until the wort reaches 3 - 4 Bx but does not state that this is because one can quickly slip to pH of > 6 rather implying, as I read it anyway, that it isn't the pH but the Bx that causes tanins to move.
 
I went back and read Martin's comment once more and now I see what you're questioning. The data I know of tells us that the pH is the principal driver behind tannin, ash, and silicate extraction. But if there's data to show that gravity is directly responsible for astringency compounds then maybe it's important we know about it. AJ, I know that you worked closely with Colin to flesh out chapter 6 of his Water book (which I will continue to shout is a phenomenal resource) so I don't expect I'll be correcting you! I think I just read Martin's comment to mean that he was shortcutting the progression of low runoff brix -> increased pH.
 
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