Great Lakes Grassroots Ale Clone(?)

Yesterday I had the pleasure of getting some Great Lakes Grassroots Ale on draft in Dayton, OH. The online review nerds aren't crazy about it, but on draft, this was a beer of beauty. I was at a place with a decent draft list and had zero desire to order anything else after taking a couple of sips. A really lovely and unique beer.

So, to clone it! Here's what I have to work with:

Grassroots Ale

Formerly Hale Ale: A fragrant saison blended with coriander, lemon balm, chamomile and lemon basil, some of which were sustainably grown on our "Pint Size Farm" at Hale Farm & Village.

ABV: 6.2% ABW: 4.9% IBU: 30

TYPE/STYLE:
Saison: Saison (French, "season") is the name originally given to refreshing, low-alcohol pale ales brewed seasonally in farmhouses in Wallonia, the French-speaking region of Belgium, to refresh farm workers during harvest season.

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My notes:

Golden color, very slightly orange. Huge rocky head that persisted. Aroma of belgian funk and light fruits. Very sweet with mild apples, oranges, and lemon. Crisp and refreshing.

Luckily I have Mosher's Radical Brewing which has lots of info on this type of weirdo recipe formulation in it.


Here's what I am thinking as a starting point (I don't have beersmith at work to really fine-tune this right now):

OG: 1.060 - 90 Min Boil

Grains:
60% Pilsner
10% Vienna
10% Malted Wheat
10% Crystal 10
10% Turbinado Sugar

Hops:
Saaz, 20 IBU @ 60 Mins
Saaz, 10 IBU @ 20 Mins

Spices @ 5 min:
28 g Indian Corriander
14 g Chamomile
7 g Fresh Lemon Balm (if I can find it)
7 g Fresh Lemon Basil (if I can find it)

Yeast:
My biggest question. My LHBS has primarily Wyeast, which leaves me with
3724 Belgian Saison Yeast Saison du Pont


Any other comments? I would love some help here.

I have also had the pleasure of tasting this beer. Best part, I was able to compare this with my own Saison brewed back in February. Not sure when this was actually brewed by Great Lakes, but it may not have been aged as long as mine. Although I did love the beer, I have to admit that I favored mine over the commercial beer. Just personal preference...

That being said, the yeast I belive is one of the biggest factors for this type of beer. Like you said, it definately has the "Belgian Funk" to it. If you want to go for a true Saison, I would say go for the Saison yeast. Or, try stealing some from Great Lakes by taking the dregs from the bottle and building up a starter from that.

The rest of the recipe looks and sounds great. In addition to the Corriander, I included Grains of Paradise in the brew. Not too much or you'll overpower the beer though. I wish I had the exact amount I used, but it was pretty much perfect for this beer. In general, you just don't want anyone to be able to actually pick out the spices used. You want them to be noticable, but not recognizable (if that makes sense...). Good luck on trying to clone this wonderful beer! Should be a lot of fun!

Edit: One other thing I forgot to mention. Make sure to really control your fermentation temps on this brew. In order to get some of those "funky" Saison flavors, you'll want to start in the mid to upper 60's and actually ramp up this beer into the high 70s, low 80s. The esters produced by these temps are definately a good thing in a Saison.

I need to get a 6 pack of this stuff. I didn't realize it was a saison.

Honestly, I would try emailing the brewery. I got very quick advice on the Burning River recipe. They might be able to give you some tips on where to track down the more exotic ingredients

Thanks, guys. I e-mailed the brewery and will let you know if they respond.

wait... Great lakes gave you advice on one of their recpies?

:goes to email about nosferatu:

Duster72 said:

Thanks, guys. I e-mailed the brewery and will let you know if they respond.

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Great, keep us posted on what they say.

claphamsa said:

wait... Great lakes gave you advice on one of their recpies?

:goes to email about nosferatu:

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Yea. I was trying to figure out the the recipe for Burning River. I made up a basic pale ale recipe according to their site. They don't give a lot of info on the beer like some breweries do though. I sent an email to a contact on the web site. They forwareded it to the brewmaster who gave me a run down on the crystal malts, hops and yeast they use. I've also gotten recipes from Bells. I think a lot of breweries are more willing to share recipes than most of us think. Since a lot of them have a home brewing background, they seem very willing and even eager to help us out.

Went to Lowes and bought 1 lemon basil plant and 1 lemon balm plant.

Getting closer...

Duster72 said:

Went to Lowes and bought 1 lemon basil plant and 1 lemon balm plant.

Getting closer...

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Be sure you grow them "sustainably" whatever that means

Yeah, I'll throw some compost on 'em since I am eating/drinking them.

Funny, I emailed great lakes last night about the nosferatu, and got an answer today

Its not a recpie... but i can make a good hash from it

Exactly what I got. They gave me some VERY good pointers, including the yeast strain, which was probably the most important piece of the puzzle.

I will update my OP with my final recipe when I get back home to beersmith.

yeah, I have what kinds of grain to use, what hops and what yeast. the site lists ABV and IBU so......

also WTF is crystal 77???

I think they use a lot of Crystal 77. They use that in Burning River too. Its probably a specific malt from their maltster. You just need to find out what maltster makes Crystal 77. I'm sure you could sub for 80L or even 90L with no problems.

EDIT:
From a quick search, it looks like Crisp makes a 77L crystal malt.

i plan on inputting equal parts 60 and 90

Final recipe, based on GLBC's feedback.


Grassroots Saison Clone
Saison

Type: All Grain
Date: 6/5/2009
Batch Size: 6.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.71 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 77.00


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 61.23 %
2.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 19.13 %
1.27 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.69 %
44.00 gm Hallertauer [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 20.0 IBU
37.00 gm Hallertauer [4.80 %] (20 min) Hops 10.2 IBU
1.30 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.30 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm Chamomile (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm Lemon Balm (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm Lemon Basil (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.30 lb Turbinado (10.0 SRM) Sugar 9.95 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Ardennes (Wyeast Labs #3522) [Starter 1000 ml] Yeast-Wheat

Duster72 said:

Yesterday I had the pleasure of getting some Great Lakes Grassroots Ale on draft in Dayton, OH.

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Which ale house was it? I live just outside of Dayton and have been unable to find this beer. Thanks.

Boston's Pub

While I liked Grassroots Ale, I thought it was really heavy on the coriander. If I were making my own "Grassroots Ale", I'd probably tone that down a little bit.

I made it yesterday. The wort tasted really interesting. Very lemony, even though I didn't have as much lemon basil or balm as I had hoped for.

GLWIII said:

Which ale house was it? I live just outside of Dayton and have been unable to find this beer. Thanks.

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Cadillac Jack's south of the Dayton Mall had this on draft earlier this year.

Duster72 said:

Final recipe, based on GLBC's feedback.


Grassroots Saison Clone
Saison

Type: All Grain
Date: 6/5/2009
Batch Size: 6.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.71 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 77.00


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 61.23 %
2.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 19.13 %
1.27 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 9.69 %
44.00 gm Hallertauer [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 20.0 IBU
37.00 gm Hallertauer [4.80 %] (20 min) Hops 10.2 IBU
1.30 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.30 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm Chamomile (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm Lemon Balm (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
20.00 gm Lemon Basil (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.30 lb Turbinado (10.0 SRM) Sugar 9.95 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Ardennes (Wyeast Labs #3522) [Starter 1000 ml] Yeast-Wheat

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If anyone cares....

That's way too much corriander. I didn't have 20 gm of lemon basil or balm, so I used what I had - about 5 gm, which wasn't enough. I made a second batch and used closer to 10 gm of the basil and balm and left out the corriander altogether. I am hoping to be able to blend the 2 batches and get it at little closer.

Also, I fermented at 68 and then let it free rise to 72 after 48 hours which gave a very clean taste. I think to get the proper yeast flavor fermentation is going to have to be warmer, but I don't know if that's going to be 70, 72, 74, etc. I think it's going to be trial and error. This beer was all about the yeast - the other stuff was just background.

claphamsa said:

Funny, I emailed great lakes last night about the nosferatu, and got an answer today

Its not a recpie... but i can make a good hash from it

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Is it possible for you to post that email response you got from Great Lakes about the Nosferatu? I know it was over a year ago, but I'd love to see what they used to make such an awesome brew.
Thanks

sorry, gmail doesnt archive stuff for very long... I could post the recepie that I made from it I guess...

claphamsa said:

sorry, gmail doesnt archive stuff for very long... I could post the recepie that I made from it I guess...

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Sounds great, I'm sure others also would love to see your interpretation of nosferatu. Thanks and cheers.