I've been All Grain for about six months, one or two 5 gal batches a week. Recently been experiencing high efficiency's. Like the last four batches have been incrementally been increasing in efficiency. I went from batch spargeing to fly spargeing and back to batch because of time. Then I went from 70% eff.(which is normal) to 72%, 75%, 85%, and now 92% eff. Am I finally tuned in to my system or are the calculations or something else wrong.(I've double checked BTW). What your best Batch Sparge Efficiency??
What is your BEST Batch Sparge Efficiency's?
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I batch sparge and my efficiency is between 70%-75%. I find that the more that I mix the mash between sparges, the better my efficiency. It's the way my system works and I develop my grist bill and hopping accordingly.
I'm concerned about recipe repeatability and achieving the OG that I have aimed for, which is why I'm a bit anal about keeping track of my efficiency.
I'm concerned about recipe repeatability and achieving the OG that I have aimed for, which is why I'm a bit anal about keeping track of my efficiency.
strat_thru_marshall
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best efficiency or highest efficiency?
some craft and homebrewers will argue that an efficiency of 65-75% is best for flavor, while the mega brewers will argue that 95% is better for cost effectiveness of ingredients...
some craft and homebrewers will argue that an efficiency of 65-75% is best for flavor, while the mega brewers will argue that 95% is better for cost effectiveness of ingredients...
strat_thru_marshall
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It's been said that you risk extracting tannins and thus adding a level of astringency to your beer when you're running that high of an efficiency on a home brew scale (not on the macro-brewer scale of grind the grain to flour and then use a mash filter...).
I dont have any sources to cite at the moment, but a quick google search should support what I'm saying. I've never done the side-by-side experiment personally but I have read/heard it from many sources.
Beezy
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I have done 5 batches AG. 4 since I got a mill. From 77 to 82 with my own crush. Don't care if I get any higher.
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Well it depends...
How are you defining efficiency?
Into the kettle?
Post boil?
Into the fermenter?
How are you defining efficiency?
Into the kettle?
Post boil?
Into the fermenter?
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I mostly double batch sparge and get anywhere between 78-82% on normal sized beers. When I do the big ones I only get like 62-65% since I'm left with hardly any water to sparge with after using so much in the mash.
In a cooler MLT with no deadspace, I was consistent at 90% brewhouse with OG near 1.050. It went down as OG went up. When I moved to a keg based MLT wit a siphon based drain, I dropped down to 75%.
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Stevo2569
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High efficiency does not cause tannin extraction. That is just rubbish.
Chasing high efficiency and oversparging as a result can cause tannin extraction - but if with a reasonable process your system gives you a nice high efficiency, just be happy that you have a well designed brewery and a solid process and brew away.
A properly designed brewery, If it wasn't getting into the kettle efficiencies well higher than 80% it frankly means you are doing something wrong. You try to take the 85-90% efficiency your system "naturally" gets and flog it up to 95% by increasing your sparge amounts.... Then you might have an issue.
If your beer displays no tannin off flavours, you have no tannin extraction problems. Therefore you do not need to change your process in order to avoid the problem you do not have.
Agree or Disagree????
Chasing high efficiency and oversparging as a result can cause tannin extraction - but if with a reasonable process your system gives you a nice high efficiency, just be happy that you have a well designed brewery and a solid process and brew away.
A properly designed brewery, If it wasn't getting into the kettle efficiencies well higher than 80% it frankly means you are doing something wrong. You try to take the 85-90% efficiency your system "naturally" gets and flog it up to 95% by increasing your sparge amounts.... Then you might have an issue.
If your beer displays no tannin off flavours, you have no tannin extraction problems. Therefore you do not need to change your process in order to avoid the problem you do not have.
Agree or Disagree????
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From everything I've read, tannin extraction is a result of bad pH, often coupled with too high of temperatures...
Not really related to "high" efficiency, if you ask me...
The reason I asked about how you are defining efficiency is because that's important if you're trying to correct it.
For me, I measure efficiency into the fermenter. Many people, it's post-boil OG compared to potential post boil OG.
But I like to account for all of my losses, which includes losses of wort while transfering from boil kettle to fermenter.
samc
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My best beers are in the low 70's and I can't get motivated to chase % to save $1.50 on a batch of beer.
Beezy
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I measure with pre-boil gravity. Thought that was how you do it?
WilliamWS
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I batch sparge and have been getting 90-92% consistently over the past 10 months. During that time I've had only 2 out of 18 batches that didn't fall in that range: one came in at 88% and I attributed that to the pound of golden naked oats that I used for the first time in that recipe; the other was a triple decoction mash that I ended up with nearly 94% on.
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See, it depends what your goal is.
For me, my goal is to see what % of the possible total sugars wind up in the fermenter(s).
For others, they may only care to see what % of possible sugars they extract from the mash into the kettle.
Others may only care about what % of possible sugars they get post boil.
I am not saying there is a right or wrong answer; but for a generic "efficiency" question, it begs to know exactly what someone is talking about.
cyclonite
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I don't really qualify for traditional batch sparging, but with BIAB and a single batch 'dunk' sparge, I am consistent with 92-94% for < 1.075 OG. It tapers off with higher OG. At 1.090, I was at 88%. Biggest efficiency boost was getting my own mill and crushing finer, then adding the dunk sparge. I also condition my malt, and don't have any issues with tannin extraction (which some have voiced concern with using a finer crush, which you can do with BIAB).
Theis
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>90% is awesome, especially if the beer tastes great. I average 73% with cooler MLT and double batch sparge (great all-grain primer by the way Bobby M). Anyway as long as the extraction is consistent and reproducible then I am happy because I can predict my OG, (but 90% would be sweet).
I want to discuss, but the OP seems to be looking more for validation than discussion.
SkyHighBrew88
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I'm averaging and shoot my recipe's to plan for 85% but have gotten 91% twice. Still fine tuning...
Beezy
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AZ_IPA said:
Seriously though I thought efficiency is specifically to measure the extraction process? Maybe not but that is what I was lead to believe. Like for example you could boil you wort for 4 hours but that doesn't make your process efficient in anyway...
strat_thru_marshall
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Isn't higher efficiency, by definition, sparging more with less grain to achieve the same result as sparging less with more grain....when you really think about it? I mean, you can't possibly be trying to tell us that maltose is "naturally" more soluble in the water in your system than in someone else's system.
If you sparge 1 lb of grain with 1 gallon of water to get to 1.050, or .75 lb of grain with 1 gallon of water to get to 1.050....how is that not sparging more?
you may not be "chasing efficiency", but you're still sparging more and possibly over-sparging without even realizing it.
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Stevo2569
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I was looking validation as well as a discussion. The search didn't turn up much besides, "I've heard" and " I've read" type comments. Oh and the above "tannin rubbish" comment was a quote from another forum, not mine and to bold of a statement for someone with my experience Sorry. I'm no noob but no veteran either. I guess I'll just have to wait and see if flavor is lacking when the beers are done.
I think I'll chalk up the raise in eff. into the fermentor to stirring more like someone said. I have been stirring more lately. Guess should start timing it.
Thanks for all the comments, specially the HBT veterans.
I think I'll chalk up the raise in eff. into the fermentor to stirring more like someone said. I have been stirring more lately. Guess should start timing it.
Thanks for all the comments, specially the HBT veterans.
KingBrianI
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I can comment on the subject with the benefit of first-hand experience. I used to double batch sparge and was regularly getting around 90% efficiency into the fermenter. The beers tasted pretty good to me, but I knew they could be even better. At a competition, a couple of my beers were dinged for slight tannin presence. So I started single-batch sparging and my efficiency went down to around 75% into the fermenter. My beer definitely started tasting even better and no judge has mentioned tannins since.
Having said that, you could be perfectly happy with how your beer is tasting right now. If that's the case, keep aiming for maximum efficiency. If, however, you feel your beer can improve, try reducing the amount you're sparging and see if it makes a difference. I think a lot of homebrewers have "ugly-baby syndrome" where they can't taste or admit to off-flavors in their own beers. Your buddies may be loathe to mention them either, allowing that they are even capable of discerning them. If you want to keep improving your beer and you haven't already, enter a few of the beers you think are really good into a competition. Judges vary, but you'll probably get a better idea of whether your beers contain tannins or other off-flavors.
Having said that, you could be perfectly happy with how your beer is tasting right now. If that's the case, keep aiming for maximum efficiency. If, however, you feel your beer can improve, try reducing the amount you're sparging and see if it makes a difference. I think a lot of homebrewers have "ugly-baby syndrome" where they can't taste or admit to off-flavors in their own beers. Your buddies may be loathe to mention them either, allowing that they are even capable of discerning them. If you want to keep improving your beer and you haven't already, enter a few of the beers you think are really good into a competition. Judges vary, but you'll probably get a better idea of whether your beers contain tannins or other off-flavors.
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Stevo2569
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Great info. Good Idea. You are probably correct about the tasting. I don't think me or friends/family have a refined enough palate for that.
Enter some comps and you should get a decent supply of feedback. Enter more than a few though, because bad feedback is too common.
I single batch spathe and measure eff. going into the boil pot. I average 73%.
I single batch spathe and measure eff. going into the boil pot. I average 73%.
The maximum eff. you can get batch sparging is pretty easy to calculate. It is straight forward math.
Here are the equations:
http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/files/nbsparge.html
I have broke 90% many times on beers smaller than 1.050. I am skeptical that you did it on a 1.080 beer, at least if you were doing one batch sparge. If you did multiple sparge infusions than maybe, but I am still skeptical. I would be interested to see your grain amounts, volume & gravity measurements.
Here are the equations:
http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/files/nbsparge.html
I have broke 90% many times on beers smaller than 1.050. I am skeptical that you did it on a 1.080 beer, at least if you were doing one batch sparge. If you did multiple sparge infusions than maybe, but I am still skeptical. I would be interested to see your grain amounts, volume & gravity measurements.
This assumes that efficiency is tied only to amount of sparge. Don't forget that conversion efficiency due to pH, crush issues, and poor lauter tun design can drop it. You can run too much sparge water through that and still end up with a lower OG than someone who sparged the same amount with better conversion, better tun design, etc.
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Well, I'll speak just for me here...
I measure efficiency throughout the process. When I first started AG, I was getting post-boil efficiencies in the low 60s. In order to improve that, I needed to know where I was losing efficiency.
Thanks for Kia, Bobby_M, and some others, I started tracking it all along the way.
I know my definitions probably aren't the norm, but this is what I use:
conversion (mash) efficiency: the % of actual sugars converted in the mash (should be ~95+%)
lauter efficiency: the % of possible sugars actually captured into the kettle (this takes into account both volume and sugars lost to dead space in your MLT)
post-boil efficiency: the % of possible sugars when post-boil volume is reached
into the fermenter efficiency: the % of possible sugars into the fermenter (this takes into account volume loses through hops/break, etc.)
Now, I won't boil for hours just to "improve" my post-boil efficiency, but it's my opinion that if you're going to accurately look at your efficiency, and improve on it, you need to read this: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency
I was in the 58-62% range when I first started AG BIAB. Then jumped to 70-75% after building and using my converted cooler MT. I recently got a Barley Crusher mill and my efficiency ranges from 75-82%.
shanecb
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I get about 86-89% usually.
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