Is your beer better than anything you can get at the store?

I'm just curious.. Does anyone here have a beer that's objectively (i.e. you and a fairly large number of people agree) better than the best commercial example of that style you can find? If so, how long have you been brewing, and how long did it take you to perfect the recipe?

And if so, what's the recipe?

I would say depends on which store/restaurant/bar I go to. I like bitter beer and have made some darn fine ones. I made tastys Celebration clone which is really a more hopped up version of the beer and have had several hophead friends that said it was better than the SN version.

On the other hand I have made a clone of West Coast IPA that didn't turn out better and worse in fact

No. 7654321

I say it compliments it. Some of my beers are, some aren't. What commercial brewers really have on us homebrewers is consistency.

Also, IMO, its not the recipe that makes a beer. Its the brewer and process. You can take the Gold medal recipe for any style at the NHC, brew it and have it taste like crap.

No.

I think if you can make a beer that consistently (competition to competition and batch to batch) can score in the 40s, you should pat yourself on the back. Then you can start worrying about how you compare to commercial beer.

Note that I've never met anyone meeting the above criteria who would claim what they make is better than anything commercially available (I've never met a commercial brewer who would make the same claim either, their is a glut of flawless commercial beer, it comes down to subjective taste after that).

Some is, some isn't it depends on the beer, the brewery, my recipes, etc, a lot of variables. SOme beers I'll never come close to, some I'll never even try to brew and just enjoy the original.

BUT, I've done blind taste testing of a couple of my clones against the original, and usually my version prevails. The biggest one was yooper's dead guy clone against the original. It would win hands down, while my bell's amber clone would do about 50-50.

I think in a well made homebrew (either Extract OR Ag, btw, both clones were extract w/grains,) FRESHNESS is the issue that wins out. Homebrew just has a fresher taste than something that's travelled.

It may not ACTUALLY be better, but to the taster it is perceived as such. In fact one person said that my DG Clone tasted like they thought Dead Guy SHOULD taste like. Which I think was that it just was fresher and less travelled than the store bought version

That might be why, living in Michigan and pretty close to bell's, why going against a bell's product I only win half the time, Bell's doesn't travel far and has a higher turnover in metro detroit then Rogue does.

I've noticed the same thing in regional wines versus wines that travel a distance to get to us. Wines from local wineries just have a brightness, and freshness, that is missing with wines that may be made for

yes. i live in mississippi so i am naturally going to enjoy my double ipa much more than a seirra nevada pale ale which is about the best beer you can get here along side with rogue red ale and tallgrass ipa. i would say 90% of the beers i brew taste better than all of the beers i can get locally...if i was to move out of state on the other hand, no. just more of a reason to homebrew as much as possible.

I just made a clone of Raisin d'Etre which members of my homebrew club thought was much better than the original. I used an English yeast instead of a Belgian, which really allowed the specialty ingredients to shine through.

Besides that though, it seems the the overall opinion is that it is somehow wrong to think you are better than a commercial brewery. I don't know about you, but I have tasted quite a few commercial beers that outright suck. what is so magical about "commercial" beer that it automatically gets some kind of top rating?

airborneguy said:

besides that though, it seems the the overall opinion is that it is somehow wrong to think you are better than a commercial brewery. I don't know about you, but i have tasted quite a few commercial beers that outright suck. What is so magical about "commercial" beer that it automatically gets some kind of top rating?

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+1,000

Airborneguy said:

I just made a clone of Raisin d'Etre which members of my homebrew club thought was much better than the original. I used an English yeast instead of a Belgian, which really allowed the specialty ingredients to shine through.

Besides that though, it seems the the overall opinion is that it is somehow wrong to think you are better than a commercial brewery. I don't know about you, but I have tasted quite a few commercial beers that outright suck. what is so magical about "commercial" beer that it automatically gets some kind of top rating?

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Do you really not understand the difference between being better than some commercial beers and being better than any commercial beer?

Airborneguy said:

What is so magical about "commercial" beer that it automatically gets some kind of top rating?

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The fact that the bottom 80% of commercial beer is better than the top 20% of homebrew. I have tasted a lot of homebrew, a ton of them are bad.

Yes, some commercial brewers make beer that isn't the best. However, how many commercial beers have you had that gushed? How about one with noticeable acceldahyde? How about bacterial souring unintentionally.... etc. etc. etc.

While I recognize it is possible to brew truly great beer at home, almost no one does IME and opinion.

I am a strong advocate of realism and realist self criticism. The beer I brew is good, and many people rave about it. However, I and others who really drink good beer realize that the step from my "great" beer to anything that would be commercially viable is huge.

The fact that homebrew is "free" or that you made it makes the difference in your mind. Start charging market rates for your beer and you will see how good it really is...

spiffcow said:

I'm just curious.. Does anyone here have a beer that's objectively (i.e. you and a fairly large number of people agree) better than the best commercial example of that style you can find? If so, how long have you been brewing, and how long did it take you to perfect the recipe?

And if so, what's the recipe?

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That's still not an objective assessment. What's the "best" commercial example and how do you get an "objective" opinion? To paraphrase Caddyshack, I never keep score. How do I compare myself to other brewers? By height.

Homebrerwing has its advantages and so does a commercial setup. I think it's silly to obsess over which is "better" especially when that definition of "better" relies on the opinions of others. I'll compare my beers to commercial examples but only to see if I'm getting the style I'm aiming for.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

While I recognize it is possible to brew truly great beer at home, almost no one does IME and opinion.

I am a strong advocate of realism and realist self criticism. The beer I brew is good, and many people rave about it. However, I and others who really drink good beer realize that the step from my "great" beer to anything that would be commercially viable is huge.

The fact that homebrew is "free" or that you made it makes the difference in your mind. Start charging market rates for your beer and you will see how good it really is...

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100% agreed

I had one batch of Oktoberfest I would have put up against all comers. Other than that, it is a wash. One thing to keep in mind is that we are trying to brew beers exactly to OUR tastes, so in some respects it is an unfair comparison, pitting something brewed to your tastes against a brew of a similar style.

I have brewed 2 batches that are better than anything stylistically similar than I have ever had commercially. The other 20 or so are drinkable but not as good, and a couple I have brewed have been terrible.

However, I have tried commercial beers that have litterally made me gag, and nothing I have brewed has done that to me, no matter how oxidized or inadvertantly sour.

I'm a self proclaimed beer enthusiast. I think the only commercial beers I've had that I really didn't like were keystone ice, and the oyster beer at the porterhouse brew pub in Dublin.

That said homebrewing allows me to enjoy many beers off the tap in the comfort of my home that I wouldn't normally or economically be able to drink. If I feel like drinking 3 pints of Scottish 80schilling then I can and will.
If I feel like having some huge Belgian on tap, I get to enjoy the research prior to brewing and the end product after.

In the sense of accessibility and a geeky diy obsession I find my efforts more rewarding if not better than the commercial option.

Are your children better than any of the kids on TV?

leboeuf said:

...and the oyster beer...

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whoah. Did they actually use oysters in the production of said beer?

man that sounds nasty.

Are your children better than any of the kids on TV?

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Awesome analogy.

The oyster beer didn't have oysters in it, no idea about the name. They used a ton of anise or whatever licorice comes from and it actually gave me a stomach ache!

No. But I don't care, delicious is as delicious does.

remilard said:

Do you really not understand the difference between being better than some commercial beers and being better than any commercial beer?

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I knew the point I was making, and you are not asking a question which refutes it in any way.

I did not imply that homebrew is better than "any" commercial beer.

I asked what it is that is so magical about commercial beer that it automatically recieves a top rating for the style, as the prior posts implied. The prior posts I was addressing made it seem like a pipedream that a homebrewer could brew a better beer than a commercial brewery.

What automatically makes a commercial beer good? Hell, my question is valid without even assessing the quality of homebrew at all.

Revvy said:

That might be why, living in Michigan and pretty close to bell's, why going against a bell's product I only win half the time, Bell's doesn't travel far and has a higher turnover in metro detroit then Rogue does.

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the bells i get here in NC is incredible... i love their entire lineup.. they make incredible beer... IMO...

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

However, how many commercial beers have you had that gushed?

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I actually have had a lager from a now-defunct NJ brewery which was infected and had ropi-ness and gushed. I can't remember the name of the brewery, but either the beer or the brewery had "Trout" in the name. this was maybe 3-4 years ago.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

While I recognize it is possible to brew truly great beer at home, almost no one does IME and opinion.

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100% true, but that doesn't go against my question at all.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

However, I and others who really drink good beer realize that the step from my "great" beer to anything that would be commercially viable is huge.

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The recipe is not even the half of what makes a beer commercially viable. You probably brew a few recipes that would be commercially viable if you had the money to throw behind them. That is all that separates good homebrew from some commercial beers, and that is very realist.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

The fact that homebrew is "free" or that you made it makes the difference in your mind. Start charging market rates for your beer and you will see how good it really is...

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Again, you missed my point completely. This quote does not address my question at all.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Yes, some commercial brewers make beer that isn't the best. However, how many commercial beers have you had that gushed? How about one with noticeable acceldahyde? How about bacterial souring unintentionally.... etc. etc. etc.

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I actually got a L'Achouffe gusher a while back.. That was a waste of $10, and tasted like seltzer water.

I have had more commercial gushers than homebrew ones...although it is hard to gush in a keg.

If the question was changed to 'do you think your beer can stand up to commercial brews of the same style?' it would be a lot more realistic to think that some of the better homebrewers could answer yes to the question.

Since the question is 'do you brew the best X style in the world?' The answer is probably no.

But again, it isn't a fair fight either. Our beer is coddled all the way to our mouths, we don't have to deal with things like bottle shock in transport and the like. Sure, if both were entered in a competition and both transported very carefully, the commercial beer would probably win. I am guessing that the grocery store doesn't know all that much about storing beer though, and I am guessing the semi truck driver knows even less.

"what commercial beer has acetelaldehyde..."

Budweiser. Low amount, but it is there.

spiffcow said:

Does anyone here have a beer that's objectively (i.e. you and a fairly large number of people agree) better than the best commercial example of that style you can find?

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Given that most of the people I know will debate if Bud Light is better than Coors Light and are offended by the taste of hops, I may never know.

I understand that it's different, with homebrew being fresher and commercial having better equipment.. I'm really just concerned with the end product though.

And I ask this particularly because my latest batch is damn close to the best hefe I've ever tasted, anywhere. Now to be fair, they have to be shipped all the way from Germany, so I'm sure it wouldn't stand up as well there as it does here. But to me it doesn't matter, as my hefe is really close to German examples that I can actually get.

spiffcow said:

But to me it doesn't matter, as my hefe is really close to German examples that I can actually get.

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Exactly my point. It doesn't really matter who wins the contest, it matters who can get me the best beer while I am watching True Blood on the couch.

I think the question is wrong (of course, that's because I'm an arrogant argumentative bastard).

Here's my thinking. I like handmade, home baked bread. A lot. Its "better" in that I enjoy it more then commercial bread, I think. But its not better on an objective, measurable scale. It not consistent, its usually not even shaped consistently. It sometimes has big air holes in it. It definitely tastes different one batch from another. Wonder would go out of business if it tried to sell my home baked bread.

But I definitely think its better than Wonder bread.

One other thought I had was that a fair amount of the beer I brew just doesn't exist commercially. (Mostly gluten free brews) So in that case, I guess the answer would be yes, it is better than anything of that style at the store.

DKershner said:

Exactly my point. It doesn't really matter who wins the contest, it matters who can get me the best beer while I am watching True Blood on the couch.

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Heh, just noticed you're in OR.. I used to live in Portland, and I can honestly say I never really cared to homebrew while I was there.. I think if I had a kegging system while I was there I would have just bought kegs of McMinnamins and not thought any more on the subject. Yeah, you're gonna have a tougher fight with the commercial varieties than I am here in OK

spiffcow said:

Heh, just noticed you're in OR.. I used to live in Portland, and I can honestly say I never really cared to homebrew while I was there.. I think if I had a kegging system while I was there I would have just bought kegs of McMinnamins and not thought any more on the subject. Yeah, you're gonna have a tougher fight with the commercial varieties than I am here in OK

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Yeah, being able to see Deschutes from your house* doesn't help things, but they don't make a lot of styles of beer, and I like a serious variety.

And yes, I cannot compete with McMenamins stouts. They had a bourbon barrel one the other day that was crazy good.

I will admit that I tend to make the off normal beers because there is plenty around here to drink of the normal stuff that is very good. If I make a pale ale, it is for economy reasons alone.

*I can't actually see it from my house, it isn't THAT big of a building, but it sounded better than anything else I had to say.

I just put THIS in my mash and my beer is the awesomest, beeriest beer evar! beats every other beer on the planet.

jacob1484 said:

It's true! This cable outperforms the original! When I charge my phone, it's chargier. The data is more datery and the phone is more phoney in general. If I wear the cable around my neck like a bolo tie, people like me better and I can run faster and jump higher. If I circle my dinner plate with it, the food tastes better. Basically this cable makes everything better than the original. I'm thinking about getting a 2nd one!

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That review is super awesome.

I can say with 100% certainty that my Kentucky Common is better than any similar commercial beer I've ever had. Nevermind the fact that there's maybe one commercial example out there and I've never had it

My Freezer Special IIPA is better than Pliny, IMO. It's better because it's cheaper and much more readily available to me...

Everything's subjective...

until a commercial brewery goes as far as catering to my specific tastes, i'll prefer a good half of my beer to those i can buy. that doesn't mean anyone else would like them, but i brew so that i'll dig it, often not very true to style. there are also pleny of styels (belgian, sours, etc.) that will very likely always have better comercial examples than ones i can make (not factoring in cost)

I'd put most of my beers up against most commercial examples out there. There are certainly some outstanding commercial beers that I can't challenge (at least, not without several brews and tweaks to the same recipe.) And I have produced some beers that are mediocre at best.

But, overall, my consumption of commercial beers has plummeted. At this point, I have enough viable, proven recipes for most styles of beer that produce beers that are at least as good as the commercial 'average' for the style.

Last year a local brewery produced a wit, I tried it and hated it. So I made a wit, and damnit, it tasted exactly the same as the store bought (really, did a blind taste test with a group, and they're both awful.) So it comes to reason if I can brew a beer as badly as a commercial brewery, I should be able to brew a beer as good as a commercial brewery. They have money and consistancy, but there are a lot of bad commercially produced beers out there. Yes, I know there are a lot of bad homebrewed beers out there too.