First All-Grain Batch Woes

I brewed my first all grain batch a few weeks ago. Let me begin with, I may misuses some terms as I have not quite got them all down…please correct me if I misstate something. I wanted to give the process a try and hadn’t really visited the forum in a while to figure out what to do. I just wanted to try my hand at to see what would happen. I set out early to begin expecting a long day of work but it only added an extra 2 hours to the job. This was the first thing that struck me as odd, as I have heard that you really get into a “brew day” when you start all-grain brewing.

Having spot read Palmer’s stuff on all-grain, added the grain to the mash tun and then hit with my strike water, which was about 160F and got me to a mash temp of 150F. I was able to hold the around 150F for the hour, I believe that the temp came down about 3 degrees. During that hour I prepped, my sparge water. At the end of the hour, I preformed a vorlof and then began the run-off. I kept the water about an inch above the top of the grain adding water gently so not to disturb the grain bed. This took me about 20 minutes to get 6.5 gallons of wort to begin my boil. Then I began the boil process as I had done with extract. I ended up with right at 5 gallons at the end of the boil.

It had been in primary for about two weeks. When I looked at it on Friday, there was still quite a head of kruesen on the top. I pulled about half a pint, covered the top with plastic wrap and a rubber band, and went up to the HS. By the time I had gotten there the plastic wrap was bulging at the top (over about 20 minutes). We took a gravity reading at the shop and the beer was at 1.010. Tasting has signs of soapy and astringent flavors.

I have racked this beer to a keg right now and I’ve chilled it to crash out the yeast. I won’t carbonate it for a week or so. I believe the off-flavors are a result of not rinsing my equipment well after cleaning (used oxyclean for cleaning and iodophor for sanitzation).

Some things that I already know I need to do in the future:
1) Take gravity readings
2) Slower run-off into boil pot
3) Better planning prior to brewing
4) Spend more time studying the process

Not that this has taken the wind out of my sail, but this is the second batch with the off-flavors. I had to pour one batch out, as mentioned in another post over the weekend. The wife said I looked like some had told me that Santa Clause wasn't real again. I would appreciate any thoughts or recommendations on the process and the off-flavors.

If you still had krausen and the sample you pulled was still off gassing co2, then the beer wasn't done fermenting. The beer could very well be fine with some time to condition now that you have crashed out the yeast. I don't imagine that beer that is still fermenting would taste very good. Your description of your all grain process wasn't horribly detailed but it sounds about right (unless you made some mistakes you haven't outlined). Give us a better description of the off flavor.

My first all-grain had some weird off flavors too. When I brought it to the brew club the consensus was that it was a chlorine taste. I don't use bleach so it had to come from the city water. on the next batch I threw a campden tablet into the water and it came out much better

Hey don't be too hard on yourself. Sounds like you only have 2 probs to solve. Getting rid of the soap flavor and hitting your mash temps. I've got no idea about the soap flavors, someone with more experience than I will have to help there! Sounds like you may have a handle on that anyway though. As for hitting your mash temps I suggest conditioning your mash tun with 180 degree water, filling it up and letting it sit for about 15 mins. Luckily I learned this lesson on a partial mash brew!

Schlante and keep brewing,
Phillip

It was kind of a suprise to me that after two weeks it was still fermenting, but many things suprise me about this hobby. When we took a reading at the homebrew shop it was 1.010, but as you said still off gassing. As far as the flavors, it has a soapy and astringent finish. And maybe kind of a cardboard flavor. I'll need to take a sip this evening and will repost some more detail on the flavors.

That out gassing can be a bug (infection) eating sugars the yeast did not eat. My guess is that if you were to bottle this the bottles could become bombs and if you taste this beer later it will taste a lot worse than it tastes now. Another indication would be when you opened a bottle it would gush all over the place.

Sanitation: Rinse well after using cleaners. You need to be very sanitary with everything after the boil so use Starsan in a spray bottle or soak things in a bucket of Starsan. Rinsing well after the Starsan defeats Starsan. Do not fear the foam, it is a good thing.

Off Taste: There are all kinds of infections and an off taste is usually an infection. Sanitize your hands and anything else before touching anything that touches the beer and you will make clean tasting beer. All it takes is one slip up to infect the beer. Sanitize bottles, caps, hoses, etc.

WBC said:

....Sanitation: Rinse well after using cleaners. You need to be very sanitary with everything after the boil so use Starsan in a spray bottle or soak things in a bucket of Starsan. Rinsing well after the Starsan defeats Starsan. Do not fear the foam, it is a good thing.

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As far as my sanitation practices, I do exactly what you mentioned. I don't touch anything without dipping my hands in iodophor solution (I don't use Starsan...but have been planning to move to it). Now, that's not to say that I couldn't have missed something. Cleaning is really where I think this feel though the cracks and you hit the nail on the head..."Rinse well". I did go through and clean everything this weekend just as a precaution. And there was one thing I noted as odd, I had some oily bubbles in one of my carboys. I took some pictures and will post them this evening (not the carboy I had this batch in...but my other batch that I discarded). These bubbles were definatly not normal and appeared, as I said, to have an oily consistancy.

Sorry to kind of stray from the forum topic area.

It seems strange that there was still a bunch of Kruesen after two weeks. Did you shake the carboy or otherwise oxygenate and pitch enough yeast? Let it age for at least another month before you think about dumping it.
Did you fly sparge? if not, slower runoff makes no difference.

mew said:

It seems strange that there was still a bunch of Kruesen after two weeks. Did you shake the carboy or otherwise oxygenate and pitch enough yeast? Let it age for at least another month before you think about dumping it.
Did you fly sparge? if not, slower runoff makes no difference.

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The carboy was left undisturbed for the two weeks. I feel pretty confident that i didn't oxygenate it. But my pitch rate may have been low. I have certainly taken for granted that my other batches have turned out great without making a starter so I just pitched the vile of yeast. Also, I did fly sparge.

I tell you all now that I've learned two big lessons about brewing from your responses and that is to keep better records and plan my batches and brewday more in advance. I must say that my brewing has been a bit impromtu up to this point. Now that I'm moving to all-grain I think I need to be a bit more dilagent in my planning and documentation.

Well, a 20 minute fly sparge is too fast. That's one thing to think about. The other is possibly your mash tun design. What are you using as a separation medium (false bottom, manifold or braid)? I want to make sure it's appropriate for fly sparging.

Finally, put your strike water into the MLT first and go in a little hot, wait for the cooler to absorb some of that heat, then add your grain.

When you go to all grain, you're doing full boils so you really need to get oxygen back into that wort unless you're pitching a huge starter.

I'm using a manifold in my mash tun. With regard to the 20min fly sparge, the homebrew shop said the same thing...should have been around an hour+?

As far as adding grain to the water, I've seen this done on the BasicBrewingRadio.com all-grain video, but Palmer says to add the water to the grain.

Mash Tun:


Manifold:


Oily Bubbles in Carboy (picture may not do it justice...but this was oily...not just trapped air bubbles):


Re-tasting and pictures of beer to follow in a short while.

Here are some pictures of the beer...no CO2 added:




As far as taste, things have seemed to settle out a bit but there is still quite a soapy aftertaste and kind of a dry "been chewing on cardboard" taste/dryness after have a few drinks.

It sounds more like weird yeast flavors than infection to me. You need to oxygenate and pitch the right amount of yeast, otherwise you'll get some band aid/plastic/yeasty/other weird flavors from stressed yeast. I suggest reading how to brew all the way through.

edit: the oilyness is probably infection.

Did you cool it fast after the boil using a chiller? Letting it sit at 80F to 85F for hours is a great way to infect it. It seems thick and cloudy which indicates infection.

WBC said:

Did you cool it fast after the boil using a chiller? Letting it sit at 80F to 85F for hours is a great way to infect it. It seems thick and cloudy which indicates infection.

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Yes, I did cool it quickly down to about 80F using an imersion chiller. I did not however let it sit for hours before pitching the yeast. Once cooled the beer was racked to primary, aerated, yeast pitched and capped, covered to from light, and fermented at about 75F. This is primarily a wheat beer, so I wasn't concerned too much about the clarity and an infection did not really come to mind.

Ok then it did sit at 75F for a long time. That is not as good as 65F to 67F would have been with enough viable yeast working on it right away. Try to keep the fermentation lower temperature next time and you should have better results.

Kind of hard to tell, but the picture of the beer does look a little oily also so an infection is very possible. I like your manifold, looks slick and well made.
I would clean the heck out of the equipment, rinse very well, and use a strong idorphor to sanitize it next time.
I think by sparging too fast you may also have been pulling some tannins out. You should take hydro samples towards the ending of the sparge to make sure your not below 1.010.

post removed due to stupidity of poster posting on wrong thread!

WBC said:

Ok then it did sit at 75F for a long time. That is not as good as 65F to 67F would have been with enough viable yeast working on it right away. Try to keep the fermentation lower temperature next time and you should have better results.

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It did sit in primary for about two weeks at around 75. I would love to be able to drop that but it's not really in scope of thing right now. I will see what I can do about dropping the fermentation temp on future batches.

Kaukai, thanks for the compliment and the advice. The OG and FG are things that I am really going to have to start watching and being more careful to take readings.

I just want to thank everyone who has jumped in and has given their advice. I really appreciate the help.