trouble with my malty brews...help pls

the great majority of my beers so far have been on the hoppy side and have come out quite well. The few malty brews that I've done never really came out as I'd like them or as I'd picture (and taste) a malty beer so I'd love some help with finding out why my malty beers don't taste malty.

I've brewed a brown ale, Jamil's irish red, JAmil's Taddy porter, Biermuncher's oktoberfast ale and Revy's leffe clone. None of them turned out well and the malt taste was dull or not present and IMO all of them share some kind of same base flavour that I can't really describe. It doesn't seem to be an off flavour (wasn't detected by others and didn't seem to bother them) but distracts. And there is no sweetness to them at all.

I seem to be doing ok on hitting my mash temps and gravity. I've started treating the bottled water I use about ten brews ago but it also doesn't seem to make a difference.

Brief description of my setup: I brew 10-15L (2,5-4Gallon) batches on a stove top BIAB setup; I do all grain with about 10-15% extract addition due to limited mashtun space; usual mash is 3kg of grain in 12L of water (spring water; started to modify on last 10 brews); I sparge with 2,5L to get about 12-13L boil volume and after cooling with a coil top it up with 3-5L cold spring water. I'Ve used liquid but mainly use rehydrated dry yeast and primary only in a chest freezer at 19-20C (66-68F) for 2-3 weeks and then bottle.

The last two malty recipes that I've tried were Biermuncher's Oktoberfast ale https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=39021 (only change to recipe was a change in hops,i.e. different noble hops and subbing some extract for pilsner due to mash tun space).

After 3 weeks in primary and a month in the bottle it doesn't seem to have any off flavours but it's not the least bit sweet and the malt taste doesn't come through. It's not bitter either but just somehow a dull brew that's kind of drinkable but not tasty.

Revy's leff clone also came out tasting more like alcohol than malt; none of that nice, sweet pilsner taste present. IT did finish a bit drier than it should've (1,010 instead of 1,012) but that's not a biggie. This one at least might get better with time....

Well, anyway, that's all I've got for now and if you have any good suggestions or need more specific info on my process, please let me know.

Thanks!

I know you said you BIAB, but what kind of mash temp are you using? Try mashing a little warmer and maybe incorporate some flaked barley to give some additional body. My guess is a low mash temp and the extract are giving you a thinner body overall.

paperairplane said:

I know you said you BIAB, but what kind of mash temp are you using? Try mashing a little warmer and maybe incorporate some flaked barley to give some additional body. My guess is a low mash temp and the extract are giving you a thinner body overall.

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Wel, different temps for different beers. But the oktoberfast ale for example I mashed at 68,9C (156F). I don't have a problem with the body being thin and also I don't think that 10-15% of extract would make such a difference.

Thanks for your help!

What yeast are you using? Could you be over attenuating?

Maybe try Marris Otter instead of pilsner or 2-row?

water: Your using spring water. What's the mineral content of the water? Important to know this otherwise your paying a premium for no benefit. Use RO or distilled and go from there. Spring water is as specific a term as tap water. Totally meaningless.

Don't do any mineral additions unless you know what your working with. Your more likely to harm than good. Or at least just as likely.

Chest freezer. I assume you already are but be sure to monitor the beer temperature, not the ambient temperature. 68F is too warm for my tastes. If it's 68F ambient, that is not good IMO.

Your doing partial mash. Late additions of DME are often advised to prevent overly darkening the beer. Reducing the heat during the addition to prevent scorching.

Bring some beers to a club meeting or a competition. Get some expert feedback. This is a very valuable tool.

You may be doing all or some of the above. It may be all useless info.

MrFancyPlants said:

What yeast are you using? Could you be over attenuating?

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Different types of yeast. I wouldn't call 2 gravity points over attenuating. In general I pretty much hit my numbers and especially the last 7-8 brews have fermented out well (before I had a problem with finishing high).

Gavin C said:

water: Your using spring water. What's the mineral content of the water? Important to know this otherwise your paying a premium for no benefit. Use RO or distilled and go from there. Spring water is as specific a term as tap water. Totally meaningless.

Don't do any mineral additions unless you know what your working with. Your more likely to harm than good. Or at least just as likely.

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I know the specs of my bottled water; mainly it is very soft but high alcalinity. I add lactic acid to balance according to EZ water and Brunwater but only on my last brew could verify with a ph meter and seems the prediction isn't accurate. Instead of 5.4 I got a 5.2 mash ph. Could that be enough to cause my problem?

Gavin C said:

Chest freezer. I assume you already are but be sure to monitor the beer temperature, not the ambient temperature. 68F is too warm for my tastes. If it's 68F ambient, that is not good IMO.

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Yes, I am monitoring the beer temp.

Gavin C said:

Your doing partial mash. Late additions of DME are often advised to prevent overly darkening the beer. Reducing the heat during the addition to prevent scorching.

Bring some beers to a club meeting or a competition. Get some expert feedback. This is a very valuable tool.

You may be doing all or some of the above. It may be all useless info.

Click to expand...

Yes, here in Barcelona there aren't really any clubs (Actually I started the first one but tonight I plan to take some bottles to a craft beer place where some knowledgeable people are.
Thanks for your help!

On the mash pH question.

What meter are you using.

How do you calibrate it.

When during the mash do you take the sample?

Do you cool it to room temperature to take a reading.

Can you post a link to the water profile you have. Would be interesting to see the content of

Ca Na So4 Cl Mg Fe and the total hardness.

I ferment my ales in the low 60's usually, bumping up to 68F to ensure full attenuation. Diffrent taste prefernces trup everthing of course. Some yeasts will behave very differently at low v higher range temperatures. s-05 is a common one.

If you are buying water I would advise RO or distilled. You'll get a blank canvas with which to work for no greater price. Add a few cents worth of minerals and you'll have optimal water for any style of beer you want.

best of luck. Hope you get some useful feedback

Gavin C said:

On the mash pH question.

What meter are you using.

How do you calibrate it.

When during the mash do you take the sample?

Do you cool it to room temperature to take a reading.

Can you post a link to the water profile you have. Would be interesting to see the content of

Ca Na So4 Cl Mg Fe and the total hardness.

I ferment my ales in the low 60's usually, bumping up to 68F to ensure full attenuation. Diffrent taste prefernces trup everthing of course. Some yeasts will behave very differently at low v higher range temperatures. s-05 is a common one.

If you are buying water I would advise RO or distilled. You'll get a blank canvas with which to work for no greater price. Add a few cents worth of minerals and you'll have optimal water for any style of beer you want.

best of luck. Hope you get some useful feedback

Click to expand...

If the expected ph of 5,4 was wrong on all water-modified brews so far (last 8 brews) then I might have been as low on my mash PH as 5.1 or 5.2 on some of them so I don't know if that could be a problem but since I have the same problem with the malty brews before and after I started messing with my water (although I only have 4-5 brews to compare) it might not be it.

I get your point on using RO or distilled water but I have the specs on my water from the company and so it should be fine (Ca 43, Mg 12, Na 12, Cl 11, So 19, BIcarbonate 167). I adjust accordingly with lactic acid and some gypsum and Calcium chloride; nothing out of the ordinary if the predictions are correct....

My ph meter is an Extech PH100 and seems pretty decent.
I calibrate it as to the manual's instructions with PH 7 and 4 solutions rinsing with distilled water.

Sample taken after 15mins and after 45mins in the mash, measured at room temp.

While I haven't ever fermented as low as you have, my temperatures are very normal.

Thanks again!

@tomaso One thing I notice is that you seem to relate maltiness with sweetness, or at least you mention lack of sweetness several times. Malty does not denote sweet, and vice-versa. If you want to brew a sweet beer then you use techniques for sweet beers; and if you want to brew malty beers then you use techniques for malty beers; and, finally, if you want to brew sweet and malty beers then you combine the techniques. Dopple bock is a sweet malty beer, marzen/octoberfest/festbier is a malty beer.

Simplistic approach to a sweet malty beer:
-IBU:GU ratio of ~0.4
-Gravity of >=1.055
-Avoid too much sulfate use; opt for chloride instead
-Minimal or no late hop usage
-Low-ish attenuating yeast strain with malt enhancing qualities
-Moderate high mash temps
-Ingredients that promote sweetness in beers
-Ingredients that promote maltiness in beers

Hope this helps!

stpug said:

@tomaso One thing I notice is that you seem to relate maltiness with sweetness, or at least you mention lack of sweetness several times. Malty does not denote sweet, and vice-versa. If you want to brew a sweet beer then you use techniques for sweet beers; and if you want to brew malty beers then you use techniques for malty beers; and, finally, if you want to brew sweet and malty beers then you combine the techniques. Dopple bock is a sweet malty beer, marzen/octoberfest/festbier is a malty beer.

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Thanks for reminding me of that. I think you're right in that I equate these two too much. The main beer in question here, Biermuncher's Oktoberfast Ale, actually should have both characteristics, as he says so himself ('lots of malt. lots of sweet'), but my version of his beer isn't sweet at all and the malt taste isn't what I'd like or expect from malt.

On top of that there is this shared, weird character that is common to my other 'malty' brews as well (hope to identify it soon with some help).

It fits all the characteristics you describe below (except for the yeast maybe, but saf-04 should be fine, right?), yet it's neither sweet nor malty in a good way.

At the moment my best (and wild) guess is either

.) Mash ph; but even if it's as low as 5,1-5,2, will that have such a drastic effect?; also the top up with 5L (i.e. third of whole batch) of soft, untreated water at the end before fermenting.... not sure if that might play a role...?

.) the mash temp; but since I hit my OG and it ferments out to where it should (including a fast ferment sample) it seems it's fine. At least it seems to me that I can conclude from that that the mash temp is what I thought it was.

.) maybe for some reason I extract too much bitterness from the hops...

Am a bit at a loss here....

stpug said:

Simplistic approach to a sweet malty beer:
-IBU:GU ratio of ~0.4
-Gravity of >=1.055
-Avoid too much sulfate use; opt for chloride instead
-Minimal or no late hop usage
-Low-ish attenuating yeast strain with malt enhancing qualities
-Moderate high mash temps
-Ingredients that promote sweetness in beers
-Ingredients that promote maltiness in beers

Hope this helps!

Click to expand...

Thanks again!

Your 5.2 ph will not have enough effect.

I'm curious what it is that you consider malty. Can you name a couple internationally known beers that we might know as a basis?

My first thought would be to change your base malt. If your using generic 2 row, change to Marris Otter or even more drastic, go to Munich. Munich will for sure give you over the top results.

I don't think it will be drastic, but I think bumping up from 5.1-5.2 to 5.4-5.5, but I think it will be noticeable. Especially if you're actually at 5.1 and you bring it up to 5.5.

I would give just plain RO water a shot without making any adjustments and see what happens. My tap is basically RO and the only adjustment I make is with acidulated malt. For my malty beers I aim for 5.4-5.5, and I have recently done a nut brown ale, an ESB, and an Oktoberfest ale (brulosophers), and they all turned out great.

As far as a malt flavor that will be coming directly from the specific malts you're using. If you're wanting sweet and malty I would be aiming for more like 1.014 FG or higher.

tomaso said:

Thanks for reminding me of that. I think you're right in that I equate these two too much. The main beer in question here, Biermuncher's Oktoberfast Ale, actually should have both characteristics, as he says so himself ('lots of malt. lots of sweet'), but my version of his beer isn't sweet at all and the malt taste isn't what I'd like or expect from malt.

On top of that there is this shared, weird character that is common to my other 'malty' brews as well (hope to identify it soon with some help).

Click to expand...

5-Gallon batch
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.017
IBU: 20
3.77 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM
2.22 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)
1.78 lb Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)
0.89 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM)
0.89 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM)
0.44 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
0.44 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)
0.89 oz Tettnang [3.20%] (60 min)
0.44 oz Tettnang [3.20%] (45 min)
0.44 oz Tettnang [3.20%] (30 min)
Safale-04

Above is a rough-scaled version of BMuncher's OFast recipe. It uses lots of highly kilned base malts, melanoidin malts, and crystal malts - plus a healthy shot of pilsner for the base. In your case (partial mash), you should be basically mashing all of the grains everything except for a little pilsner. The little bit of pilsner you didn't mash will be made up with malt extract.

You'll be mashing really hot at about 158F, which also means conversion should take no longer than 45minutes max.

Your FG should be pretty high for the OG of the beer and the yeast strain in question (S-04) - 1.017.

Last, the IBU:GU ratio is nicely low (0.39) and should be maintained by adjusting hopping amounts based on the AA of the actual hops you buy.

Mash pH will have some degree of effect on the beer (everything does), as will carbonation level. Your lower mash pH will lend a crisper/drier quality to the beer, whereas up at 5.4 should not do that as much.

If you're using brewing salts, leave out any additional sulfate and only use chloride - but don't go overboard (less is more).

As for the weird character, S-04 tends to be a "love it / hate it" yeast strain. If kept in a low temp fermentation range (64F, no higher) for this strain then most folks seem to think it's okay. If allowed to get warmer as would be traditional for british yeast strains (68-70F) then most folks find it has an objectionable quality about it. I've only used it a couple times and always at 64F - never an objectionable quality to me.

tomaso said:

It fits all the characteristics you describe below (except for the yeast maybe, but saf-04 should be fine, right?), yet it's neither sweet nor malty in a good way.

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It does fit the characteristics of a sweet and malty beer, and the yeast should be fine also. The "process" cannot be discounted here, though. The process and what it results in is equally as important as the recipe. Process: Mash high, short mash, keep all character malts and sub pilsner for extract, ferment restrained, high FG, etc.

tomaso said:

At the moment my best (and wild) guess is either

.) Mash ph; but even if it's as low as 5,1-5,2, will that have such a drastic effect?; also the top up with 5L (i.e. third of whole batch) of soft, untreated water at the end before fermenting.... not sure if that might play a role...?

Some effect, yes, but not overwhelming effect.

.) the mash temp; but since I hit my OG and it ferments out to where it should (including a fast ferment sample) it seems it's fine. At least it seems to me that I can conclude from that that the mash temp is what I thought it was.

It's good that you're finishing that high on this beer.

.) maybe for some reason I extract too much bitterness from the hops...

It's possible. As long as you're adjusting hop amounts based on AA of the hops you're getting then you should be good. Low AA hops are important in this recipe as they impart a "less firm" bitterness, IMO.

Am a bit at a loss here....



Thanks again!

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Bellybuster said:

Your 5.2 ph will not have enough effect.

I'm curious what it is that you consider malty. Can you name a couple internationally known beers that we might know as a basis?

My first thought would be to change your base malt. If your using generic 2 row, change to Marris Otter or even more drastic, go to Munich. Munich will for sure give you over the top results.

Click to expand...

To be honest I can mainly give you examples of lagers cause most Ales I drink are on the hoppy side... but I'm from Vienna originally so of course there we have a lot of malty lagers. Recently I had negra modelo again which I love, also here in Barcelona where I live we have a beer from Cruz Campo called 'Gran reserva' which is very malty with some caramel notes.
But to be honest I really can't think of any commercial craftbrews that are malty, except one or two that you won't have in the US.
Another beer is Dr.Smurto's golden ale, A friend of mine brewed that and it seemed very malty to me. Loved it. I brewed it as well and the maltiness didn't come through (still was a nice beer); the second time I brewed it there was more malt taste but still not as nice as his.

stpug said:

Above is a rough-scaled version of BMuncher's OFast recipe.

You'll be mashing really hot at about 158F, which also means conversion should take no longer than 45minutes max.

Your FG should be pretty high for the OG of the beer and the yeast strain in question (S-04) - 1.017.

Last, the IBU:GU ratio is nicely low (0.39) and should be maintained by adjusting hopping amounts based on the AA of the actual hops you buy.

Mash pH will have some degree of effect on the beer (everything does), as will carbonation level. Your lower mash pH will lend a crisper/drier quality to the beer, whereas up at 5.4 should not do that as much.

If you're using brewing salts, leave out any additional sulfate and only use chloride - but don't go overboard (less is more).

Click to expand...

Did all of the above I think with success. The only thing I don't really get is that the beer doesn't seem to have as much body as I'd expect from the high mash temp and high FG (1,016). It's not thin but not full either.

stpug said:

As for the weird character, S-04 tends to be a "love it / hate it" yeast strain. If kept in a low temp fermentation range (64F, no higher) for this strain then most folks seem to think it's okay. If allowed to get warmer as would be traditional for british yeast strains (68-70F) then most folks find it has an objectionable quality about it. I've only used it a couple times and always at 64F - never an objectionable quality to me.


It does fit the characteristics of a sweet and malty beer, and the yeast should be fine also. The "process" cannot be discounted here, though. The process and what it results in is equally as important as the recipe. Process: Mash high, short mash, keep all character malts and sub pilsner for extract, ferment restrained, high FG, etc.

Click to expand...

Now what you say about the S-04 having a weird character is very interesting. I've used it a lot and I always ferment around 19-21C (i.e. 66-70F) so maybe that plays a role. Also, when a professional brewer tried this beer his first guess was a belgian beer because he said that the yeast flavor seemed so dominant. So maybe it just overpowers the malt for some reason?

Cause the thing is that it doesn't seem to be an off flavour!

In one or two other of malty brews I've used Nottingham instead of s-04. Does that have similar characteristics if fermented in my range? Cause those beers (A brown ale and a brown porter) also have this same IMO non-malty (maybe fruity?), weird characteristic. I wish I could pin point it! Actually gave a bottle to a BJCP judge here and hope he can shed some light on it!

Guess a good way to find out is to brew it again and ferment lower or with another yeast... any ideas?

Thanks!

I'Ve brewed another, smaller (1 Gallon) batch of this same beer, trying to replicate it as best as I could and I've set the ferm temp to 17C instead of my usual 19,5-20C. I usually attach the probe to the carboy but just checked and with the previous version of this Oktoberfast ale it seems that due to another beer in the fermentor I actually let it ferment at about 20C ambient temp! So I really hope there will be some change here ... will report back in about ten days... after bottling.

Btw, I really don't get why Beermuncher would use Safale-04 for his Oktoberfast ale in the first place.... It's a highly attenuative, English ale yeast and for this beer the idea is to get residual sweetness and a very clean beer. Wouldn't it seem more natural to use a clean, low attenuative yeast?

tomaso said:

I'Ve brewed another, smaller (1 Gallon) batch of this same beer, trying to replicate it as best as I could and I've set the ferm temp to 17C instead of my usual 19,5-20C. I usually attach the probe to the carboy but just checked and with the previous version of this Oktoberfast ale it seems that due to another beer in the fermentor I actually let it ferment at about 20C ambient temp! So I really hope there will be some change here ... will report back in about ten days... after bottling.

Btw, I really don't get why Beermuncher would use Safale-04 for his Oktoberfast ale in the first place.... It's a highly attenuative, English ale yeast and for this beer the idea is to get residual sweetness and a very clean beer. Wouldn't it seem more natural to use a clean, low attenuative yeast?

Click to expand...

I'm not 100% on this so don't quote me, but I think his thinking was that for dry yeasts, it is actually one of the low attenuative ones (especially out of the ones available when he posted the recipe). I personally tried replicating Brulosopher's oktoberfest hybrid, and went with white labs' kolsch yeast fermented around 14C.

tomaso said:

I'Ve brewed another, smaller (1 Gallon) batch of this same beer, trying to replicate it as best as I could and I've set the ferm temp to 17C instead of my usual 19,5-20C. I usually attach the probe to the carboy but just checked and with the previous version of this Oktoberfast ale it seems that due to another beer in the fermentor I actually let it ferment at about 20C ambient temp! So I really hope there will be some change here ... will report back in about ten days... after bottling.

Click to expand...

That's too bad that this batch ended up fermenting at the upper-end again. If you find the same character in this beer then maybe next time you switch up the yeast altogether just to experience the difference.

tomaso said:

Btw, I really don't get why Beermuncher would use Safale-04 for his Oktoberfast ale in the first place.... It's a highly attenuative, English ale yeast and for this beer the idea is to get residual sweetness and a very clean beer. Wouldn't it seem more natural to use a clean, low attenuative yeast?

Click to expand...

I've never found it to be overly attenuative in my beers (70% AA with an ~153F mash temp; standard OG; standard grist). It IS a british yeast strain (Whitbread B, IIRC) with some malt-preserving/enhancing qualities. On paper, it should be a good strain.

Many "clean" strains have the ability to subdue (i.e. not enhance) the malt character of a beer which is not what you'd want in this beer; but there might a less fruity british strain that also promotes maltiness in a beer (wyeast 1318 should do that). And, of course, you can target attenuation based on mash temp so that's always a dial you can play with when brewing.

stpug said:

That's too bad that this batch ended up fermenting at the upper-end again. If you find the same character in this beer then maybe next time you switch up the yeast altogether just to experience the difference.

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I think he meant the previous batch had actually fermented that high when he went back and checked his notes on that batch. But that this one was fermented lower.

joshesmusica said:

I think he meant the previous batch had actually fermented that high when he went back and checked his notes on that batch. But that this one was fermented lower.

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Thanks for pointing that out. I thought s/he meant a new batch that had just been brewed as a fermentation temperature test. My misunderstanding.

joshesmusica said:

I think he meant the previous batch had actually fermented that high when he went back and checked his notes on that batch. But that this one was fermented lower.

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haha, yes you're right.
Now on day 4, seems to be doing fine. Fermentation wasn't as vigorous at 17C as it is usually at 19-20C which I guess is to be expected. Fast ferment sample finished according to expected FG so I guess the actual beer will finish a bit higher which is fine with me. Just hope it's clean and that this solves my problem!

joshesmusica said:

I'm not 100% on this so don't quote me, but I think his thinking was that for dry yeasts, it is actually one of the low attenuative ones (especially out of the ones available when he posted the recipe). I personally tried replicating Brulosopher's oktoberfest hybrid, and went with white labs' kolsch yeast fermented around 14C.

Click to expand...

That sounds like a nice combination. Just order some liquid yeast and will try this oktoberfest the next time with some other yeast.

stpug said:

I've never found it to be overly attenuative in my beers (70% AA with an ~153F mash temp; standard OG; standard grist). It IS a british yeast strain (Whitbread B, IIRC) with some malt-preserving/enhancing qualities. On paper, it should be a good strain.

Many "clean" strains have the ability to subdue (i.e. not enhance) the malt character of a beer which is not what you'd want in this beer; but there might a less fruity british strain that also promotes maltiness in a beer (wyeast 1318 should do that). And, of course, you can target attenuation based on mash temp so that's always a dial you can play with when brewing.

Click to expand...

Regarding the change of attenuation through mash temp (correct me if i'm wrong pleast)... I've just read again how the beer, if mashed high and therefore finishing at higher FG, will not be sweet because the sugars from higher mash temps are not actually sweet but only give you body. So my thinking is that if i want sweet I need a low-medium mash temp,i.e. I need to produce a lot of simple sugars and then use a low-attenuating yeast that leaves more of those simple, sweet sugars behind.
Or will that same yeast also leave more simple sugars at a higher mash temp?

If you can get Wyeast Thames Valley (#1275) or Wyeast Denny's Favorite 50 (#1450), they are VERY good at accentuating malt; coupled with Maris Otter especially. One man's opinion.

tomaso said:

That sounds like a nice combination. Just order some liquid yeast and will try this oktoberfest the next time with some other yeast.



Regarding the change of attenuation through mash temp (correct me if i'm wrong pleast)... I've just read again how the beer, if mashed high and therefore finishing at higher FG, will not be sweet because the sugars from higher mash temps are not actually sweet but only give you body. So my thinking is that if i want sweet I need a low-medium mash temp,i.e. I need to produce a lot of simple sugars and then use a low-attenuating yeast that leaves more of those simple, sweet sugars behind.
Or will that same yeast also leave more simple sugars at a higher mash temp?

Click to expand...

It's not that the more complex sugars are not sweet. They are. Just not as sweet as the simple sugars. They will add both body and sweetness. But if you're wanting really sweet, then yeah your idea of low-medium mash temp and a low-attenuating yeast will do that for you. But doing it this way will also give a little less body. I think especially in a marzen (oktoberfest) or styles like that, it's not necessarily sweetness that is doing the trick, but body.

But that's the fun thing about this hobby, just try different combinations and figure out what you like best.

tomaso said:

haha, yes you're right.
Now on day 4, seems to be doing fine. Fermentation wasn't as vigorous at 17C as it is usually at 19-20C which I guess is to be expected. Fast ferment sample finished according to expected FG so I guess the actual beer will finish a bit higher which is fine with me. Just hope it's clean and that this solves my problem!

Click to expand...

Bottled this one a few days ago and unfortunately the lower ferm temp doesn't seem to have made much differnce. Tasted almost exactly the same as the original, higher ferm temp one at bottling time...

well, don't know what else it could be.... will try to change me brew kettle and see if that makes any difference...

tomaso said:

Bottled this one a few days ago and unfortunately the lower ferm temp doesn't seem to have made much differnce. Tasted almost exactly the same as the original, higher ferm temp one at bottling time...

well, don't know what else it could be.... will try to change me brew kettle and see if that makes any difference...

Click to expand...

I don't know why the kettle would make a difference.

Did you do anything with the water on this one? I really think that to get a good malty flavor, you should aim for four things:

1) Higher mash temp, around 156

2) Higher mash pH, around 5.5. Search the forums on water, or just ask Martin Brungard what additions to reverse osmosis water will help accentuate the malt flavor.

3) Less efficiency. There are plenty of people trying to get the most out of their grains, but at some points, this will actually start to take away from the flavor you're getting from them. Think of it this way: If you get say 85% efficiency, then you have 5 kilos of grains in order to reach an OG of 1.061. Now let's say that you get instead, 60% efficiency, then all of a sudden you need 7 kilos in order to get 1.060 OG! Those two extra kilos will add a ton more flavor! Most people think that the flavor comes from the husks anyways, and not necessarily from the starches/sugars.

4) A yeast strain that accentuates the malts; not the hops, and not too much yeast character.

tomaso, I have the exact same problem as you...can brew very nice hoppy beers but my malty brews suck. It's been that way for a long time. Let me know if you ever figure out something !

matc said:

tomaso, I have the exact same problem as you...can brew very nice hoppy beers but my malty brews suck. It's been that way for a long time. Let me know if you ever figure out something !

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I highly recommend taking a look at the list I gave him. I really think if you can nail down those four things, you'll have a malt-forward beer on your hands.

joshesmusica said:

I don't know why the kettle would make a difference.

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Me neither, but am at a loss here...

joshesmusica said:

Did you do anything with the water on this one?

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Just added a bit of calcium chloride but no lactic acid this time as EZ water previewed a ph of 5,45 without and indeed my ph was spot on.

Now about the next part, high mash temp, check! higher mash ph, check! malty yeast strain, maybe check... (S-04 should be fine, right?)!

But what you are saying about the efficiency is very interesting... I've had pretty high efficiency lately (~85%) due to the fine crush.

What you say about the flavor suffering from the high efficiency makes and doesn't make sense to me at the same time... Do you have any actual experience (or second hand) that you can base this on?

I did a search and came up with these interesting threads...
But the conclusion seems to be that no one really can conclusively decide the issue, neither by experience nor theory.

Anyway, it might work so I'll try to give it a try soon. brew the same oktoberfast again and adjust my mill to get 75% or lower efficiency.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=335529&page=4

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=97792&hilit=efficiency+theor*&start=15

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/efficiency-question.18493/

joshesmusica said:

I really think that to get a good malty flavor, you should aim for four things:

1) Higher mash temp, around 156

2) Higher mash pH, around 5.5. Search the forums on water, or just ask Martin Brungard what additions to reverse osmosis water will help accentuate the malt flavor.

3) Less efficiency. There are plenty of people trying to get the most out of their grains, but at some points, this will actually start to take away from the flavor you're getting from them. Think of it this way: If you get say 85% efficiency, then you have 5 kilos of grains in order to reach an OG of 1.061. Now let's say that you get instead, 60% efficiency, then all of a sudden you need 7 kilos in order to get 1.060 OG! Those two extra kilos will add a ton more flavor! Most people think that the flavor comes from the husks anyways, and not necessarily from the starches/sugars.

4) A yeast strain that accentuates the malts; not the hops, and not too much yeast character.

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Thanks for your help!

matc said:

tomaso, I have the exact same problem as you...can brew very nice hoppy beers but my malty brews suck. It's been that way for a long time. Let me know if you ever figure out something !

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Always comforting to know that one doesn't suffer alone

What's your process? Do you incorporate the things Johesmusica has listed and that were listed previously in this thread?

I am doing almost all of these things. The thing about the high efficiency will be my next try and see if that fixes the issue.

But the thing is that my malty brews don't taste watery or thin. There is just another flavor there that seems to obscure the malt... so some people said it might be yeast but after lowering fermtemp and thinking I treat the yeast well I can maybe rule that out...

Also I have a relatively 'unbitter' bitter fermenting right now (about 0,6 IBU/OG) with West yorkshire ale yeast so let's see if the malty flavor is more accentuated there due to that yeast...

Good luck to you! Let me know if you come up with anything.
Any experiment planned?

I don't have any factual evidence as to why this would be the case. I also don't have the capability to set this up and run the experiment side-by-side. It mainly just seems logical. You end up having more grains at the lower efficiency, and if the flavor mainly comes from the husks, then it would make sense that because you're adding more husks to the mash, then you're also adding more flavor. But just to be sure, this isn't brewhouse efficiency, this is mash efficiency we're talking about here.

But in going back and reading through your set-up and processes again, I had one more question: Are you making sure your sparge water is the proper pH level? If you have high pH and are sparging at high temps, then you could be extracting tannins.

Also, are you measuring your runnings; first runnings and last runnings? I wonder if the end of your sparge is beginning to get pretty thin?

Another thing concering your mash, it seems that you have a water to grist ratio of 1.92 (that's measured in qts/lbs). I wonder if you take that down to more like 1.5 if that would help. So with your 3 kg of grains, you would mash with 9.5L of water, and then sparge until you reach your 12-13L. Just another thought to try in the future.

joshesmusica said:

I don't have any factual evidence as to why this would be the case. I also don't have the capability to set this up and run the experiment side-by-side. It mainly just seems logical. You end up having more grains at the lower efficiency, and if the flavor mainly comes from the husks, then it would make sense that because you're adding more husks to the mash, then you're also adding more flavor. But just to be sure, this isn't brewhouse efficiency, this is mash efficiency we're talking about here.

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Well, but do you have any source(s) that give evidence that the flavor is mainly in the husks? It seems a bit far-fetched to me because if it really had such an impact then it would seem to me that it should feature prominently in most of the 'how to brew' literature but in the books/articles I've read so far there's no mention of it.
But as I said, it does seem logical in a way so I definitely want to give it a try!

joshesmusica said:

But in going back and reading through your set-up and processes again, I had one more question: Are you making sure your sparge water is the proper pH level? If you have high pH and are sparging at high temps, then you could be extracting tannins.

Also, are you measuring your runnings; first runnings and last runnings? I wonder if the end of your sparge is beginning to get pretty thin?

Another thing concering your mash, it seems that you have a water to grist ratio of 1.92 (that's measured in qts/lbs). I wonder if you take that down to more like 1.5 if that would help. So with your 3 kg of grains, you would mash with 9.5L of water, and then sparge until you reach your 12-13L. Just another thought to try in the future.

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I BIAB so the only sparge I do is a 2,3L mini sparge before the boil and obviously therefore also no runnings. You think the ph of that sparge water (usually use tap for that while spring water for mash and top up) could make a difference?

About the water/grist ratio... Since I'm BIABing I think that it is quite normal (correct me if I'm wrong) and shouldn't cause a problem. I.e. if that fixed my problem many or all BIAB brewers should have the same problem.

Thanks again for all the good input!

tomaso said:

Well, but do you have any source(s) that give evidence that the flavor is mainly in the husks? It seems a bit far-fetched to me because if it really had such an impact then it would seem to me that it should feature prominently in most of the 'how to brew' literature but in the books/articles I've read so far there's no mention of it.
But as I said, it does seem logical in a way so I definitely want to give it a try!

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I don't have anything that talks about it. Obviously the husk isn't the only thing to give the flavor, but then again, there is dehusked roasted malt, in order to give color, but not much of the bitter flavor. The theory that the malt flavor comes from unfermented sugars just doesn't quite hold true in my book. I had a pale ale that I made for a friend's wedding that got all the way down to 1.006! This was one of the best malt flavors I've ever had in a pale ale, but it wasn't sweet. That's even comparing to ones that I've had stay up at 1.018.

tomaso said:

I BIAB so the only sparge I do is a 2,3L mini sparge before the boil and obviously therefore also no runnings. You think the ph of that sparge water (usually use tap for that while spring water for mash and top up) could make a difference?

About the water/grist ratio... Since I'm BIABing I think that it is quite normal (correct me if I'm wrong) and shouldn't cause a problem. I.e. if that fixed my problem many or all BIAB brewers should have the same problem.

Thanks again for all the good input!

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I BIAB as well. I do a batch sparge, but my process is quite ghetto, so the runnings from the batch sparge are my "top-up water."

What do you mean by mini sparge? A mini batch sparge, or a mini fly sparge? I think that if your temps are too high (I believe over 175F), and your pH is too high (above 5.8) then you will begin to extract tannins. It does take a combo of the two, though. So with a typical fly sparge they usually start with sparge water at 5.5 in order to ensure that it won't get above 5.8 by the end of the sparge. I believe with batch sparging, it should have the same effect, just quicker, so you would still wanna start around 5.5. In such a small batch size, I could imagine that if those last 2.3L is above 5.8 (and your sparge temp is high), then you would be extracting enough tannins for it to be noticeable. The flavor that comes from tannins is called astringency in English. It's basically if you can imagine that feeling that almost makes your mouth feel like it got dried up with a cloth after a drink of wine or some over-steeped teas, that's astringency. IF this was your problem, I could really see it taking away some of the malt flavor because of the way the tannins react with your tongue and therefore your tastebuds.

As far as the water/grist ratio, I won't say that the BIABers out there aren't trying tons and tons of styles, but I only know of a few that are really shooting for the delicate malt-forward german beer styles like you are. One of them is Gavin C, and he has a really good thread on the subject.

Also, just another random thought:

Even though you said you know the mineral content of your spring water, you did say that when putting in those numbers that the estimated pH is off. AKA, the numbers you're inputting are wrong, which could mean the mineral content of the spring water is varying from season to season. I would start with Reverse Osmosis water, and build up from there. I use tap water that comes flowing down from the Norwegian mountains... It's basically RO water, and I add no minerals to it right now, and I'm getting plenty of malt flavor from my beers. I even just finished off an oktoberfest ale, and it was a really good, almost amber-lager tasting beer. My wife hates lagers, and she wouldn't drink it cause it tasted too much like a lager!

joshesmusica said:

I don't have anything that talks about it. Obviously the husk isn't the only thing to give the flavor, but then again, there is dehusked roasted malt, in order to give color, but not much of the bitter flavor. The theory that the malt flavor comes from unfermented sugars just doesn't quite hold true in my book. I had a pale ale that I made for a friend's wedding that got all the way down to 1.006! This was one of the best malt flavors I've ever had in a pale ale, but it wasn't sweet. That's even comparing to ones that I've had stay up at 1.018.



I BIAB as well. I do a batch sparge, but my process is quite ghetto, so the runnings from the batch sparge are my "top-up water."

What do you mean by mini sparge? A mini batch sparge, or a mini fly sparge? I think that if your temps are too high (I believe over 175F), and your pH is too high (above 5.8) then you will begin to extract tannins. It does take a combo of the two, though. So with a typical fly sparge they usually start with sparge water at 5.5 in order to ensure that it won't get above 5.8 by the end of the sparge. I believe with batch sparging, it should have the same effect, just quicker, so you would still wanna start around 5.5. In such a small batch size, I could imagine that if those last 2.3L is above 5.8 (and your sparge temp is high), then you would be extracting enough tannins for it to be noticeable. The flavor that comes from tannins is called astringency in English. It's basically if you can imagine that feeling that almost makes your mouth feel like it got dried up with a cloth after a drink of wine or some over-steeped teas, that's astringency. IF this was your problem, I could really see it taking away some of the malt flavor because of the way the tannins react with your tongue and therefore your tastebuds.

As far as the water/grist ratio, I won't say that the BIABers out there aren't trying tons and tons of styles, but I only know of a few that are really shooting for the delicate malt-forward german beer styles like you are. One of them is Gavin C, and he has a really good thread on the subject.

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The taste that's obscuring the malt flavor and is bothering me is pretty sure not astringent so no problem there I think.

What's that link you're referring to?

joshesmusica said:

Also, just another random thought:

Even though you said you know the mineral content of your spring water, you did say that when putting in those numbers that the estimated pH is off. AKA, the numbers you're inputting are wrong, which could mean the mineral content of the spring water is varying from season to season. I would start with Reverse Osmosis water, and build up from there. I use tap water that comes flowing down from the Norwegian mountains... It's basically RO water, and I add no minerals to it right now, and I'm getting plenty of malt flavor from my beers. I even just finished off an oktoberfest ale, and it was a really good, almost amber-lager tasting beer. My wife hates lagers, and she wouldn't drink it cause it tasted too much like a lager!

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Actually, the second batch of this octoberfast ale brewed without any lactic acid addition was spot on for the expected PH from EZ water (And another one I brewed yesterday as well); It seems that my lactic additions don't turn out right, i.e. maybe are too strong.... which is curious because having tried that beer again yesterday I thought that flavour might actually be sour... maybe from the lactic acid...

And! as well... the second, small octoberfast batch that I fermented at a much lower temp, even though at bottling it had a similar taste, I cracked open the first bottle yesterday after 10days in bottle (2 weeks fermenting) and indeed that bothering taste seems to be gone (or almost gone; have to do another side by side). It is still not as malty as I imagine it should be but it's a nice and round beer.

Now I get the feeling that this isn't due to the lower ferm temperature but somehow I'm on the lactic acid track now... but the thing is I only added 0,8ml (i.e. 0,8g) of lactic acid to 12L of mash water for a batch of 15L so it just doesn' seem like this could be enough to be noticable, even if it were 100% lactic acid (don't know if that even exists).

So I'll keep experimenting with these two issues, i.e. the ferm temp (also using different yeast for that beer) and the lactic acid (maybe try to use acidulated malt or phosphoric instead) and also I'm still intrigued by your suggestion about the lower mash efficiency. Yesterday actually I brewed a milk stout and lowered my efficiency by 10% (to 73%) with a coarser crush. HAppily bubbling away....

So maybe I'll make another small batch of that octoberfast ale with 1.) no lactic acid addition, 2.) a different yeast strain, 3.) and lower mash efficiency

I'll report back on any discoveries or experiments.
Thanks again!

well tomaso, I won't go into details about my process but let's say that I've made tons of research since 2013 on how to get malty brews and I've tried many many things except measuring my mash ph. I do use brun' water and had my tap water analyzed but my last red ale turned out super thin and dull. On my next batch, I'll use RO water, add minerals and check from there. Let me know if you ever figure out something !

btw, someone mentioned a thing about proper sparge water ph. Is that really important ? My tap water ph is around 8...how do you correct sparge water ph ?

joshesmusica said:

3) Less efficiency. There are plenty of people trying to get the most out of their grains, but at some points, this will actually start to take away from the flavor you're getting from them. Think of it this way: If you get say 85% efficiency, then you have 5 kilos of grains in order to reach an OG of 1.061. Now let's say that you get instead, 60% efficiency, then all of a sudden you need 7 kilos in order to get 1.060 OG! Those two extra kilos will add a ton more flavor! Most people think that the flavor comes from the husks anyways, and not necessarily from the starches/sugars.

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Has anyone ever done an exbeeriment on this, such as screening out the husks and replacing with rice hulls?

Seems like it would be an effective way to test that. I'm still too new at this to trust my process enough to do it, but it wouldn't be hard, two identical grain bills, screen the husks out of one, replace with a like amount of rice hulls, then brew 'em!