I Have Confused myself: Sauermalz or RO water?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

mhermetz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2009
Messages
346
Reaction score
10
Location
Oshawa, Ontario
So after diving further into water chemistry I believe I've been severely screwing up my lighter beers. I'm just looking for some clarification and maybe some insight as to why things are the way they are. I'll use my Munich Helles as a example.

Here are my water adjustments and the profile I've been using up until now:

AcidMaltversion.jpg


When I first read into changing my water chem I think I focused way to heavily on the Ph rather then the whole picture. As you can see in the above example all I did was mess with the CL:SO ratio and PH (using strictly Sauermalz). This then leads to the Residual Alkalinity of an astounding -289. I'm positive this is bad because Palmer writes that anything from -50 to 0 is good for beers such as a Helles. Would this explain the slight harsh/somewhat twangy-ness I taste in the beer?


So after seeing all these "possible" mistakes I've reworked my alterations to the one below:

ROversion.jpg


I'm now mainly using RO water to reduce the 105 Bicarbonate level my water contains. (I came up with that number using Palmers "divide by 50 and ,multiply by 61" rule used when converting Total Alkalinity to Bicarbonate). While the ph using this method is slightly higher I'm able to zone in on my residual alkalinity.

So I guess my overall question is... am I still out to lunch?
 
The harshness you experienced was probably caused by sulfate which has no place in delicate continental lagers. It just ruins noble hops. Forget that you ever heard about chloride/sulfate ratio. While it may have some application in British brewing the proper ratio on the continent is infinite - no sulfate if possible.

With the water you have a dilution of 3 + 1 (RO + tap) should get the alkalinity down low enough but will also, of course reduce calcium to a quarter of its original level. A couple of grams of calcium chloride per 5 gallons should take care of that problem. Now use 2-3% sauermalz and you should be pretty close on mash pH. If at all possible check with a pH meter.
 
Thank man. Seems I've completely missed the point of Sulfate in beer.

Read over Palmers water section again, specifically the paragraph on Sulfate, and it seems like it's only appropriate when brewing bitter beers like maybe an IPA? Personally I only have one IPA recipe I use, compared to about 20 others which are all malt flavour forward. You think it would be safe to assume I should axe as much sulfate as I can out of my beers, except for the IPA?
 
You think it would be safe to assume I should axe as much sulfate as I can out of my beers, except for the IPA?

I suggest that this is what people should do the first time they brew anything, including the IPA. Then, in subsequent brewings of that same beer they should add some in and take careful tasting notes. The goal is to see if you like sulfate or not. It is quite possible that you might like your IPA better with no or less sulfate. It won't be as authentic but you might like it better.

Note that Colin Kaminsky has posted on another site that he experiments with sulfate by adding gypsum to the finished beer at tastings. I don't know how well that works but apparently it does for him.
 
So based on the idea of eliminating sulfate, is this an acceptable addition to my water?

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 11
Mg: 2
Na: 5
Cl: 6
SO4: 15
CaCO3: 25

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 9.8 / 8.3
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 28.24
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 5
Roasted Grain: 0.25
Beer Color (SRM): 14.3

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1 / 0.846938776
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 18 / 18
Mg: 2 / 2
Na: 5 / 5
Cl: 19 / 19
SO4: 15 / 15
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.27 / 1.27

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 25
RA: 11
Estimated pH (room temp): 5.30


OR, is this a better attemp?

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 11
Mg: 2
Na: 5
Cl: 6
SO4: 15
CaCO3: 25

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 9.8 / 8.3
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 28.24
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 5
Roasted Grain: 0.25
Beer Color (SRM): 14.3

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 4 / 3.387755102
MgSO4: 3 / 2.540816327
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 40 / 40
Mg: 10 / 10
Na: 5 / 5
Cl: 58 / 58
SO4: 47 / 47
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.25 / 1.25

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 25
RA: -9
Estimated pH (room temp): 5.28


I just noticed I am using a down-rev version where the recommended pH is 5.2-5.4 and I have been testing to get the pH lower. This would indicate that my pH is too low for either case, right?
 
Either of those should be fine. One might work better for one type of beer and the other for another. The pH estimates are probably not realistic. You will probably have to add some sauermalz. Be guided by your meter.
 
Either of those should be fine. One might work better for one type of beer and the other for another. The pH estimates are probably not realistic. You will probably have to add some sauermalz. Be guided by your meter.

I found that to be true in the past few (5) batches I have used the pH meter. Most often the pH is higher than the ez calc said it would be. I like that because higher pH is easier to correct than lower. In the last batch I brewed using the calculator, I assumed my pH was going to be higher and added a little more lactic acid than I was otherwise advised by the EZ calculator. Gave me a better pH right away, involving much less correction (actually none as the actual pH was just over 5.4).

I haven't yet used sauermalz, only lactic acid. Is it just the process of adding the sauermalz to the grainbill?
 
Same idea - it is lactic acid on the sauermalz that does the job. The differences are
1. Sauermalz is easier to measure out (IMO).
2. The addition calculation is one even I can remember: 1 % of grist per 0.1 pH drop
3. There is a lag. pH will seem to be alarmingly low right after dough-in but will climb to its proper value over 15 minutes or so.
4. The malt itself adds subtle complexity to lagers

WRT Item 4: this may not be suitable for ales. I don't do ales (except Kölsch where it is suitable) and so don't really know about this. When I do brew a British style ale I use hydrochloric acid instead as that's more traditional.
 
Nice.

I have kids, so I raided their medicine cabinet for the measurement device. It measures out 1-8 mL in 1/4-mL graduations, and I use even amounts of lactic acid to make things easier.

I plan on using sauermalz next brew day. So if I want to go from 5.7 pH (calculated) to 5.4, my sauermalz would be 3% of my total grain bill? If my grain bill is 26#, my sauermalz would be just over 3/4#, right?

So by going with 1# even of sauermalz, I may take my pH further down than what I want? Guess some more beer needs to be brewed for some trials with sauermalz....:mug:
 
1# would be 1/(26 + 1) = 3.7% so, if the rule of thumb applied in this particular case you would be down 0.37 pH

I know it's tough but if you want good beer you have to brew and drink a lot of it.
 
ajdelange,

I am brewing a Imperial IPA soon and have been trying to wrap my head around all of this chemistry stuff without letting it carry me too far away (Calgon?). Using the EZ water calculator, I came up with two choices again. One tries to minimize the Sulfate concentration, the other tries to put the chemistry all in the "Palmer's Recommended ranges". Is one going to be better than the other for me? My desire is not to have so much of the bitterness on the tongue flavor, but let a little of the malt profile show through, as well as the citrus-ness of the hops. Since the first try doesn't hit Palmers Ranges, will I get what I am looking for from one or the other? I would appreciate your input.
Thanks alot!


Minimizing sulphate try #1:
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 11
Mg: 2
Na: 5
Cl: 6
SO4: 15
CaCO3: 25

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 9.8 / 6.8
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 30.125
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 4
Roasted Grain: 0.125
Beer Color (SRM): 9.6

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 2.5 / 1.734693878
MgSO4: 3 / 2.081632653
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 29 / 29
Mg: 10 / 10
Na: 5 / 5
Cl: 39 / 39
SO4: 47 / 47
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.83 / 0.83

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 25
RA: -2
Estimated pH (room temp): 5.40

Just hitting the Palmer Ranges try #2:
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 11
Mg: 2
Na: 5
Cl: 6
SO4: 15
CaCO3: 25

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 9.8 / 6.8
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 30.125
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 4
Roasted Grain: 0.125
Beer Color (SRM): 9.6

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 1.5 / 1.040816327
CaCl2: 4 / 2.775510204
MgSO4: 3 / 2.081632653
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 50 / 50
Mg: 10 / 10
Na: 5 / 5
Cl: 58 / 58
SO4: 69 / 69
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.84 / 0.84

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 25
RA: -16
Estimated pH (room temp): 5.38
 
Since you have such soft water the approach that seems most sensible would be to start out by supplementing the calcium with calcium chloride to the extent of perhaps 3 grams per five gallons and seeing how that beer turns out. On the next attempt replace half the calcium chloride with gypsum and see if that turns out better. Build on what you learn tweaking the gypsum and calcium chloride until you get the taste you like. You will need some sauermalz to set the mash pH properly. A couple of percent should do.

Looking back over this I realize it is essentially what it says in the Primer so you might want to re-read that.

Either of your proposed water profiles should make a decent beer (with some sauermalz or other acid). Which makes the better beer is really up to you to decide.
 
Don't overthink it too much. Your first goal should be to get calcium over 50ppm in the wort for the yeast so it will flocculate properly. In this beer you would want to use CaCl2. With that fixed, your second goal is to get the mash pH in the proper range of 5.2-5.6 for proper conversion and to ensure the yeast will reach the proper finished pH of 4.5 in the fermented beer. You use acid for that.

As I understand it unless your calcium and magnesium are really high, there is little practical difference between adding acid to neutralize alkalinity versus using RO, as most bicarbonates neutralized by acid will drop out during the boil (assuming you don't have excessive levels of calcium)* -- only the "permanent" hardness (calcium carbonate) (or what some call "residual alkalinity" -- same thing -- that term implying what is left after the boil) will remain. The only times you would need to use RO would be if you wanted to reduce the amount of calcium, sodium, chloride, or sulfates already present in the water, or to reduce your permanent hardness that will not drop out during the boil. In your case, calcium is already low, and so are the other ions, so diluting with RO seems counter-productive due to it dropping the calcium too low for the yeast. But, if you want to make a Bo Pils, you will need to drop the residual alkalinity by cutting with RO, since soft water is an essence of the style, and at the required 50ppm calcium your yeast need would result in pushing permanent hardness too high. In most beer styles (I would say, ALL other beer styles, really) it just won't matter too much as long as you hit the proper mash pH.

Astringency can result if your sparge water has a pH of over 6. At room temp you should adjust your sparge water to a pH of 5.7 with acid, which will drop to match the proper mash pH of 5.4 once heated to sparge temps. Once the first runnings are drained off the mash has very little pH buffering capacity left, and your water has plenty of alkalinity to drive the pH of the mash over 6 during sparge if not treated with acid. If you want to stick with saurmalz only, use RO for sparging, since it has no pH buffering ability due to almost all the minerals and bicarbonate being stripped out.

* This is one of many good reasons not to add too many salts, but to use acid as the primary pH adjustment instead.
 
Don't overthink it too much. Your first goal should be to get calcium over 50ppm in the wort for the yeast so it will flocculate properly. In this beer you would want to use CaCl2. With that fixed, your second goal is to get the mash pH in the proper range of 5.2-5.6 for proper conversion and to ensure the yeast will reach the proper finished pH of 4.5 in the fermented beer. You use acid for that.

It is much more important to have the pH in the correct range than arrive at some arbitrary level of calcium. Calcium is a good thing. Don't misinterpret my comment to mean it isn't and in some beers high calcium levels are fine. But many excellent beers are brewed at calcium levels well below 50 ppm.

As I understand it unless your calcium and magnesium are really high, there is little practical difference between adding acid to neutralize alkalinity versus using RO, as most bicarbonates neutralized by acid will drop out during the boil

There is a great deal of difference. For example, if you have you have alkalinity of 100 and hardness of 100 and nothing else in a water sample and dilute 10:1 with RO you would have alkalinity of 10 and hardness of 10 and nothing else (assuming the RO is ion free). If, OTOH, you neutralized the alkalinity with sulfuric acid you would have 2 mEq/L sulfate (98 mg/L) and 100 ppm hardness. Very different results. When neutralizing alkalinity with acid an equivalent amount of the anion of the acid remains.

HCO3- + HAc ---> CO2 + Ac- + CO2

only the "permanent" hardness (calcium carbonate) (or what some call "residual alkalinity" -- same thing -- that term implying what is left after the boil) will remain.

Neither temporary or permanent hardness are changed by acid addition:

2Ca++ + 2HCO3- + SO4-- + 2HAc --> Ca++ + 2CO2 + 2H2O + 2Ac- + SO4--

RA and permanent hardness are not the same thing. The permanent hardness is the hardness in excess of the alkalinity. IOW if the hardness is 100 ppm as CaCO3 and the alkalinity is 80 ppm as CaCO3 the permanent hardness is 80. It is the amount of hardness paired with anions other than bicarbonate. RA = alk - (Ca_hardness + Mg_hardness/2)/3.5. It is the amount of alkalinity that will not be neutralized by hydrogen ions released by the calcium/magnesium/phosphate reaction of the mash tun.

The only times you would need to use RO would be ....

RO water is used in a variety of ways. It is clearly simple to start with RO water and dump the appropriate salts into it for every brew because you are completely in control of the situation if you do that. As long as you don't want bicarbonate in the water (and there is little reason to unless you are striving for the ultimate in authenticity) this is quite simple and any of the spreadsheets can be used. If you do want bicarbonate then things become more complicated and none of the popular spreadsheets model the chemistry properly.

Another approach to treat RO/DI water like any other salt, acid or base and calculate the amounts of each required to match a desired ion profile as closely as possible. This takes a spreadsheet capable of properly accounting for the pH of the source and target waters. None of the popular ones are capable of doing this. I can get a pretty good approximation of Plzen by blending 10% of my well water with RO water, for example.

Astringency can result if your sparge water has a pH of over 6. At room temp you should adjust your sparge water to a pH of 5.7 with acid, which will drop to match the proper mash pH of 5.4 once heated to sparge temps.

The amount of drop depends on the particulars. If I take a very hard alkaline water and acidify it to pH 5.7 at 20 °C with phosphoric acid and then raise the temperature to 70°C the pH only shifts by 0.1 unit. If the water is soft, the shift is a bit less. If I do the acidification with a strong acid there is no appreciable shift with temperature.

( Once the first runnings are drained off the mash has very little pH buffering capacity left, and your water has plenty of alkalinity to drive the pH of the mash over 6 during sparge if not treated with acid. If you want to stick with saurmalz only, use RO for sparging, since it has no pH buffering ability due to almost all the minerals and bicarbonate being stripped out.

This is a convoluted way of saying "don't sparge with alkaline water" and that's good advice.

Treatment of sparge water is something that in general does not need to be done. You aren't going to mash with alkaline water and so, unless there are special circumstances, the water you mash with is suitable for sparging. I don't know why homebrewers seem to think they need to treat mash and sparge water separately. Just sparge with water you have treated in the same way as the water you mash with and try to keep the pH of the runoff from going over 6 i.e. terminate collection as pH approaches 6. At this point it is really diminishing returns on the extract. If you have conducted the sparge properly your running should be aroung 4 °P at that point. A liter of 4 °P wort contains only 40 grams of extract.

Even if you go over 6 and extract some of the dreaded polyphenols these will complex with protein and settle out during conditioning. You may have to wait a little longer for your beer to be ready to drink but it's not the end of the world.
 
Thanks to everybody for replies.

Question? Should I be treating my sparge water instead of treating the mash? I have been mashing in with untreated (tap) water and then adding my salt additions. ajdelange, I might have misinterpreted your point about:
Just sparge with the water you brew with and try to keep the pH of the runoff from going over 6 i.e. terminate collection as pH approaches 6.

I understand about stopping the sparge as the pH approaches 6. It was the first part. Just sparge with the water you brew with at first thought means don't worry about it, just use the same water. If the mash was adjusted correctly, and the water isn't alkaline, it should be good for almost any situation. Did I interpret correctly?
 
Even if you go over 6 and extract some of the dreaded polyphenols these will complex with protein and settle out during conditioning. You may have to wait a little longer for your beer to be ready to drink but it's not the end of the world.

Question: if this is the case -- and if the polyphenols settle out -- why bother treating sparge at all? Why not simply target mash pH, sparge with normal water, and then take the sparge issue entirely out of the equation?

(I don't mean to be snide -- I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious.) I'm hearing mixed advice on sparge water treatment. I agree that it's ideal to simply treat all the sparge water as if its both mash and sparge water and be done with it -- but I've brewed on systems where it's not possible to gather together that much water at once (10+ gallons, in some cases more).

I know, AJ, you've suggested a way around this -- measuring out the sparge with a stick and then using a proportional amount of treatment from a graduated cylinder (or another container) based on the stick measurement, but I'm looking to simplify. Plus, I'm curious about sparge treatment in general -- because it seems that many of us are zeroing on mash-specific pH issues nicely, but then leaving the sparge treatment as the last thing to zero in on.

So, I guess my question is this: assuming I do have my mash pH exactly where I want it. And by the time I've mashed (60+ minutes) I've got enough sparge water heated up and ready to go. (I've got a 15 gallon Blichman with a 5500 watt heater but the element is around the 5 gallon mark -- so I usually mash with the necessary water then refill for the sparge).

Can I just treat the 11+ gallons of sparge with acid (or even 5.2 buffer) to get the sparge in the proper pH range if I've got my mash at (a) the proper pH and with (b) the proper salt balance? I fly sparge for 45 minutes or so. I mean, I've got 11 gallons heated, but I'll only use a fraction of that for the sparge. The rest I use for my HERMS temp control and then cleaning the kettles and pumps when the session is over.
 
In most cases a brewery does not treat the sparge water separately from the mash water. It mashes and sparges with the water it has. If it does treat the water it usually treats the mash and sparge water the same i.e. if it decarbonates one it decarbonates the other. If it adds acid to one it adds acid to the other though there is, of course, no reason why one has to do this. It is, of course, easiest to just prepare one volume of water for the whole brew day (and even easier on brew day if it can be done the night before) but this requires something that will hold enough water for the whole process.

If you don't have a vessel big enough to hold the whole volume you can use this trick.

1. Determine the volume of your container when full
2 Measure the depth of the water when full
3. Calculate the salt addtions required to treat a full volume.
4. Measure out those salts and dissolve in full volume
5. Measure out again and dissolve in a number of mL of water which corresponds to the full depth. For example, my HLT is 35 inches deep when full so I dissolve the second set of salts in 35 mL of water.
6. As you top off the tank in the course of brewing add salt solution in proportion to the number of inches of water you are adding. In my example if I wish to top up 12 inches of water I add 12 cc of the salt solution

I changed the wording in #14 to be more clear on mash/sparge issue.
 
OK, now I think I confused myself again reading this. The water calculator i use says to add the sparge additions to the boil, which I have been doing with somewhat good results. Granted, I shamefully have not taken a pH reading of the boil prior to boil, but the beer has improved.

But, I have a scenario on brew day that I use that could be making that harder for me to understand. I use my HLT to heat the mash water in the morning. At the same time I use my BK to heat sparge water, thus reducing the amount of time to make up the difference between using water for the mash and having to have sparge water at 168°F.

So, in an effort to determine if I am not confused, could I simply start with enough mash water and sparge water divided between the two kettles and treat those volumes (say 8 gallons and 8 gallons) the same? That way, once I accomplished dough-in, when I transfer the additional water for sparging, it is already treated correctly and I would therefore not have to add anything to the boil? This may be more difficult than it seems, especially if my grain bill fluctuates. Meaning sometimes my mash water is 10 gallons and my sparge water is 6. Can I simply make up a known volume of treated hot water (lets say 32 ounces) and then treat each vessel (10 gal & 6 Gal in this example) with an appropriate ratio 20:12 of the pre-treated (mixed with salts/acid)water?
 
Question: if this is the case -- and if the polyphenols settle out -- why bother treating sparge at all? Why not simply target mash pH, sparge with normal water, and then take the sparge issue entirely out of the equation?

While it's true that getting a bit of phenol into your beer isn't a disaster if you are willing to invest the extra lagering time you may not be in a position to do this. A commercial operation certainly isn't and so would want to limit phenol extraction. And it's better to not have a problem than rely on some workaround to best it. Maybe once because you were unaware but if you are aware that phenols are being extracted then you should try to do something about it rather than rely on lagering to "fix" it.

As is the case in most things I advocate knowing where you are with respect to this problem and that means making pH readings and comparing to extract content of the runoff. If you are not going over 6 before your extract gets too low then you don't have a problem and don't need to treat sparge water. If it does go over 6 then you do.

(I don't mean to be snide -- I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious.) I'm hearing mixed advice on sparge water treatment. I agree that it's ideal to simply treat all the sparge water as if its both mash and sparge water and be done with it -- but I've brewed on systems where it's not possible to gather together that much water at once (10+ gallons, in some cases more).

I know, AJ, you've suggested a way around this -- measuring out the sparge with a stick and then using a proportional amount of treatment from a graduated cylinder (or another container) based on the stick measurement, but I'm looking to simplify.

You and I posted at the same time so I mentioned the inches thing again in my last post. That is a workable solution - works very smoothly for me.


Plus, I'm curious about sparge treatment in general -- because it seems that many of us are zeroing on mash-specific pH issues nicely, but then leaving the sparge treatment as the last thing to zero in on.

You should check runoff pH. After you've done that enough times you will know that you either need to take steps or not to protect yourself from phenol extraction and you will not need to continue checks in the future. Your knowledge will come from both the pH measurements and whether you taste phenolic astringency in your beers or not.


So, I guess my question is this: assuming I do have my mash pH exactly where I want it. And by the time I've mashed (60+ minutes) I've got enough sparge water heated up and ready to go. (I've got a 15 gallon Blichman with a 5500 watt heater but the element is around the 5 gallon mark -- so I usually mash with the necessary water then refill for the sparge).

Can I just treat the 11+ gallons of sparge with acid (or even 5.2 buffer) to get the sparge in the proper pH range if I've got my mash at (a) the proper pH and with (b) the proper salt balance? I fly sparge for 45 minutes or so. I mean, I've got 11 gallons heated, but I'll only use a fraction of that for the sparge. The rest I use for my HERMS temp control and then cleaning the kettles and pumps when the session is over.

I'd just top off and go and see what happens. If you are collecting 8°P wort and the pH of the runoff is 5.9 then you have a problem (and an unusual one at that). If you don't get to pH 5.9 until the runoff is down to 4 °P I wouldn't worry about it unless you want that last bit of extract. If you do I'd add a little acid to the HLT at that point. Just enough to get the pH down to 5.9 is enough.

I would not use the 5.2 product for this or any other application in brewing. If you want to control sparge pH with phosphate just use phosphoric acid.
 
Can I simply make up a known volume of treated hot water (lets say 32 ounces) and then treat each vessel (10 gal & 6 Gal in this example) with an appropriate ratio 20:12 of the pre-treated (mixed with salts/acid)water?

Yes. In this case you have a total of 16 gal of water and your premix is 32 Oz i.e. 2 Oz per gallon. Dissolve all the salts in the 32 Oz and add 16 Oz of that solution to each vessel if they contain 8 gal apiece or 20 oz to the one containing 10 gal and 12 Oz to the other containing 6 gal.
 
You should check runoff pH. After you've done that enough times you will know that you either need to take steps or not to protect yourself from phenol extraction and you will not need to continue checks in the future.

So to clarify (for my self -- just to make sure I'm understanding this): the the pH that matters is not the actual sparge water (which would presumably be at the same pH as whatever water you're using -- tap, filtered tap, RO, or whatever).

What matters is the *runoff pH* of the runoff leaving the MLT and before entering the BK? The pH of the this runoff will be gradually rising as the sparge progresses? The goal is keep this < pH 6.0 and > gravity 1.005.
 
So to clarify (for my self -- just to make sure I'm understanding this): the the pH that matters is not the actual sparge water (which would presumably be at the same pH as whatever water you're using -- tap, filtered tap, RO, or whatever).

Yes.

What matters is the *runoff pH* of the runoff leaving the MLT and before entering the BK? The pH of the this runoff will be gradually rising as the sparge progresses? The goal is keep this < pH 6.0 and > gravity 1.005.

Yes. But if I hit 6 at 3 °P (1.012) I'd just stop collecting at that point. At that level you aren't throwing much extract away.
 
It is much more important to have the pH in the correct range than arrive at some arbitrary level of calcium. Calcium is a good thing. Don't misinterpret my comment to mean it isn't and in some beers high calcium levels are fine. But many excellent beers are brewed at calcium levels well below 50 ppm.

Everything I have read has suggested you get to 50ppm in the mash to help with protein break and proper enzymatic function in the mash tun. Low levels of calcium can cause slower enzymatic function, which is precisely why a Bo Pils needs a long step or decoction mash to fully convert and prevent chill haze. Whether you end up at 50ppm in the finished beer is a different issue. I add a very small amount of salts to the mash get over 50ppm calcium since my water is 46ppm. 25ppm of calcium is probably sufficient for yeast flocculation, but I would not want to brew with water under 25ppm calcium because the yeast will not flocculate properly. Jamil and White recommend 50ppm calcium for the yeast so I aim for 50ppm in the finished beer.

There is a great deal of difference. ... When neutralizing alkalinity with acid an equivalent amount of the anion of the acid remains:

HCO3- + HAc ---> CO2 + Ac- + CO2

Very good point. I use lactic or phosphoric acid, because both of the anions have very little flavor contribution to the finished beer. Using other acids (eg sulfuric) would change the water profile in a way that would impact flavor and would need consideration, since the acid is also an implicit salt addition. The vast majority of pro brewers I know use phosphoric acid for pH adjustment because it is tasteless, and do very little else aside from filtering the water. Myself, I use lactic acid in German beer styles since it is closer to saurmalz, and I use phosphoric acid in all other beer styles.

Neither temporary or permanent hardness are changed by acid addition:

Correct; this is why I noted it is undesirable to have too much calcium in your water profile, since it will result in more CaCO3 in the finished beer, which gives a chalky, mineral flavor that an experienced beer judge can immediately pick up on, and others will find makes the beer lifeless and uninteresting. If you want sulfate, it's better to use MgSO4 since it will result in less alkalinity in the finished beer, but even then you don't want to overdo it since the coefficient is half that of calcium. For chloride ions, I often add table salt, since my water is very low in sodium.

I am only concerned with permanent hardness of my water; temporary hardness should be removed during the boil (or decoction), right? This is essentially what "permanent" hardness vs temporary means, the permanent hardness is CaCO3 (chalk) that will remain even if you boil the water, whereas the temporary hardness will precipitate out of solution during the boil. You can only reduce the permanent hardness by diluting with RO or by using slaked lime to precipitate out carbonate as CaCO3 in the liquor tank (my understanding is that slaked lime additions must be done before the mash where phosphates are present, and the settling takes awhile, which is why I just dilute with RO if I want less total hardness).

I like your comment that you should think of RO as a negative salt addition... this is exactly how I use it. I also have sent my RO water to Ward Labs, and determined the rejection rate of the RO membrane at my local store is 92%. Since 8% of the minerals of my water profile remain in the RO, it's perfectly suitable for a Bo Pils or a American Light Lager with only a little bit of acid to adjust mash pH. I use acid and a small amount of calcium chloride or gypsum in my tap water for every other beer style I brew, since light lager is (in my experience) the only beer style where total hardness seems to impact the beer flavor in a noticeable way.

This is a convoluted way of saying "don't sparge with alkaline water" and that's good advice.

Yep. :)

Treatment of sparge water is something that in general does not need to be done. You aren't going to mash with alkaline water and so, unless there are special circumstances, the water you mash with is suitable for sparging. I don't know why homebrewers seem to think they need to treat mash and sparge water separately.

Exactly; you don't. However I don't need to add much calcium to my water, since I have 46ppm calcium, so I use a small amount of a calcium salt (1tsp or less per 5 gal) in the mash plus acid, and then just add acid to the sparge water to arrive at my desired water profile in the resulting wort.

It's worth noting many pro breweries I have been to have a system that filters the water to remove chloramine, and adds acid to the water as it comes into the HLT and CLT (CLT = cold liquor tank) at a rate to result in a pH of about 5.7. So, all of the water is already treated to neutralize the alkalinity for proper mash pH and sparge. In essence they end up doing exactly what I do, which is add just a tiny amount of salts to the mash or kettle to adjust the water profile.

As Gordon Strong says it's more important to be consistent in your water treatment, than to try to target a particular profile, since it just adds another variable that is difficult to control. If you start with the same water adjustments for each brew, you can control other variables such as hopping and specialty malts to adjust the flavor of the beer, rather than adding a more difficult and inconsistent variable by screwing with the water too much.

Even if you go over 6 and extract some of the dreaded polyphenols these will complex with protein and settle out during conditioning. You may have to wait a little longer for your beer to be ready to drink but it's not the end of the world.

While I agree in principle, my experience as a beer judge is that this is not true. Most brewers bottle their beer too soon after brewing for polyphenols to settle out, and they also do not use positively charged finings which will help precipitate out polyphenols (silicon dioxide, kieselsol, PolyClar). As a result, astringency from oversparging or from mini-mash with alkaline water is the #1 off flavor I see in beers. The #2 off flavor is chlorophenol, which results from chloramine in the brewing water that was not removed, either from not filtering the water, or not using enough (or any) Campden to volatilize the chlorine and drive it off prior to malt contact.
 
You should check runoff pH. After you've done that enough times you will know that you either need to take steps or not to protect yourself from phenol extraction and you will not need to continue checks in the future. Your knowledge will come from both the pH measurements and whether you taste phenolic astringency in your beers or not.

Agreed... I don't worry about final gravity unless I'm doing a beer under 1.050, in which case I will sparge until I reach my desired post-boil gravity in the kettle, and top up with RO water to reach my pre-boil volume. My final runnings pH is typically 5.6 to 5.8, so I know my water treatment is working correctly. For really small beers (1.040 or less) I just don't sparge at all, since it doesn't contribute much extract anyway.

I would not use the 5.2 product for this or any other application in brewing. If you want to control sparge pH with phosphate just use phosphoric acid.

+1. 5.2 stabilizer might work in the mash but it seems to be completely ineffective for sparge. I only find 5.2 stabilizer useful when I do a partial mash with RO, since I only use RO with extract beers (due to the mineral content already present in the extract from the original water the malt was mashed with) and I don't feel like measuring the pH of the mini mash to adjust it with acid. If I'm doing a mini mash dangit I'm doing it because I want to be lazy. :D
 
Correct; this is why I noted it is undesirable to have too much calcium in your water profile, since it will result in more CaCO3 in the finished beer, which gives a chalky, mineral flavor that an experienced beer judge can immediately pick up on, and others will find makes the beer lifeless and uninteresting.

Is "too much calcium" based on a flavor profile for a specific style? Or is this across the board?

Palmer gives the calcium range from 50-150 ppm. Are you saying even 50ppm is too much? (In my case, my untreated water is 35ppm calcium, 12ppm magnesium, 107ppm CaCO3. I assume this is moderately hard water?)

I've been careful with my salt additions recently -- opting for very small, 1g amounts of sulfate, for example, with 2g CaCl2 based on spreadsheet info for any given style (along with acid malt for some lighter SRMs) -- but the salt additions clearly bump up the calcium levels. I'm getting the sense now that even for the darker styles which I prefer -- ambers/browns/blacks -- my hard water is probably contributing mineral flavors that an experienced judge would pick out in an instant.)

I realize this is subjective -- if I like the finished beer, then it's good -- but I'm getting the sense that nearly any level of hardness is essentially a bad thing. The beer needs some minerals -- calcium in particular, and perhaps sulfate for a specific style -- but the *amount* needed is very, very small -- and anything more "very small" can really mess with the flavor profile.
 
I realize this is subjective -- if I like the finished beer, then it's good -- but I'm getting the sense that nearly any level of hardness is essentially a bad thing. The beer needs some minerals -- calcium in particular, and perhaps sulfate for a specific style -- but the *amount* needed is very, very small -- and anything more "very small" can really mess with the flavor profile.

Yep this is exactly what I'm saying. Excessive calcium, or especially magnesium, can stick out, as can excess sodium, or definitely sulfate. I always shoot for 50ppm calcium in the finished wort, and then adjust around that to get the right pH and balance of salts. It doesn't take much.
 
Everything I have read has suggested you get to 50ppm in the mash to help with protein break and proper enzymatic function in the mash tun. Low levels of calcium can cause slower enzymatic function, which is precisely why a Bo Pils needs a long step or decoction mash to fully convert and prevent chill haze.

Boh Pils can be made without decoction mashing with the modern highly modified malts and many people do it that way. Decoction was not, in the under modified days, required because of low calcium but because it took vigorous heat to break down the protein matrix surrounding the starch making it accessible to the enzymes. Whether one gets chill haze depends more on the conduct of a protein rest than on calcium presence though I've been told by pHD biochemist brewers that protein rests are unnecessary with modern malts.

Malt actually contains plenty of calcium on its own much of which makes it into the beer despite the release of phosphate during mashing. Additional calcium has benefits. Brighter runoff, better flocculation etc. That is the basis for the 50 ppm recommendation. But for an authentic Pils you would want it lower than that and I'm finding that lower seems to work better for other lagers too. And other delicate beers like Kölsch. .


Whether you end up at 50ppm in the finished beer is a different issue.

I generally brew with water at about 35 ppm calcium (and I go that high because I want enough calcium to precipitate oxalate in the beer). I got 44 mg/L in the beer for a Märzen, 51 mg/L for a Pils and 34 mg/L in a Kölsch. These were just the last three beers I brewed. I generally do not measure the mineral content of my beers. Note: these would be free calcium. Organically bound calcium, if any, would be extra.


I would not want to brew with water under 25ppm calcium because the yeast will not flocculate properly.
In my experience they flocculate just fine at Pilsen levels (less than 10 mg/L). I used to brew all my Pils at that level and may well go back to it.


Jamil and White recommend 50ppm calcium for the yeast so I aim for 50ppm in the finished beer.

An experiment with Vienna base malt showed that when doughed in at about 1 pound per gallon DI water the resulting "wort" had 18 mg/L Ca++ in solution just after dough in at room temperature. After 40 min in a 65°C water bath the Ca++ concentration was up to 43 mg/L. After a 22 min boil it had fallen back to 31 mg/L (i.e. decoctions remove calcium - that's why the pH drops). Would more be better? Some times yes, other times, no.




... it is undesirable to have too much calcium in your water profile, since it will result in more CaCO3 in the finished beer, which gives a chalky, mineral flavor that an experienced beer judge can immediately pick up on

There isn't going to be any calcium carbonate in beer. Carbonated to 2 volumes at a beer pH of 4.6 (typical for a lager) the carbonate content is 0.0002 mg/L. All the carbonate has been dropped in the mash tun and kettle. The chalkiness you taste is calcium bicarbonate, chloride and sulfate and is from too much calcium. Calcium, paired with any of those ions, is going to lend a mineral taste and that's why you want it very low for your most delicate beers. It appears that you can't get it below about 30 even if you mash with distilled water.

and others will find makes the beer lifeless and uninteresting.
That's a consequence of improper mash pH. A calcium laden Export or ale can have bright flavors if you have proper mash tun pH.

If you want sulfate, it's better to use MgSO4 since it will result in less alkalinity in the finished beer
Don't know about the alkalinity of the finished beer but it can't be much. If you use a titration endpoint of 4.6 clearly any beer with a pH of 4.6 or less will have 0 or negative alkalinity and it's also pretty plain that even if you use 4.3 as an endpoint the alkalinity of a 4.6 beer is going to be pretty small. In terms of alkalinity in the mash tun it's just the opposite. Using magnesium sulfate results in more residual alkalinity because magnesium has half the proton releasing power of calcium

RA = alkalinity - (Calcium_hardness + Magnesium_hardness/2)/3.5

... the coefficient is half that of calcium.
Meaning twice the un-neutralized (residual) alkalinity per mole relative to calcium.

I am only concerned with permanent hardness of my water; temporary hardness should be removed during the boil (or decoction), right?

That's why they call it temporary. Temporary hardness is precipitated in the HLT, the mash tun, decoctions, and the boil though permanent hardness is too in the latter three. Here it is precipitated as phosphate.

This is essentially what "permanent" hardness vs temporary means, the permanent hardness is CaCO3 (chalk) that will remain even if you boil the water, whereas the temporary hardness will precipitate out of solution during the boil.

Hardness refers only to the calcium and magnesium ions. Permanent hardness is hardness for which there is no bicarbonate. The idea is that if you heat water with alkalinity and the water is potable all the alkalinity will be bicarbonate and chalk will precipitate. If there is no alkalinity there is no temporary hardness - no precipitate can form.


You can only reduce the permanent hardness by diluting with RO or by using slaked lime to precipitate out carbonate as CaCO3 in the liquor tank (my understanding is that slaked lime additions must be done before the mash where phosphates are present, and the settling takes awhile, which is why I just dilute with RO if I want less total hardness).

You can't remove permanent hardness with lime. The reaction (temporary hardness) is

Ca++ + 2HCO3- + Ca++ + 2(OH-) --> 2CaCO3 + 2H2O

If you want to go after permanent hardness chemically, phosphate was the traditional way to do it i.e. water softening products such as Calgon were polyphosphates.


..Campden to volatilize the chlorine and drive it off prior to malt contact.

Campden tablets do not volatilize the chlorine in chloramine. The metabite reduces it to chloride. The remainder of the molecule get reduced to ammonium ions and the metabite gets oxidized to sulfate ions.
 
Campden tablets do not volatilize the chlorine in chloramine. The metabite reduces it to chloride. The remainder of the molecule get reduced to ammonium ions and the metabite gets oxidized to sulfate ions.

As an aside I assume this reaction occurs fairly quickly? A lot of resources say you should "let it sit overnight" but when I've used it I just toss it in the HLT (you just don't want to forget to add it, you won't dump a batch if you forget Whirlfloc...)
 
You can't remove permanent hardness with lime. The reaction (temporary hardness) is

Ca++ + 2HCO3- + Ca++ + 2(OH-) --> 2CaCO3 + 2H2O

If you want to go after permanent hardness chemically, phosphate was the traditional way to do it i.e. water softening products such as Calgon were polyphosphates.

Sorry I was mixing up hardness and alkalinity in that part of my earlier post. :eek: I meant you can remove *bicarbonates* with slaked lime to yield a less alkaline water. Phosphate will precipitate out calcium as calcium phosphate, which removes the hardness.

What happens to excess bicarbonate in the boil? My assumption is that it doesn't figure into the finished beer equation, as long as your calcium is low enough not to form calcium bicarbonate which gives the chalky flavor you mentioned. I have a hard time convincing people it's OK just to use acid in really alkaline water that has low levels of salts (like mine does) because they freak out when they see the high pH and alkalinity of my water. In my experience it doesn't matter as long as I get the right mash pH and don't overdo the salt additions, I just don't understand the chemical reason why all that bicarbonate doesn't end up mattering. In other words if the RA is 0 will I have any bicarbonate in the finished beer?

Sorry we ended up jacking the thread a bit, really this is all good stuff and should probably be merged to the sticky thread since it doesn't really go here...
 
Is "too much calcium" based on a flavor profile for a specific style? Or is this across the board?

Definitely a per style thing. Calcium is not considered one of the "stylistic" ions because of its effect on mash pH but it does have flavor consequences as well. You want it low in a Bohemian Pilsner and high in an Export, for example.
 
As an aside I assume this reaction occurs fairly quickly? A lot of resources say you should "let it sit overnight" but when I've used it I just toss it in the HLT (you just don't want to forget to add it, you won't dump a batch if you forget Whirlfloc...)

Yes, it seems to complete in seconds. Once the chlorine smell is gone (possibly to have been replaced by a sulfur dioxide smell) you are ready to brew.
 
What happens to excess bicarbonate in the boil?

As you progress through the brewing process you are continuously decreasing the pH. If you start with alkaline water (lots of bicarbonate) and heat it or lime treat it you are dropping calcium bicarbonate before you ever get to the mash tun. If you use acid to control alkalinity then the bicarbonate is converted to CO2 gas and flies off.

By the time you reach the boil you should have a wort pH of about 5.2. At pH 5.2 most carbo (92%) is in the form of carbonic acid and will have flown off. As the boil progresses the pH drops to about 5. At this pH 95% of the carbo is CO2. As the beer ferments the pH drops further. At pH 4.6 98% of the carbo is carbonic but now you let the carbonic build up. At 2.2 volumes at 5°C only 1% of the carbo is bicarbonate but you have about 6 grams of CO2 per liter and so the bicarbonate is back up to about 73 mg/L but this is bicarbonate from the yeast. The bicarbonate from the water went off as gas in the boil. If there was lots of calcium then some bicarbonate would have been precipitated as chalk in the HLT and mash tun especially if decoctions were done.


My assumption is that it doesn't figure into the finished beer equation, as long as your calcium is low enough not to form calcium bicarbonate which gives the chalky flavor you mentioned.

The bicarbonate is going to be high because of the carbonation of the beer so the way to control the "chalky" taste is to control the calcium level.


I just don't understand the chemical reason why all that bicarbonate doesn't end up mattering. In other words if the RA is 0 will I have any bicarbonate in the finished beer?

The amount of bicarbonate in the finished beer is going to be set by the CO2 level in the beer. All the bicarbonate from the water is going to have been disposed of during mashing and boiling because in the process of making beer the pH goes low enough that it converts.
 
I am just getting into this water chemistry thing. The one thing I am having a hard time grasping is the addition of acid malt to the grist. Does very soft RO water with a touch of CaCl really make you mash pH too high. I would think you would need acid malt to reduce alkalinity if you are using hard water like we have here in MN. really confused
 
I can't answer,as I to am just now zeroing in on this myself. In the past I have mixed my well water with RO water (60/40) and used the baseline from the "water primer sticky" and have gotten much better results. Now I'm looking to get better, but would rather read to better understand where it may lead before experimenting. I never had any chemistry in school, so its all geek to me.:confused: But its becoming clearer. Cheers:ban:
 
I am just getting into this water chemistry thing. The one thing I am having a hard time grasping is the addition of acid malt to the grist. Does very soft RO water with a touch of CaCl really make you mash pH too high. I would think you would need acid malt to reduce alkalinity if you are using hard water like we have here in MN. really confused

Calcium reacts with inorganic phosphate (mostly the monobasic form at mash pH) released from the malt to produce hydroxyl apatite (precipitates) and hydrogen ions (acid)

6H2PO4- + 10Ca++ +2H2O ---> Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2 + 14H+

Lactic acid (the acid that makes sauermalz sour) is mostly dissociated at mash pH

HLac --> H+ + Lac-

and so it is an additional source of hydrogen ions (acid). Thus calcium by itself will reduce mash pH and lactic (or other) acid by itself will reduce mash pH. But calcium alone usually does not result in sufficient acid release to lower pH adequately and this is why lactic (or other) acid is usually used even when the water is naturally hard or has been treated to increase its calcium content. Alkalinity consumes H+ ions and so undoes some of what both calcium and acid do.
 
Back
Top