RubberMaid says "NO"!

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cheezydemon3 said:
Welcome to the club. My well meaning thread warning of lead exposure from garden hoses got a **** storm of "I use a garden hose and my beer tastes fine" as well as an assertion from a nasa scientist that "I drank from the hose, and I am a smart phuck".

I think we need a troll club.

I am a proud Troll. Since Troll evidently means "an above average inteligence homebrewer who has opinions"
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I don't use a hose when I brew, but it's not because I'm worried about lead. I just don't like chlorophenols in my beer.
 
The biggest problem is that too many people believe what they hear and hear what they want to believe.
Just because a manufacturer tells you they don't recommend putting 170 degree water in their COOLER, that doesn't mean it leaches, but thats what you want to hear. Have you seen what hot, not even boiling water, does to the plastic? If they let every jackass do what they want the company would be replacing these things left and right so they tell you not to do it.
The fact that some company's bucket says they they can go to 180 does not mean that it is a superior plastic than a COOLER, but thats what you want to hear.
For example: Cambro translucent pans are made out of Polypropylene and rated up to 160. Their clear pans are made from polycarbonate and are rated to 210. This has nothing to do with leaching because they are commercial and plastics that leach are, surprisingly, not food grade.
Some plastics are safe for the microwave, and cooking in aluminum does not give you Alzheimer's. Is that what you wanted to hear?
 
Someone should ask for the actual testing data?

If a manufacturer doesn't recommend putting 170 degree water in a cooler, doesn't mean it doesn't leach. You say oh it's just liability, but that's what you want to hear also.

I thought about getting a cooler for a mash tun, but I checked it out in the store, took one whiff of the inside of the thing, and I will spend a little extra for stainless.

If the thing warps when you put hot water in it, I assume it's leaching something, since the plastic is getting softer.
 
HItransplant said:
how long is a long time?
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Over a decade as part of "official brewing culture" at least, probably longer in various brew clubs, it's hard to tell with stuff like this, since a lot of inovations in this brewing culture are passed now thorugh the internet, and become "canon" quite rapidly. But prior to this forum's inception for sure. If someone wanted to they could comb brewing books or even the older brewing forums to see when it first began to show up in the literature. But long enough that if anything were truly amiss it would have come up by now.
 
orangehero said:
If the thing warps when you put hot water in it, I assume it's leaching something, since the plastic is getting softer.
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Thank you for proving my point. If the material is indeed HDPE like many feel it is, its isn't leaching because it doesn't leach.
I am not saying you have to use it, just like I would never tell a customer they should use aluminum if they don't want to, but it is important that people do not continue to pass on misinformation.

I said nothing about liability, I was talking about how a customer, if given 2-3 minutes, will find a way to mess something up out of ignorance or stupidity. Then they call an 800 number screaming about the cheap piece of crap they bought. So instead of bearing the cost due to mindless consumers, they put a list of Don'ts because they know the limits of their product. CYA, simple as that.

Proof:
I bought a bag of Pistachios. On the back of the bag there was an allergen warning: Contains Pistachios

We sell a propane burner at work that is obviously suitable for use as a turkey fryer. However, 99% of the country does not know that even a small measure of water added to oil of that temperature makes a bomb, so they put in nice bold letters NOT FOR USE AS A TURKEY FRYER. They have no moral liability, but a court has likely ruled against someone in the past so they are convering their ass.

I worked for the largest full service restaurant company on the world. In their new hire packet was a page I had to sign saying I would not travel in the front seat of another team members car if it did not have a passenger seat.

People are inherently stupid when it comes to things. Their hands must be held at every turn so who can blame a company for trying to be thorough. There is nothing to read into it and one should not be surprised when a product fails as a result from use not indicated by the manufacturer.
 
Can you please post a quick link to the research on HDPE that says it doesn't leach? Other plastics would be nice too. I think that would be the most valuable contribution to this thread.
 
I'll support my claims but you'll have to do your own work on the rest.

From http://www.medicinenet.com/plastic/index.htm

"Plastics are in most everything, from the jars, cups and containers that hold our foods and beverages to the construction materials that make up our houses. The number with the arrows on the bottom of a plastic bottle is the resin identification (recycling) number, which indicates the type of plastic the item was made from. Types of plastic include polyethylene terephthalate (#1: PET, PETE), high-density polyethylene (#2: HDPE), polyvinyl chloride (#3: PVC, vinyl), low-density polyethylene (#4: LDPE), polypropylene (#5: PP), polystyrene (#6: PS), and an "other" category (#7), which may contain more than one resin or a resin not mentioned above. Bisphenol A (BPA) is a chemical used to produce epoxy resins and polycarbonate plastics, which are marked with the number 7.""

From http://www.ewg.org/bisphenol-a-info

"When possible it is best to avoid #7 plastics, especially for children's food. Plastics with the recycling labels #1, #2 and #4 on the bottom are safer choices and do not contain BPA."
 
Heh.. fun little thread here...

I have done mini-mashes in a small beer cooler, and my latest batch I did a smaller batch using BIAB in my 5 ga. stainless kettle.

Am I afraid of the scary toxic plastic monster? kinda.

I still ferment using Better Bottles (way safer than risking cutting myself to ribbons on a dropped glass carboy).

I also use tanning beds/tanning booths (because I love the smell of burning flesh, don't give a rats ass about wrinkles, and it's a nice way to avoid going through Vit. D deficiency again)

What's great about this hobby is that there are so many options you can go with to achieve your end result (homebrewed beer!).

If one choooses to avoid plastic because of various (real or perceived) risk factors - use metal. You'll end up with beer either way - you might just have to spend a little more money to get there.

Rock on, homebrew nation. :rockin:
 
Mermaid said:
I also use tanning beds/tanning booths (because I love the smell of burning flesh, don't give a rats ass about wrinkles, and it's a nice way to avoid going through Vit. D deficiency again)
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I think the proper response here is "pics or it didn't happen"? :D ;)
 
northernlad said:
I'll support my claims but you'll have to do your own work on the rest.

From http://www.medicinenet.com/plastic/index.htm

"Plastics are in most everything, from the jars, cups and containers that hold our foods and beverages to the construction materials that make up our houses. The number with the arrows on the bottom of a plastic bottle is the resin identification (recycling) number, which indicates the type of plastic the item was made from. Types of plastic include polyethylene terephthalate (#1: PET, PETE), high-density polyethylene (#2: HDPE), polyvinyl chloride (#3: PVC, vinyl), low-density polyethylene (#4: LDPE), polypropylene (#5: PP), polystyrene (#6: PS), and an "other" category (#7), which may contain more than one resin or a resin not mentioned above. Bisphenol A (BPA) is a chemical used to produce epoxy resins and polycarbonate plastics, which are marked with the number 7.""

From http://www.ewg.org/bisphenol-a-info

"When possible it is best to avoid #7 plastics, especially for children's food. Plastics with the recycling labels #1, #2 and #4 on the bottom are safer choices and do not contain BPA."
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That is just another opinion, just because a web site has "medicine" in the name doesn't make it any more credible than any other opinion. Bottom line is that there is a possibility of plastics leaching, no one really knows the extent to which the leached chemicals affect us. The only thing we really know is that phthalates cause reproductive harm to amphibians, we also know that amphibians are much more sensitive than we are. That said, I think we can all agree that there is some risk associated with high temperatures and plastic, the level of risk is what is debatable. If you want to eliminate risk, then don't use plastic, if you think the risk associated with mashing in plastic is acceptable, then go ahead.
 
The convenient part about these kinds of arguments is no one ever asks a poorly or misinformed person who is scared of a thing to back up their claims.
I never said those websites were the gospel on plastic, and how convenient as well is that argument? I can negate your post as quickly as you attempted with mine simply by saying "That is just another opinion...doesn't make it any more credible than any other opinion" but thats not how a thing is properly debated.

For the record those were two independent sources saying the same thing.
Before you get to scare people over things you think you know, why don't you find anything that proves leaching in HDPE. If I don't get to make a statement and offer sources (whether you think they are suitable or not) then you don't get to toss around information either. Back it up or keep it to yourself and let others make up their own minds.
While we may not know how leaching plastic effects us, somebody sure as hell knows whether or not a plastic does.
 
northernlad, it doesn't seem you really know much about this topic either. I could probably google about 50 independent sources saying that the moon is made from cheese.

I'm trying to find reliable information, not argue with you or just simply calling you out for making unverified statements. That's why I asked for your research articles as you stated it as a fact that it doesn't leach. There are other things in plastic besides BPA that could leach.

Here's one article I found.

"Leaching of organic compounds from pipe materials to water has been demonstrated in previous studies. PVC and HDPE pipes of 51.4 mm diameter were shown to leach VOCs and odorous organic compounds in a migration study that used ultra-pure water as the matrix (Skjevrak et al., 2003)"

Another.

"Independent studies have shown that organic contaminants leach from HDPE pipe into water. While contaminant levels are likely “safe” by USEPA drinking water standards, there are some who will doubt the safety of any level of contamination. The chemical exposure risks cannot be fully elucidated, given the complexity of material types, changing formulations, and varying application circumstances."

One more.

Here they state "Some BPA leaching is possible, but overall leaching potential is low." "[HDPE is] Good for low temperature applications like milk jugs & cold water storage in refrigerator." But there are no references.

I think JonK summarized it well.

My opinion is that I wouldn't turn down a homebrew made in a cooler, but I wouldn't want all my homebrew coming from a cooler.

Sorry I didn't search for other plastics. Perhaps someone else has more information.

Like Gila talked about, the point about the manufacturer not recommending hot liquids is simply a liability issue is not exactly valid. The coolers are obviously not designed to hold hot liquids as they warp and become damaged when you do so.
 
BOTTOM LINE: (if I may)

*warning! intentionally insensetive and combative text to follow*

There are freaking TONS of different ways that you are unwittingly exposed to cancer causing "leachings", from bacon packaging to your water pipes......so........

Smart brewer says: "I need to limit what I can, since there is so much I can't!"

Already brain damaged brewer (from too much lead exposure as a child) says: "Phuck it! The water probly alredy has **** in it, so RDAHAFHBDuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrr"
 
I thought you had a rubber maid and when you wanted to try something adventurous in the bedroom she said "NO!" ;)
 
jgln said:
I thought you had a rubber maid and when you wanted to try something adventurous in the bedroom she said "NO!" ;)
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Ohhhhhhhhhhhh holy god......


;)

That is funny, but your assumption is that non kinky bedroom stunts are a given with the rubber maid, but kinky might be out of line, is funniest!;)
 
cheezydemon3 said:
BOTTOM LINE: (if I may)

*warning! intentionally insensetive and combative text to follow*

There are freaking TONS of different ways that you are unwittingly exposed to cancer causing "leachings", from bacon packaging to your water pipes......so........
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My chemistry professor used to say something along the lines of "The state of California has proven that if you stick enough of anything up a lab rat's crack, it will cause cancer." :p
 
*Warning!*

Tons of this **** have been proven to cause lab rat ass cancer.......


Just about classic.;)
 
northernlad - thanks for saying what I was thinking.

Of course someone from CA is going bananas over something they are assuming is bad for you. Did you have hippie parents? Is your trust fund running low? CA wants to put a warning label on anything that can be misused, yet is the State that started the medical marijuana campaign. They don't want it as medicine, they want to get high, because its awesome. The medical part is the means to the end. <-- this is a form of brainwashing to get what one wants

Wtf are you doing to your cooler that is causing it to warp? I have never seen this.

orange-whatever - citing research isn't helping your cause. I mean, you do realize that the more research they publish, the more money they make, right? Also, how much research has been proven wrong in the past? Especially when it comes to things like health risk assessments.

Hell, I leached out all my harmful chemicals in the first few batches anyways.

Can I ask if my Bevlex beer lines are bad for me too? What about my picnic tabs? They are both constantly receiving acidic liquids.

Can you please start a thread about the people that use brass ball valves in their MLT, too? Make sure you cite Palmer, too.
 
Heating liquid in plastic = "I also like to live dangerously" - Austin Powers after just saying "allow myself to introduce myself"

I did 2 AG batches in my bottling bucket. 1 in the summer out in the 100F heat that maintained temps, once set by the fireplace in the winter for a Munich Helles.................

Both batches were delicious, but made me retardeder.;) And later I unthunk better of them.
 
hahahah. ...True, I do use plastic, but having the Job that I do (Jet mechanic) Im at Much more risk from day to day with the chemicals that im in contact with there than some BS worries about Mashing in a Cooler.
 
funkswing said:
northernlad - thanks for saying what I was thinking.

Of course someone from CA is going bananas over something they are assuming is bad for you. Did you have hippie parents? Is your trust fund running low? CA wants to put a warning label on anything that can be misused, yet is the State that started the medical marijuana campaign. They don't want it as medicine, they want to get high, because its awesome. The medical part is the means to the end. <-- this is a form of brainwashing to get what one wants

Wtf are you doing to your cooler that is causing it to warp? I have never seen this.

orange-whatever - citing research isn't helping your cause. I mean, you do realize that the more research they publish, the more money they make, right? Also, how much research has been proven wrong in the past? Especially when it comes to things like health risk assessments.

Hell, I leached out all my harmful chemicals in the first few batches anyways.

Can I ask if my Bevlex beer lines are bad for me too? What about my picnic tabs? They are both constantly receiving acidic liquids.

Can you please start a thread about the people that use brass ball valves in their MLT, too? Make sure you cite Palmer, too.
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First of all, my parents were beatniks, not hippies. Secondly, I don't give a sh*! what you mash in because I'm never going to drink your beer anyway. I think what the OP posted is useful information and I'm not sure why so many people are having such a reaction. Plastic is made from oil and you want to cook in it and eat out of it. Good for you. My only reason for chiming in on this is it strengthens my argument for the Zapap because the plastic is rated to 180f. Oh and by the way, trust me dude, I don't really care that much anyway. I drink way too much beer and smoke way too many cigarettes for a little plastic to matter.
 
I also silver solder, MIG weld, and grind steel without wearing a respirator. I recently installed fiberglass insulation in my garage without wearing gloves. I also drink coffee and eat bacon. Holy Sheeeet I'm gonna die.

Plastic is made out of oil, but oil is made out of dinosaurs and they are delicious.
 
Why has this suddenly taken a turn towards personal attacks?

What's wrong with you guys? We're brewers- we're generally just about the most laid back people in the world. Have a little tolerance. Or at least, STFU if you can't be tolerant.

Remember that we are all intelligent people who want to have intelligent coversations about all kinds of brewing topics. Equipment, ingredients, techniques, recipes, etc.

I'm an old hippie. I don't eat packaged food, I don't smoke, I exercise and keep myself fit. I still use the plastic cooler, though. I don't think that makes me any more "right" or "wrong" than someone who chooses to use aluminum, or stainless.

I think sharing health concerns is a valid thread topic. I think being sarcastic and belittling is wrong, and I'm very disappointed in the way some of you have responded. People that I liked and respected are arguing about internet citations on someone's concern for a piece of equipment. Seriously, think about that for a minute.

If you don't relate to the OP's concerns, that's fine. If you use aluminum, that's cool. If you microwave plastic, that's ok, too. Remember the Golden Rule here, please.

Personal attacks and snarky comments will NOT be tolerated. I can't believe I have to tell you guys that, for crying out loud!
 
This thread was really interesting. But I don't care for the personal attacks against the OP and others. Very disappointing. Folks, stop taking it as a personal attack when someone questions convention. There's absolutely nothing wrong with questions, in fact that's what this board is all about. Not attacks on someone who differs in opinion.

To the OP, I recommend doing what you feel most comfortable with. I'm the type of person who grows an organic garden, buys as much locally as I can, buys minimally packaged products any time there's the option, no longer heats anything in plastic in the microwave, etc. So I agree that you should try to minimize potential exposure to hazardous chemicals any time you can. Especially since it is often beyond our control. You simply won't gain consensus here on what is right so the best you can do is follow your gut instinct. If you go with plastic I would recommend going with Igloo since they use polypropylene which appears to have a higher melting temp according to the MSDS. So perhaps (and this is coming from someone without any expertise - or connection to Igloo for that matter) that would be less of a hazard than HDPE with a lower melting point. Otherwise, go with stainless steel. It is considerably more expensive, but will likely give you peace of mind.

As for me. I'm unsubscribing to this thread. First time I've done that on HBT. But I'm not interested in the overwhelming negativity. Cheers. :mug:
 
Yooper_Brew said:
Why has this suddenly taken a turn towards personal attacks?

What's wrong with you guys? We're brewers- we're generally just about the most laid back people in the world. Have a little tolerance. Or at least, STFU if you can't be tolerant.

Remember that we are all intelligent people who want to have intelligent coversations about all kinds of brewing topics. Equipment, ingredients, techniques, recipes, etc.

I'm an old hippie. I don't eat packaged food, I don't smoke, I exercise and keep myself fit. I still use the plastic cooler, though. I don't think that makes me any more "right" or "wrong" than someone who chooses to use aluminum, or stainless.

I think sharing health concerns is a valid thread topic. I think being sarcastic and belittling is wrong, and I'm very disappointed in the way some of you have responded. People that I liked and respected are arguing about internet citations on someone's concern for a piece of equipment. Seriously, think about that for a minute.

If you don't relate to the OP's concerns, that's fine. If you use aluminum, that's cool. If you microwave plastic, that's ok, too. Remember the Golden Rule here, please.

Personal attacks and snarky comments will NOT be tolerated. I can't believe I have to tell you guys that, for crying out loud!
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My sincerest apologies if I have offended anyone. Guess I get a little defensive about the anti California talk.
 
JonK331 said:
My sincerest apologies if I have offended anyone. Guess I get a little defensive about the anti California talk.
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SCREW YOU BUDDY!!!!!!

she wuz talkin 2 me.;)

lol.

Anti any region is uncool, but the last 2 people I met from CALI informed me of how backwards Kentucky is!!

Honestly this has resulted in some anti cali sentiments from me.

On behalf of Californians, please accept this apology!

JonK331:mug:cheezydemon3
 
JonK331 said:
First of all, my parents were beatniks, not hippies. Secondly, I don't give a sh*! what you mash in because I'm never going to drink your beer anyway. I think what the OP posted is useful information and I'm not sure why so many people are having such a reaction. Plastic is made from oil and you want to cook in it and eat out of it. Good for you. My only reason for chiming in on this is it strengthens my argument for the Zapap because the plastic is rated to 180f. Oh and by the way, trust me dude, I don't really care that much anyway. I drink way too much beer and smoke way too many cigarettes for a little plastic to matter.
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I am dipping right now! FYI if you want to make an attack use correct terminology...DIP comes in CANS, CHEW/CHAW comes in pouches :)

edit: I am not offended, just some light hearted argument!

To the OP, if you don't feel comfortable using plastics...don't! But don't come on a forum to try and open our eyes to a widespread revelation without some support. If you want some statistical analysis to help make your decision easier or your argument valid, then pay to get it done! It isn't the current users of plastic that need to prove their legitimacy to you, its you making a claim against a accepted piece of brewing culture!

The only motive you could have in starting this thread is argument...

HOWEVER, I respect the fact that you went out and tried to learn for yourself to formulate you own decision. Just when making a claim against something so widely used, people are going to need a little more evidence!

But every innovation to an existing idea faces scrutiny. The examples range from major to minor, historical to modern; from the universe doesn't revolve around earth to secondaries are unnecessary.

It has to start somewhere and this may be the place for this, but we need someone to follow through and actually do the testing to prove a point!
 
Germelli1!!!!

If I didn't know how cool you are from other threads!!!!!

Plastic leaching bad **** is pretty damned common knowledge, many scientists just say, get rid of plastic for food, if it isn't deemed unsafe now, wait a year or 2.

I tried to save you all from GARDEN HOSE LEAD LINED STOUTS, and BOY did I want an argument!!!! What I got was a **** storm from hell of brewers who didn't want to be told that their current practices were BAD.
 
cheezydemon3 said:
Germelli1!!!!

If I didn't know how cool you are from other threads!!!!!

Plastic leaching bad **** is pretty damned common knowledge, many scientists just say, get rid of plastic for food, if it isn't deemed unsafe now, wait a year or 2.

I tried to save you all from GARDEN HOSE LEAD LINED STOUTS, and BOY did I want an argument!!!! What I got was a **** storm from hell of brewers who didn't want to be told that their current practices were BAD.
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Haha, if I was a member during the hose thread I would have been with you. I am not saying his arguement doesn't have any validity...I just personally would like quantitative proof that the exact plastic in question DOES cause harm.

To me it seems more like this thread was for the sake of arguement rather than constructive debate. Maybe the OP was hoping a HBT member was a chemist but in the sucessive posts it seems that is not the case.

I was just offering my suggestion to how I think a constructive argument could be presented...If I am off base just ignore me because unless I can add something valid I am out of this one!
 
Listen people the world is ending in 2012, I don't think you can drink enough beer in the time we have to worry about leaching.
 
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