Not getting 5 or 5.5 gal into fermenter

I am following the strike and sparge water volume exact according to beersmith and i always end up with either 4.5 or a hair under 5 gallons final volume going into my fermenter. Whats going on? am i boiling off too much? should i just do a 3rd batch sparge of a small volume and start with more wort?

My original gravities always hit near correct though. Today, i brewed the centennial blonde and my OG was 1.040 at 4.5 gal.

If you're not getting enough liquid, my guess is that you aren't taking the deadspace in the MLT into consideration. In the equipment profile, you can add the amount of deadspace you have, and Beersmith will increase the water you add to the MLT.

Beersmith works with the figures you give it. I had to play around with it for a while to get my correct boil off, my correct deadspace, etc, dialed into the program. Now, it's spot on with water amounts and strike temperatures!

Looks like you need to start with a higher preboil volume and adjust your efficiency down about 5 points (ie from 75 to 70)

This will cause you to use more grain, to compensate for the extra .5 gallons post boil.

Yoop is right, you will have losses in any system... mine is dialed in to within a few cups of water. I run my HLT and MLT dry during sparge, and my post boil volume is dead on.

I'll come at this from a different angle, cause it's not clear in the original post. Are you completely draining your boil kettle or is there some wort left? If there's some left I'll say it's a miss calculation of dead space in the boil kettle or hop absorption.

I siphoned half of the kettle into the bucket then when it was easier to lift i dumped all of the kettle into it.

Then you are boiling off more than your program is set for... so adjust your boil off in your program and drop your efficiency about 5 points, or you will undershoot you OG with the increased water volume

The Pol said:

Then you are boiling off more than your program is set for... so adjust your boil off in your program and drop your efficiency about 5 points, or you will undershoot you OG with the increased water volume

Click to expand...

Thanks, I will try that for the next brew. My boil off rate was set to 9% an hour, I will bump it up to 11%

Edit: I changed the values in beersmith in the recipes, and it has not affected the volumes of sparge water. Doesnt make sense to me.

You're kidding, right? You're not going to just randomly set it. I mean to say, really.

You obviously know how much you've got in the kettle at the start of the boil and you obviously know how much you've got at the end of the boil. We're not talking calculus, here; it's fifth-grade arithmetic to figure out the percentage boiled off per hour.

Cheers,

Bob

NQ3X said:

You're kidding, right? You're not going to just randomly set it.

You obviously know how much you've got in the kettle at the start of the boil and you obviously know how much you've got at the end of the boil. We're not talking calculus, here; it's fifth-grade arithmetic to figure out the percentage boiled off per hour.

Cheers,

Bob

Click to expand...

Actually I don't know exactly how much i have in my kettle before the boil, I don't have any measurements on the kettle. And I dont know the "5th grade arithmetic" for that. Christ all mighty, if youre just gonna come here to berate people who ask a question, then get the **** out of my thread.

Yeah, that response was not helpful at all.

If you are coming in .5 gallons SHY on a 5 gallon batch. Meaning you are about 10% off. You need to plan for about 10% more boil off. My keggle will boil off 19%, so your 9% is pretty low. May want to experiment with 15%, see if that increases your water requirement by about .5 gallons.

Okay, men, I thought it was a joke. Unwad your knickers.

I mean, really; how can you even start brewing if you don't have any idea what volumes you're dealing with? Anyway, let me get practical and actually help.

If you don't know how much you have in the kettle to begin with, you can't even begin to solve the problem. Changing software settings is pissing into the wind until you get lucky (unlikely) and randomly stumble on the correct settings.

Here's how to fix the problem. Get a stick or spoon or something. I use a random piece of 3/8" dowel I found in the garage. Pour a measured amount of water into your kettle. Dip the stick to the lowest part of the kettle. Observe the water level on the stick. Mark the stick. Repeat with more water until you get to your desired pre-boil level. Eventually you'll figure out that a certain length on the stick is a certain amount of fluid in the kettle, and can stop pouring water and start using a ruler.

How to mark it is up to you; my AG batches are 3 gallons, so I marked mine with a Sharpie by the quart, with larger lines for half-gallon and lines all the way round the stick for gallons. Some brewers use a metal spoon and scribe the levels thereon. Really, what you use is up to you.

Now you can tell if you're even starting with what your software says you need by using your dipstick while sparging. After the boil and knockout, you can measure what you collect in the fermenter.

From there, you can apply the fifth-grade arithmetic. For example, if you start with 7 gallons in the kettle and end up with 5 after an hour's boil, you've lost ~28%.

If you don't know how to arrive at that figure, let me know, and I will get the **** out of your thread, because you'll have scared the **** out of me.

Cheers,

Bob

Here is an easier idea... hardly pissing into the wind...

Since you know you are about .5 gallons short, adjust your boil off ammount in beer smith until it sayes your post boil volme is 4.5 gallons. OR until it shows a water requirement .5 gallons greater than what you used in this recipe.

Since there is no way to go back and see what your "actual" boil off rate was, just reverse engineer it. Adjust the boil rate until it shows you requiring .5 gallons MORE water total to reach your post boil volume of 5 gallons.

You can use the values that you KNOW, to get the value that is missing.

You PLANNED for 5 gallons
You GOT 4.5 gallons
Your boil off rate is XXXXX

Adjust XXXX to achieve an increase of .5 gallons. This way you can compute it PRIOR to brewing your next brew. Then tweak it on your next brew.

I can run my HLT and MLT dry when I sparge and hit my pre boil and post boil volumes exactly... this should get you close.

Um. Respectfully, Pol, I don't see the point in fiddling with software when the actual, reality, non-ones-and-zeroes situation is unknown. The problem can't really be solved until the physical measurements are known.

Or are you talking about something totally different than what I think is going on?

Bob

He knows all of the constants, except one... he is solving for X... seems simple to me. This will get him close, on his next brew he can take actual real life measurements, but he cant do that until he brews again...

I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Gotcha. Holiday Inn is Da Bomb.

That's what I get for advocating the physical way! I couldn't solve for X if you paid me, but I can measure and do arithmetic. Easier for me that way.

I still fail to understand how it's possible to estimate what ends up in the fermenter when the other two variables - pre-boil volume and boil-off rate - are unknown. Or am I getting lost in that they're unknown to me?

Beersmith will give you mash and sparge volumes...
It will compute grain absorption...
He left no wort in the kettle...
Regardless of what was in there, seems he left no water unused, leaving me to deduce that the problem is the boil rate, and 9% is really low. He knows he is .5 gallons short of his post boil, so he must deduce that he needs to plan for .5 more boil off. He must increase his boil rate to reflect an increase of .5 gallons of water needed to sparge.

If he runs off 5.8 gallons, planning for 9% boil off he will end up with nearly 4.6 gallons if his boil off is actually a realistic 19%. But if Beersmith is programmed with a 9% boil off, it will tell him to expect 5.2 gallons. I bet he ran off about 5.8 gallons.

Aha! Thanks for the explanation!

ProMash - my software of choice - will do the same thing. I went round and round trying to do the same thing until I said, "The h3ll with this!", filled my kettle, marked my dipstick, and boiled for an hour. Then I punched in the numbers.

And thus is my bias exposed.

Bob

So let me get this straight NQ3X, you were bashing the OP for not being able to do basic arithmetic, but then you admit you cannot do 7th grade Algebra and solve for one variable!!

Did you get it all tuned in OP?

To get beersmith to give the right results, 3 conditions have to be satisfied.
1. The Beersmith calculations have to be accurate.
2. You must provide Beersmith with the right data to perform the calculations
3. You must use the weights and volumes that Beersmith suggests.
I think that the source of the problem is items 1 and 2.

I don't have Beersmith, so I can't use it to check my assumptions, but expressing a boil off as a percentage of the volume per hour is obviously incorrect.
Assume that you are going to boil 6 gallons of wort for an hour, and that at the end of the hour, you end up with 5.4 gallons. You will have boiled off 0.6 gallons or 10%
Now assume that you are going to boil 3 gallons for an hour. Assuming the same rate of evaporation, you will still evaporate 0.6 gallons, but because of the reduced volume, this will result in a 20% boil off rate. The point is that the boil off rate cannot be expressed as a percentage if the volume varies, but could be used if you always boil the same volume.

The next thing is to provide Beersmith with the right information. As you end up with short volume, you clearly haven't given Beersmith all the information it needs to give you the right results (or your measuring skills need to be improved).
Somewhere during the process, you are losing 1/2 - 1 gallon, so you need to work out how much you are losing (a spread of 1/2 gallon is not accurate enough), and at what point during the process you are losing this volume.
How do you measure your strike water, and is there any possibility that this measurement could be wrong?
How do you measure your sparge water, and is there any possibility that this measurement could be wrong?
How do you transfer the sparge water to the MLT, and is it all transferred, or do you leave some behind in the HLT?
How do you sparge. Batch or Fly?
Do you transfer all the contents of the MLT to the kettle when sparging, or do you leave some behind in the MLT?
How much dead space is there in the MLT? (I suspect that this could be part of your problem)
Do you have some accurate bathroom scales? These can be very useful (in conjunction with a hydrometer) when determining wort volumes
Finally, I'm not surprised that increasing the boil off rate from 9% to 11% didn't make much difference. Assuming you start the boil with 6 gallons, this would make a difference of less than 1 pint.

-a.

IrregularPulse said:

So let me get this straight NQ3X, you were bashing the OP for not being able to do basic arithmetic, but then you admit you cannot do 7th grade Algebra and solve for one variable!!

Click to expand...

Well, yeah.

I barely passed Algebra I. I'm a humanities guy. Start adding letters and I expect them to form coherent words and sentences; mix them with numbers and my intellect pretty much goes "Bing!" and crashes.

In my own defense, I must point out that Algebra is mathematics, which is different than arithmetic. Arithmetic is addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. Figuring percentages is a function of arithmetic, which ought to be mastered by fifth grade. If it's not mastered by then, well, that's the sort of thing to make a person with the future of the human race at heart despair.

Cheers,

Bob

NQ3X said:

Well, yeah.

I barely passed Algebra I. I'm a humanities guy. Start adding letters and I expect them to form coherent words and sentences; mix them with numbers and my intellect pretty much goes "Bing!" and crashes.

In my own defense, I must point out that Algebra is mathematics, which is different than arithmetic. Arithmetic is addition, subtraction, division and multiplication. Figuring percentages is a function of arithmetic, which ought to be mastered by fifth grade. If it's not mastered by then, well, that's the sort of thing to make a person with the future of the human race at heart despair.

Cheers,

Bob

Click to expand...

Sorry gotta call Shennanigans on you. How is it certain doom to not master 5th grade intellect, but acceptable to not master 7th grade!
Just a fun pick fest here.

How do you measure your strike water, and is there any possibility that this measurement could be wrong?A smaller pot that has quart markings
How do you measure your sparge water, and is there any possibility that this measurement could be wrong?A smaller pot that has quart markings
How do you transfer the sparge water to the MLT, and is it all transferred, or do you leave some behind in the HLT?Dump the pot of water into my cooler
How do you sparge. Batch or Fly? Batch
Do you transfer all the contents of the MLT to the kettle when sparging, or do you leave some behind in the MLT?I let it drain until it wont drain any more
How much dead space is there in the MLT? (I suspect that this could be part of your problem) Coleman extreme cooler, which I've read from others is about a pint.

BP your boil off is much higher than 9%. I calculate my boil off at about 1.5 gallons/hour... that is almost 19% on a 5 gallon batch. I think you need to adjust your boil off numbers!

Thanks, I read your post from a page before and it helped me the most. It makes sense. I punched in 19% boil off and it says i should be starting with 7.07 gal if i want 5.5 gal in the bucket.

I am going to also do the marking of the spoon gimmick and really see how much is boiled off.

Thanks to everyone for their advice.

Perfect, I drilled holes in my stir paddle in .5 gal increments from 5-8.5 gallons. Works really well to double check things.

Glad I could help!! Remember, this increase in water will reduce gravity points, so you may need to adjust efficiency accordingly. Id say 5 points

Did anyone mention the math in figuring how much a pot holds?

PI X radius of pot X height / 231. All figures in inches. as 231 is the number of cubic inches of a gallon.

So a 12 inch accross pot would be PI X 6 X lets say 7 inches deep divided by 231 will give us 3.427191986 gallons.

During the boil I keep a measuring tape handy. I measure down from the top to monitor progress.

I don't have the numbers for metric as I am a hick from Iowa and I are too stoopid to know metrical numbers and such.

Now it is time for some hop flavored beverages. Ta.

Good equations, too bad they wont work in a keggle... but manually measuring it isnt too hard in there either.

Ya, there ya go. These equations would only apply to a cylinder. With the odd shaped things, use the Thomas Edison method.

Currently courting a Hefe Weizen. A german buddy at work told me that means yeast and wheat. Man, those germens are silver tongued bastidges.

Another pal of the mexican persuation says hefe means boss. Maybe he's calling me yeast.

Back to my hefe, "you are not the boss of me you scheiskoff bendayho hefe"

I agree that boiloff as a percentage is asinine. Boiloff is most affected by kettle surface area/diameter. A given pot with the same boil vigor will boil off the same amount whether you're starting with 6 or 14 gallons. You can see how the percentage equation fails there.

Figure on about 1.25 or 1.5 gallons per 60 minutes.

Your efficiency will actually go up if you increase your sparge volume a bit anyway so it's all good.

I increased my sparge, runoff and boil time, my efficiency didnt budge a single point... I think there comes a point when your runoff is so dilute, that it doenst offer much in the way of SG points. Especially if you are not boiling it off, you are running more off, but also ending with a more dilute solution...

(ie adding an additional 1 gallon at 1.015, but leaving that extra gallon of liquid in the fermentor, NOT boiling the water out of it) SO, essentially he ended up with 4.5 gallons at 1.040 and will now be adding a gallon at 1.015 or so to reach his 5.5 gallons. In my simple mind that would equal a more dilute wort, meaning a theoretical decrease in efficiency.

The Pol said:

Since you know you are about .5 gallons short, adjust your boil off ammount in beer smith until it sayes your post boil volme is 4.5 gallons. OR until it shows a water requirement .5 gallons greater than what you used in this recipe.

Click to expand...

This won't work because you will have some boil off of the .5 gallon so you will still fall about 3 pints shy. But, it will get you closer.

The Pol said:

Since there is no way to go back and see what your "actual" boil off rate was, just reverse engineer it. Adjust the boil rate until it shows you requiring .5 gallons MORE water total to reach your post boil volume of 5 gallons.

Click to expand...

This will work. I did this very thing. I had to increase my boil volume up to 8 gallons for a couple reasons. 1) I use 5 ounces of whole hops and 2) the evaporation rate.

When I boil 60 minute batches I need 8 gallons. When I boil 90 minute batches I need 8.6 gallons.

I gain the additional water during the sparge. Since doing this and grinding my own grain I consistently get over 80% efficiency.

My experience with batch sparging says that the last runnings are still near 1.020 or so. If he collects an extra gallon preboil and reduces that down to 1/2 gallon, it's at 1.040. I don't look at it like he's adding that dilute wort to the fermenter directly.

Oh, I am referring to fly sparging... where your last runnings are very dilute.

I dont understand how collecting an extra gallon will reduce to .5 gallons when boiled, if boil off is a constant as we have discussed.

If I collect 6 gallons and boil off 1.5 gallons, I have 4.5 left
If I collect 7 gallons and boil off 1.5 gallons, I have 5.5 left

I dont have 5.0 left if I collect an extra gallon... do I? How can 4.5 + 1.0 = 5.0???

The Pol said:

Perfect, I drilled holes in my stir paddle in .5 gal increments from 5-8.5 gallons. Works really well to double check things.

Glad I could help!! Remember, this increase in water will reduce gravity points, so you may need to adjust efficiency accordingly. Id say 5 points

Click to expand...

Since he's using BeerSmith he can leave his brew house efficiency where it is and adjust his recipes for the desired OG. I do this by writing down the percentages of the grain used in the original grain bill. If it needs to be adjusted to get to the targeted OG then I hit "save as" and give a numeric code along with the name of the beer (Pale Ale I) etc. Then I adjust the grain bill until I hit my target OG for my efficiency rate and I get as close to the percentages of each type of grain. Once I make all of the adjustments I save the adjusted recipe and I archive the original recipe in a folder marked "original recipes". It works like a champ. I can take any recipe and adjust the grain bill to fit my efficiency rate and theoretically it would taste exactly the same as the persons beer who developed the recipe, water being of the same parameters of course.

The Pol said:

Oh, I am referring to fly sparging... where your last runnings are very dilute.

I dont understand how collecting an extra gallon will reduce to .5 gallons when boiled, if boil off is a constant as we have discussed.

If I collect 6 gallons and boil off 1.5 gallons, I have 4.5 left
If I collect 7 gallons and boil off 1.5 gallons, I have 5.5 left

I dont have 5.0 left if I collect an extra gallon... do I? How can 4.5 + 1.0 = 5.0???

Click to expand...

Because 19% of 7 is 1.33 and 19% of 6 is 1.14 which is slightly more than a pint. So it works but, I'm just anal.

Right, my point was he was staing that he had a certain efficiency because he hit the target OG of 1.040... but he ended up with a more concentrated wort since he missed his target volume by a gallon.

My point was if he "thought" he had say 80% efficiency, the fact that he was 1.0 gallons short on his final volume, would mean that he did NOT have 80% efficiency. Because the Beersmith efficiency would have been predicated on his target 5.5 gallons, not his actual 4.5

Heck, I could have 95% efficiency if I planned for a 5.5 gallon brew, and just boiled it down to 4 gallons. Doesnt mean I have 95% efficiency, my efficiency is actually less.

Bob869007 said:

Because 19% of 7 is 1.33 and 19% of 6 is 1.14 which is slightly more than a pint. So it works but, I'm just anal.

Click to expand...

Boil cannot be computed as a percentage as previously stated... it will be a constant that is relative to temp, humidity, time and surface area. Meaning that if you run off an extra gallon, you will have an extra gallon in the fermentor.

The Pol said:

Boil cannot be computed as a percentage as previously stated... it will be a constant that is relative to temp, humidity, time and surface area. Meaning that if you run off an extra gallon, you will have an extra gallon in the fermentor.

Click to expand...

I must have missed that. I saw all the posts that referred to a 19% boil off rate. I see what you mean now. Your boil amount is based on a percentage but not calculated by the percentage itself. I get it.

You probably already know this but you can plug all of the readings into beerSmith and it will calculate your efficiency for that batch. So he could change the batch size to 4.5 gallons and figure out what his efficiency was and calculate adjustments for future batches. This is what caused me to buy my own grain mill.

BTW, I'm still learnin'.

I am getting my own mill too... just spent $400 to upgrade my E-HERMS so I am saving for it while brewing. The crush I am getting SUCKS. I think I could get close to 90% with a good crush, and a thin mash. Doing some thin mash testing this month....

If you would post your results of the thin mash on here that would be great. My efficiency went up 17 percentage points from 64-81 just by crushing my own grain. I bought a Barley Crusher and I used it right out of the box with the original factory settings. I got my Pale Ale recipes down to 9.15 lbs of grain and I'm pulling in 5.21% ABV. I use either Nottingham or SafAle US-05 yeast and my brews always finish out at 1.009 except for the one that my strike temp was too high. At 1.016 my friends will have two cases of beer to drink.