This is very true. I can't think of any reason oats would have the effect claimed. Until I can either get an explanation or the results of a blind triangle tasting, I'm afraid I'll remain skeptical.
Why is my beer better when bottled with oats?
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This is very true. I can't think of any reason oats would have the effect claimed. Until I can either get an explanation or the results of a blind triangle tasting, I'm afraid I'll remain skeptical.
OP
OP
oldschool
Well-Known Member
I had two bombers of this porter left from the "oat" batch. One of them had 5 oats dropped in when bottled and one without. You may think that Just me and my brew buddy are not an adequate test panel but I believe it. We waited as long as we could, it's been almost 6 months since it was fermented. We used two identical glasses, put a post-it note one the bottom of each.one with a mark to identify the oat bottled beer. After I poured some in each glass my friend turned his back as i mixed the two glasses, then he did the same thing. We took turns sniffing and trading back and fourth, comparing what we thought. Then did the tasting. The aroma on one of them was far better, and richer with malt complexity than the other. When we tasted, one had a taste that i can't really describe, but it was sweeter and smoother. We both enjoy good porters and thought it was a better beer. I swore to him that the better beer would be the one "without" the oats, he swore the opposite. We came to a conclusion on which one was the better beer, then looked.........i'll be damned if the beer with oats in the bottle wasn't far better! I'm brewing a porter next and i'm going to try it again. If you guys still don't believe me you should really try it. Sorry for the dissapointing news. school
electric_beer
Well-Known Member
Where would brewing be without the Belgians?
As long as you store the bottles in a safe location (in case of bottle bombs, although highly unlikely) then this should make for a good experiment. Even if you do get lacto, as long as your beer finished relatively low and was drank in a few months then you shouldn't be concerned. Plenty of great beer have been soured. Not to mention "bugs" don't like to ferment under 75 degrees very well.
As long as you store the bottles in a safe location (in case of bottle bombs, although highly unlikely) then this should make for a good experiment. Even if you do get lacto, as long as your beer finished relatively low and was drank in a few months then you shouldn't be concerned. Plenty of great beer have been soured. Not to mention "bugs" don't like to ferment under 75 degrees very well.
OP
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oldschool
Well-Known Member
I've had sour beer, this was far from it. I'm really being honest i wouldn't spend my time publishing false results. The bottle that did not contain oats had more carbonation, not sure why and it may not have it just seemed that way to me.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
Considering the closed-mindedness and dismissive nature of some of this thread it doesn't surprise me at all. I'm surprised at some of the responses and even more surprised by who gave them (I thought they'd be much more scientific and open-minded).
I want to know 'why' it works (after I verify it does work). The contamination issue is probably fixable if that's even desired. But to just poo-poo it without ever trying it...wow indeed.
remilard
Well-Known Member
I did not read this whole thread, and I do not think the update is convincing as there was a 25% chance they would both choose the oated beer at random (although I guess it is persuasive evidence that the oats did not ruin the beer).
However, here is my shot at an explanation (I neither believe this to be valid nor believe it to be invalid, it is vaguely plausible I think).
Maybe it is like putting a potato in a stew that you seasoned too much. The oats are absorbing some flavor compounds and the OP and his friend prefer the beer with less of those flavor compounds.
OP
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oldschool
Well-Known Member
All i can say is just try it. From all the "debbie downers" in this thread i was convinced that the "OATED" beer would have either become infected, or be hardly any difference at all. The LARGEST difference both of us noted was the aroma was fuller and richer in the oated beer, it did have some better taste but the aroma was a far greater difference. Just try it on your next porter, what do you have to loose? one beer?
Brewsmith
Home brewing moogerfooger
/Debbie Downer chiming in
All I can say at this point is that if you like the flavor the oats contribute, then add it to the grain bill in the first place. I don't refute that something DID happen. My biggest point is that adding raw, unsanitized/pasteurized grain into finished beer is a bad idea. Just because something didn't happen this time, doesn't mean it can't in the future.
Raw grain is covered in Lactobacillus and all kinds of other bacteria. It's a sure fast way to sour your beer.
And for the record, adding oats to a porter does sound like a good idea. It works well with stouts and I can see how the oats would add to the beer.
/DD signing out
All I can say at this point is that if you like the flavor the oats contribute, then add it to the grain bill in the first place. I don't refute that something DID happen. My biggest point is that adding raw, unsanitized/pasteurized grain into finished beer is a bad idea. Just because something didn't happen this time, doesn't mean it can't in the future.
Raw grain is covered in Lactobacillus and all kinds of other bacteria. It's a sure fast way to sour your beer.
And for the record, adding oats to a porter does sound like a good idea. It works well with stouts and I can see how the oats would add to the beer.
/DD signing out
remilard
Well-Known Member
Adding them to the recipe would probably not have the same effect, if there is an effect.
Lacto won't grow in most finished beer, that isn't to say that other stuff isn't on the oats.
tbrink
Active Member
i read this thread with some interest and decided "why not?". i recently made a batch of dunkelwiezen and when i bottled, i added about 5 oat flakes before filling with beer to a small sample batch of a dozen bottles.
like some others around here, i like to taste 1 beer a week just to keep track of the taste as it matures, and 1 week after bottling i couldn't resist and popped open one of my oatybrews.
i was astounded at the flavor!
well i can't very well judge it against nothing, so i had to crack open a regular bottle just to see the difference, and it was exactly how i expected the oaty one to taste--green and not at 100%.
needless to say, i was disappointed. don't get me wrong, the beer is good, but that oat sample was in a league of its own.
so take it from yet another internet stranger--DON'T BE AFRAID TO EXPERIMENT!! you just might like what happens. now i'm kind of wishing i hadn't been so conservative with my experiment.
like some others around here, i like to taste 1 beer a week just to keep track of the taste as it matures, and 1 week after bottling i couldn't resist and popped open one of my oatybrews.
i was astounded at the flavor!
well i can't very well judge it against nothing, so i had to crack open a regular bottle just to see the difference, and it was exactly how i expected the oaty one to taste--green and not at 100%.
needless to say, i was disappointed. don't get me wrong, the beer is good, but that oat sample was in a league of its own.
so take it from yet another internet stranger--DON'T BE AFRAID TO EXPERIMENT!! you just might like what happens. now i'm kind of wishing i hadn't been so conservative with my experiment.
Reminds me of this.
http://www.tweakaudio.com/Cd tweaks.html
Your test needs a condition wherein you do not know if your both glasses are from the same bottle (ie reporting a difference where there is none.)
http://www.tweakaudio.com/Cd tweaks.html
Your test needs a condition wherein you do not know if your both glasses are from the same bottle (ie reporting a difference where there is none.)
Can you reword your statement? I'm not sure I'm following, unless you weren't following how we did it. We used two different bottles of the porter, one with the oats, one w/out the oats. Is that what you meant? I know the "study" wasn't the most scientific one in the world, but it was a true double-blind. Neither of us knew which glass was which. I set up the glasses, and moved them around while his back was turned, then he did the same while I turned my back. I would have incorporated more people if we had a larger sample, but the beer was just too damn good to let some of our other friends try, lol. Honestly, it was a combination of that, AND the fact that none of our friends are true beer geeks. They wouldn't have provided much help.
I'm glad someone else out there finally tried it. Progressive brewing at its best. I'm glad it worked out for you; personally, I'm hooked. For those of you whining about the unsanitary methods, I won't argue with you, but I will say that it is easily solved. I got away with ignorance once, I won't repeat it (the ignorantly not sanitizing the oats...I'll definitely keep bottle-oating my porters/stouts). I think from now on, I'm calling this boating, lol.
I'm glad someone else out there finally tried it. Progressive brewing at its best. I'm glad it worked out for you; personally, I'm hooked. For those of you whining about the unsanitary methods, I won't argue with you, but I will say that it is easily solved. I got away with ignorance once, I won't repeat it (the ignorantly not sanitizing the oats...I'll definitely keep bottle-oating my porters/stouts). I think from now on, I'm calling this boating, lol.
Boating is better than BO...
You both knew that both samples were one of each. Therfore, you might have a bias that there is a difference.
If you got two samples from the same bottle then any reported difference would might cast some doubt on your reported ability to discern between the two.
If you got two samples from the same bottle then any reported difference would might cast some doubt on your reported ability to discern between the two.
In the name of science I will sacrifice a half keg and dry oat it. I will toss in 4 oz of oats tomorrow into ~2 gal.
In ref. to olllllo:
I agree; this wasn't the case, but I agree with what you are saying. I'll boat ~1-2 gallons of my Chocolate Oatmeal Stout. I'll set up multiple double blinds covering all the bases and report back...this might be awhile though. Don't hold your breath, but do try this for yourself during the time being. I'm going to start experimenting with the # of oats as well. Seriously, if you want to add a new (and delicious) element to a porter or stout, try this out. The worst that can happen is some bad beer (seriously doubt b-bombs would come into play using only 5 oats).
I agree; this wasn't the case, but I agree with what you are saying. I'll boat ~1-2 gallons of my Chocolate Oatmeal Stout. I'll set up multiple double blinds covering all the bases and report back...this might be awhile though. Don't hold your breath, but do try this for yourself during the time being. I'm going to start experimenting with the # of oats as well. Seriously, if you want to add a new (and delicious) element to a porter or stout, try this out. The worst that can happen is some bad beer (seriously doubt b-bombs would come into play using only 5 oats).
I'm assuming you did the math and 5 oats/bottle equates to 4oz/~2 gal? I really hope it works out for you. I'm really interested to see what happens with the larger sample, as well as the larger vessel. Changing some variables, but c'est la vie. Is the half keg a porter or a stout?
tbrink
Active Member
hey, i was doubtful too--how on earth can five oat flakes make that much of a difference? but then i'm not so doubtful i can't sacrifice a couple of bottles in the name of beer science. when i read this thread and posts from all the well meaning yet ill informed debbie downers, i kind of expected the worst and hoped for the best. besides, it's just beer, for crying out loud!
i should point out that it is such a drastic difference, a blind test would be ridiculous. you'd have to have a completely obliterated sense of smell and taste due to a severe sinus infection and eating a bunch of habaneros to be unable to discern between the two. if you're a reader of these forums, i'm willing to hazard the assumption that you know what your beer tastes like.
however, time will tell whether or not this difference will diminish as the other non-oat batch ages. i would be interested in tasting some in a few months...uh, if it lasts that long.
all i know is right now, one week after bottling, the oat-adulterated brew tasted much more flavorful, with definite mouthfeel and a thicker head. there is no sourness apparent.
i'm thinking the comparison to adding a potato in stew actually made a little sense, because i detected hardly any of the esters i was expecting from an underripe wiezen and were blatantly obvious in the control batch. if you know munich yeast, you know what i'm talking about.
seriously, it was like drinking two completely different beers...which i guess was the case, technically speaking.
let's review:
by my count so far, there are three people in this thread that have added a small amount of oats to their beer at bottling and reported a positive, detectable flavor change. this doesn't include the few others that said they'd be willing to give it a shot and report back but haven't done so yet.
the number of people that have actually done this and reported negative results so far: zero.
the number of people people that are choosing to play armchair brewer and refrain from the experiment yet think their opinions will somehow hold weight: well, you know who you are. i honestly hope you can bring that number up to at least one so your fears can be validated.
i leave it to everyone to make their own decisions. meanwhile, i'm going to keep on relaxing, not worrying and thoroughly enjoying my oaty home brew!
cheers, oldschool!
Well I never used a green marker on a CD, have you? I don't consider myself to be ill informed.
How would this oat thing compare, if say, you did it at serving?
How would this oat thing compare, if say, you did it at serving?
No clue what you are talking about in relation to the CD/marker thing...please explain.
Good point about experimenting more...I think you are catching on to the whole reason oldschool and I tried this in the first place. Beer science! Try new things; reference Einstein's famous quote about failing. It definitely applies here (although, the oats are 3/3 in the success category).
I would surmise that you wouldn't tell much of a difference using your method; it would be like making some Early Grey, but only steeping for a matter of seconds. BUT, somebody out there has to give it a try, and not merely put it down because of mere speculation. This includes me; I'll try it.
BTW tbrink, you summarized the whole thing quite well. Happy (oaty) Brewing!
The link I provided. The green marker is a reference to a CD audiophile meme that was going around in the late 90's. People swore up and down that marking up the edge of a cd made the cd play with more clarity.
tbrink
Active Member
no, and i don't wear a foil hat, point to chemtrails, or hunt for the buried pirate treasure of bigfoot's ghost.
okay, we get the point--you're suspicious. i'm not faulting you for that, it's a great quality to have. i would like to stress that i was suspicious about the oat thing as well, but i figured why flap my trap about something if i didn't go out and actually try it? i didn't want to seem...well, ill informed. sorry if the term offended you, but i believe that knowledge without experience is like beer without alcohol. yeah, it'll get you through some occasions, but it's just not the same and people really can tell the difference.
that being said, i don't think adding oats at the pour would produce the same results, since you need some time for the beer to react to the oats--remember, beer is a living thing. likewise, adding oats to the initial grain bill would produce a different result since you've got the added process of boiling going on, and anyone that has had a simple high school chemistry class will know that a chemical reaction with heat often produces different results than without.
have you ever had mexican coke, or the pepsi throwback? did you need a bottle of the regular stuff to taste a difference? if you haven't tried one, would you still cross your arms and say there's no difference between corn syrup and cane sugar without even trying it?
actually, it might help to think about the taste difference dry hopping makes in contrast to boiling.
but whatever; there's no point arguing one way or another. if you're not going to try it, you're not going to try it. it's not like anybody's twisting your arm.
so i say let's set this contention aside and let other testimonials--good or bad--roll in.
after all, we're all here for the beer!
cimirie
Well-Known Member
So, I haven't seen this thread in quite a while. I'm glad I stumbled back over it tonight. I have to say "Wow!" I can't believe the negativity this thread has drummed up. The overriding "common" knowledge is that adding unsanitized products to a beer will result in infection. That's based on general brewing knowledge and lots of experience.
My guess is that not a single argument against this technique was arrived at by people actually experimenting with it. Common knowledge is not infallible. The world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, we couldn't land on the moon... These things were all common knowledge at the time. More times than not, common knowledge prevails. But it doesn't always.
What you need to refute a claim is evidence. And it sounds like what we have so far are 3 relatively scientific experiments that claim adding oats at bottling time enhance flavor and have no detrimental effects on the beer. While not conclusive, it sounds like the foundation of a good rebuttal against "common" brewing knowledge.
I can't tell you how little water the "it's never been discovered before so it must not be true" argument carries. Really? With all of the technological advances we see daily, you're telling me not a single one of these things has been researched for many years?
I'm not in favor of bad brewing practices. This site does alot for furthering the brewing cause - complete with great information and advice. But shooting holes in the theories of experimenters who KNOW that what they're doing is outside the realm of standard operating procedures, without having any first hand evidence to back it up flies right in the face of everything this board stands for. It seems like everybody is afraid to accept some new facet or truth that may change what they've come to know and accept.
The likelihood is that the masses are correct - adding unsanitized oats to the bottling process probably has negative effects on a beer on a long enough timeline. But being so adamant about something without having tried it yourself.... Sounds way too conservative to me.
My guess is that not a single argument against this technique was arrived at by people actually experimenting with it. Common knowledge is not infallible. The world is flat, the sun revolves around the earth, we couldn't land on the moon... These things were all common knowledge at the time. More times than not, common knowledge prevails. But it doesn't always.
What you need to refute a claim is evidence. And it sounds like what we have so far are 3 relatively scientific experiments that claim adding oats at bottling time enhance flavor and have no detrimental effects on the beer. While not conclusive, it sounds like the foundation of a good rebuttal against "common" brewing knowledge.
I can't tell you how little water the "it's never been discovered before so it must not be true" argument carries. Really? With all of the technological advances we see daily, you're telling me not a single one of these things has been researched for many years?
I'm not in favor of bad brewing practices. This site does alot for furthering the brewing cause - complete with great information and advice. But shooting holes in the theories of experimenters who KNOW that what they're doing is outside the realm of standard operating procedures, without having any first hand evidence to back it up flies right in the face of everything this board stands for. It seems like everybody is afraid to accept some new facet or truth that may change what they've come to know and accept.
The likelihood is that the masses are correct - adding unsanitized oats to the bottling process probably has negative effects on a beer on a long enough timeline. But being so adamant about something without having tried it yourself.... Sounds way too conservative to me.
If that didn't paint the right picture, what will? I look forward to hearing about more experimenters in this realm. Keep em' coming in!
I think remilard is onto something here.
Think beechwood aging. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the oats are absorbing "something" that contributes to strong/off flavors. If I recall properly with beechwood aging (wood chips I believe) this give a lot of surface area for the yeast (and other stuff) to collect on while the beer is aging. It wouldn't surprise me if lots of different things added at bottling could do the same thing. Just something porous with a bunch of surface area, possibly with the right surface charges. Maybe this is really not that different from adding a fining agent.
Other options could be a beneficial microbe on the oats. Every grain is going to have it's own unique collection of microbes associated with it. If you have enough hops in the beer, and the ABV is high enough, the lactobacillus won't be a problem.
Heck maybe I'll autoclave some oats and try it. I have two 3 gal kegs so I could "treat" one and not the other
l1ranger
Well-Known Member
i just read all this and my interest is growing.
has anybody tried this with somethign other than a stout or porter?
Has anybody took the one suggestion of baking the oats, long enough and hot enough to kill anything that might spoil the beer?
has anybody tried this with somethign other than a stout or porter?
Has anybody took the one suggestion of baking the oats, long enough and hot enough to kill anything that might spoil the beer?
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
Just stumbled on to this thread, as well. Very interesting discussion (even the lively, tangential parts).
I am going to try this myself now -- my curiosity is totally piqued.
The naysayers are concerned about infection, but I think that risk can be overcome. I'm going to try pressure-cooking some quick oat flakes in a loosely sealed mason jar. That should keep the oats from getting moist, but kill any microbes or spores. Easy fix.
I just trained 15 new BJCP judges in our homebrew club, so if I can do this soon, I will recruit as many of them as possible in a controlled taste test this spring.
I am going to try this myself now -- my curiosity is totally piqued.
The naysayers are concerned about infection, but I think that risk can be overcome. I'm going to try pressure-cooking some quick oat flakes in a loosely sealed mason jar. That should keep the oats from getting moist, but kill any microbes or spores. Easy fix.
I just trained 15 new BJCP judges in our homebrew club, so if I can do this soon, I will recruit as many of them as possible in a controlled taste test this spring.
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oldschool
Well-Known Member
Not that i don't believe "myself," but i would enjoy hearing the results from the judges.
A few weeks ago I bottled ~ 2.5 gallons of a Chocolate Oatmeal Stout. I don't have the notes in front of me, but I added various amounts of oats to about half of the batch, just like I had done the first time this was ever discussed. Oldeschool actually tasted my beer before I did, and thus far, finds it amazing. We'll set up mutliple double blinds w/ a variety of people and various experiments. As of right now, I think the number of oats per 12oz bottle ranges from 3 to 20. I'm also experimenting w/ oak (dark and lightly kilned) both in and out of the bottle (oat chips going into the bottle, as well as into a secondary). I know this may seem crazy, but I want to experience the failure or success myself. Cheers to the search for brewing knowledge.
swankyswede
Well-Known Member
Agreed on the fining thing - a good way to confirm this would be to add some bentonite to the secondary and taste-test the final beer against the oats. I found a procedure here.
Synovia
Well-Known Member
No, you need evidence to MAKE a claim. I have seen no actual double blinds done here, which means that the easiest explanation is psychosomatic.
Agreed........
swankyswede
Well-Known Member
Actually, evidence is needed to both make and break claims, and evidence SO FAR points to oats improving the flavor of a porter or stout when added in bottles.
Not to say it can't swing the other way at some point in the future. It's a funny thing, the scientific process...
NorCalAngler
Well-Known Member
I won't have a brew ready for a few weeks, but I'll give this a shot on one or two of my bottles.
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Can't wait to hear the results of this. This has been a very interesting thread. As an extract/specialty grains brewer I make a porter that I am extremely proud of and everyone that has tasted it cannot believe it is a extract/specialty grains. I have been thinking though, that I would like to add flaked barley to it to make it a little smoother. Now, since flaked barley must be mashed, and I don't mash, I wonder if this could work the same way??? Add some flaked barley directly to the bottles. Any thoughts? Defintely post results soon.
maskednegator
Well-Known Member
Saying that you need evidence to break a claim that has zero evidence supporting it in the same sentence that says the scientific process is great is simply the height of irony.
I have a 12 foot dong. Provide evidence to the contrary, or accept my claim as fact!
NorCalAngler
Well-Known Member
Well if you have seen it and your buddy has seen it (weird, but keeping with the scenario stated in this thread) then it's a lot different than making a claim without any second-hand verification. What we have is a perceived difference in outcome across multiple people without a scientific explanation or verification.
If you need to burn your hand to know the fire is hot then why not try it for yourself. Once we get enough people making the same claim we can start to uncover the scientific explanation.
swankyswede
Well-Known Member
Agreed!
All I'm saying, maskednegator, is that as per the scientific process, a result is published, people attempt to duplicate the result, and explanation follows. Peer review and open-mindedness to new things, not blind adherence to a previous dogma, are what advance all the sciences - including brewing. A lab recently discovered a new element. That doesn't mean they rush out an immediately throw it on every periodic table in every classroom across the world. Their result has to be duplicated in a different lab first, so in effect, peer review keeps them from making crap up.
As for the oat flakes, we have several people reporting an improvement in flavor when they are added in the bottles - evidence pointing to a particular result, but not proof. Proof is when the effect has been explained. Now it's up to the peer review process to duplicate and try to explain what's going on.
Now, RDWHAHB!
OP
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oldschool
Well-Known Member
We did a double blind, you must have missed it. Therefore, we have EVIDENCE of it working. We dont' have a laboratory full of instruments just our tasters with unmarked glasses. Howevery there is no evidence of it NOT working. There are several people that said they were going to try it, including "flyangler" that is going to experiment with his newly trained bjcp judges. I'm waiting on his findings.
maskednegator
Well-Known Member
This:
Is not a worthwhile double blind, as there was no control group. A double blind test would have to either have a control group comparing two un-oated beers, or have to have 3 glasses (1 from one group, 2 from the other) to test to see if one can identify a difference when there is none to be identified. On top of all that, you would have to do this individually, without discussion for there to be any merit to this experiment.
