Dark beer probems

So I've got several AG batches under my belt, and I'm looking for a little guidance from you experts!

Lighter ales (Centennial Blonde & a couple IPA's) have come out delicious, I love them.

I did one (extract) stout last winter, and I just kegged a brown ale this past weekend. The stout had a kind of acidic taste to it, and not as much body as I wanted. The initial tastes of the nut brown are a little better on the body side, but it has a similar acidity to it.

It's Lil' Sparky's Nut Brown recipe, roughly. Here is the recipe:

Ingredients
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.6 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 8.5 %
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 8.5 %
0.50 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4.3 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.1 %
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50%] (60 min) Hops 14.7 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00%] (15 min) Hops 8.1 IBU
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) Yeast-Ale

Mash Profile
Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Mash Grain Weight: 11.75 lb
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
Sparge Water: 4.21 gal

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 14.69 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F 60 min

My mash temp on this brown was a little lower than I wanted, it was right around 152 to start, and finished about 149. Would having a higher Mash temp give it more body?

I've looked over Palmer's book, and tried to nail it down, but I'm wondering if it isn't a water problem. One thing Palmer says is:

"If you are making a Stout or perhaps a mellow dark ale or lager, one thing you can do to take some of the bite out of the dark grains is to add them later in the mash. Add the Black Patent or Roasted Barley during the last 10 minutes before you sparge. This is one means of coping with soft water (low in carbonates) when making dark beers. Saving the acidic malts until the end will reduce their acidifying effect on the mash."

I'm having trouble figuring out exactly the bicarbonate level, etc in our water, too.

Here is the link to the water report, I downloaded it from this page

http://www.loudounwater.org/water/quality/report.cfm?pl1=4&pl2=1

Thanks for any input!

That's the same "Brewer's Useless" water report I get. You can call them and ask for the specifics, but will most likely need to send a sample out to ward labs.
Ca, SO4, Mg, NA, and Cl are the chemicals you'd need to use BRewater3.0 so I'd think those the the ones you'd want from your report.

The mash temp will change the profile of the beer. At higher temps, you get more unfermentable sugars than at lower temps, so you end up with a heavier bodied beer if you mash higher (lower alcohol content, but more body).

Yeah, that 149 mash temp is definitely a bit low. Mashing at 152-154 will make your wort a bit less fermentable and you'll have a bit more body. The other thing I would try is to change your yeast. Notty is voracious and has high attenuation so it will ferment much dryer. I also think it gives your beer a slightly tart finish which is the acidity you're describing. Try a different strand like wyeast 1028 london ale or 1099 whitbread.

What you are describing, good results with lighter beers and a sharp acidity with darker beers, pretty much pinpoints residual alkalinity as the problem.

What you have there is a water quality report, you need a water analysis. I can download the water quality report but have to call or email for the analysis. They have a new one every year (same time as I get the quality report in the mail) but I keep having to ask for the analysis. I always get it back like an hour after emailing, so obviously they have the PDF ready and just don't put it online.

I recommend figuring out your water and using chalk to get the RA right for darker beers.

It is true that you can avoid the effect of dark grains on the mash pH by mashing them for a shorter time at the end. An alternate approach would be to steep them in your sparge water. Again though, I think it is just plain easier to get the RA right and mash everything.

From the little I can tell from your water reports, looks like you are using surface water which is going to be fairly soft, which is why your stout was somewhat acidic. As for the body, I'd look at the mash temp to help with that as mentioned. If your city can't get you a water analysis report then you should look into sending a sample to ward lab. I love the report I got back from them (They emailed me a PDF as soon as they were done, then sent me the hard copy)

Thanks for the input; I thought Notty might be a little too efficient, too. Would anyone recommend either S-04 or S-05 for a simple brown ale? I tend to like the ease of dry yeast rather than liquid. I e-mailed the water Co. to get some better info on the water composition, it is from the local river here. Do you all have a good reference about what to do to adjust residual alkalinity? Is Palmer pretty comprehensive for that? Thanks again for the perspectives!

eggraid101 said:

Thanks for the input; I thought Notty might be a little too efficient, too. Would anyone recommend either S-04 or S-05 for a simple brown ale? I tend to like the ease of dry yeast rather than liquid. I e-mailed the water Co. to get some better info on the water composition, it is from the local river here. Do you all have a good reference about what to do to adjust residual alkalinity? Is Palmer pretty comprehensive for that? Thanks again for the perspectives!

Click to expand...

if you use palmer's spreadsheet, you'll get the info you need on RA. It'll vary with your estimated beer color. Of note for dark beers and soft water, don't adjust your water above an RA of 250, no matter what the spreadsheet says....you'll overshoot the pH you're looking to hit (too high).

You could take a water sample to a fish store and have them test pH, general hardness and carbonate hardness.

Or hell, just ask them. water chemistry is important in many species of fish, so a good fish store (not PetCo, etc) should know the local water from the tap. They can at least tell you if there's a lot, or not much, in the way of bicarbonates.

If they sell saltwater fish too, they'll likely know a bit about the calcium and magnesium levels since these are important for corals and the algae on live rocks.

eggraid101 said:

Would anyone recommend either S-04 or S-05 for a simple brown ale?

Click to expand...

If you're aiming for a British style brown, go for S-04 which will give it a bit more maltiness. The S-05 is the chico strain so it will be more citrusy, have more neurtral finish and will accentuate hops a bit more. Both would work but would give you different beers. If you can, split a batch in two and try each strain to see which one you like best.

Good call with splitting the batch. I think I may like the S-04, too bad I thought of that a little too late.