Toppling Goliath pseudoSue - Can you clone it?

Someone who has access to this beer should degas a sample and take a hydro reading so we can figure out OG by using the ABV. Would be a good place to start

Interested to see how this turns out. TG is amazing stuff, glad we get it here in Madison once in a while. The golden promise is a good start i think. All of their single hop beers seem to have the same malt backbone.

skibb said:

Someone who has access to this beer should degas a sample and take a hydro reading so we can figure out OG by using the ABV. Would be a good place to start

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I have 5 more bottles so I will do that next time I open one...probably this weekend.

Braufessor said:

my thoughts exactly in regard to the Golden Promise.

I like the idea of the mash hops too..... no idea if they do that or not, but it is a possible way of getting more hops in, without filling your wort up with leaf hops. I have not tried this - any advice?

I will go do some "recon" this weekend and see what I can find.

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So the theory with mash hops is that the wort temp extracts some hops falvors that cling to some type of molecule or something and stay through the entire boil. It's supposed to add a decent amount of flavor. Mitch Steele wrote about it in Nov. 2013's Zymurgy and talked about how they use it in the Enjoy By.

My understanding is that you should use a good amount, like 3 or 4 oz's of leaf hops ideally. It also has the added effect of working like rice hulls so the mash runs better.

My friend has a nanobrewery and he uses mash hops in his double IPA and swears by it. Not sure about his, but Enjoy By is a fantastic example by itself that exemplifies why this technique is relevant.

on the first page of this post i mentioned i did the same grain bill as ZD, missed my OG by 9 points and final gravity was 1.017 or something close using london ale. heres a pic of the real deal and mine. like i said i tried the ZD clone recipe but changed the heck out of the hop schedule and came out way closer to psudosue.. i did a whirlpool hop @ 140degrees with 1oz citra..most of the ZD hop additions stayed the same just added more..did a 2.5 oz dry hop for 7 days..


edit...damn these phone pics are always sideways..lol

How close was it?

Subscribed, love this beer and want to know who these turned out.

Samples from my split batch (04 and 05 yeast) taste amazing at this point. It'll be a little while until I can do a final judging as I've decided to bottle both batches. I will start the dry hop on the 05 batch soon, and the 04 batch has a couple days left before cold crashing and bottling. I think I have a connection here on HBT (in this thread) who can get me a bottle of Sue so I can do an actual comparison. In the meantime, anybody able to get that de-gassed gravity sample?

I'll shop around this week for a 6 pack and send you one also if needed. Thanks

Forgot to post but i did a room temp hydro reading of two bottle samples and got 1.016 on both of them. The abv is 5.8% so someone can do the math for the og.

dbrulet said:

Forgot to post but i did a room temp hydro reading of two bottle samples and got 1.016 on both of them. The abv is 5.8% so someone can do the math for the og.

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Good to know! Puts it at 1.060 then.

I could definitely see that 1.016 - it is a pretty sweet/rich beer.

Month+ wait before there will be more bottles at the taproom when I checked a couple days ago.

I have a bunch of citra, including a pound of leaf that I need to use up, so this will be on my "to brew" list in the next two weeks.

1.060 to 1.016 is 72% apparent attenuation. I have my doubts that 05 is the right yeast here, as it would likely over-attenuate. I'm still thinking that 1968 or 04 fermented low is the way to go.

Adaman05 said:

1.060 to 1.016 is 72% apparent attenuation. I have my doubts that 05 is the right yeast here, as it would likely over-attenuate. I'm still thinking that 1968 or 04 fermented low is the way to go.

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Yup, 1968 is what I used and mashed at 152-153 and that brought my FG to 1.017

poislb said:

Yup, 1968 is what I used and mashed at 152-153 and that brought my FG to 1.017

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It looks like mashing kind of high is the way to go, given the descriptions of the mouthfeel and the FG. I mashed at 154 for my attempt.

Adaman05 said:

1.060 to 1.016 is 72% apparent attenuation. I have my doubts that 05 is the right yeast here, as it would likely over-attenuate. I'm still thinking that 1968 or 04 fermented low is the way to go.

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I doubt that is an English Yeast. I know a lot of breweries use them but by taste I just don't think it fits. If you see the email below I think it is even less likely that it is an English yeast. The only direction from the brewer is to use S-05.

Gear101 said:

So I emailed them the other day, this is what I got back. I copied and paste Adams clone and sent it to them, directing them to this thread. I did put the S-05 and wrote a note saying that I might get some yeast out of one of their bottles.
................


Good call on harvesting some yeast, as we usually leave plenty in our beer and as you know it is never filtered or pasteurized . S-05 however would be an excellent choice (and better IMO) and you will not risk the little nasty’s that live in a lot of draft facets. That is a great recipe you have, and I would like to try it myself!

Although we are pretty open on most of our ingredients and hops used in our beers, we guard the pseudoSue pretty closely!

Good luck brewing and cheers!

Clark Lewey

TG Chief
.......

I guess I don't blame them, if I worked hard to create a beer that was going over good, I might not help out. But it was nice of him to get back to me.

Cheers

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Of course, there is a chance that he is simply recommending the wrong thing because s-05 will be close enough. I'd probably start with 1272. As for the 1.016 and attenuation, well, there are a lot of ways to maintain residual sugars. In the same vein as Zombie dust and a few other well known Citra beers, some Munich added to the recipe might be a good start. There is also the chance that it is just mashed high. Or, that the yeast is temp controlled specifically to avoid attenuating too far.

TG is known for pretty intense yeast control. For their dorothy's lager, they make a steam beer with an ale yeast by raising the temp gradually over the period of days/hours to get the cleanest flavor possible.

I would go with Clark's advice and the general character of the beer and use american yeast. Again, I'm not saying that english yeast can't make a good APA or IPA. I am simply saying I don't think it will make PseudoSue.

I am going to be trying this clone in the next week or so (weather permitting). It has been awhile since I tried it last, but I have a feeling there is more wheat in the recipe. I think I will omit the dextrose and double the white wheat. I may also lower the Crystal addition a bit.

I am also a bit worried about the 180 degree hopstand. The earlier hop additions should put you close to 40 IBUs. The massive hopstand will jack the IBU well above 50 (although it will be perceived as lower). However, at 180 degrees I fear the bitterness might still be a bit too much. Would a hopstand below 150 degrees work better? Any thoughts from those that have had the beer or brewed this clone recently?

Thanks for the work on this clone though!

Finally an update!

I just got around to bottling my 05 batch and it tasted incredible flat. Attached is a picture (uncarbed of course). Definitely too light in color. Didn't really taste bitter at all and it was incredibly flavorful at the end...just like I remember Sue being. It's been forever since I've had it, so I can't really compare yet. But this tasted amazing flat. Better than the 04. You win, Herky

So I was actually able to procure 4 bottles today in Madison. I was excited and popped my version of it after only 1 day in the bottle to compare. The Sue is in the goblet. Color wasn't as off as I thought it was. Sue tastes better, though mine is not nearly done conditioning. There's a breadiness to Sue that's not coming across in mine, which is interesting since I used a lot of Golden Promise. Aroma seems dead on. Mine is drier, which is to be expected since it finished at 1.010 and Sue finishes at 1.016. Damn, Sue is so good. It looks like mashing high with American yeast is the way to go so it finishes sweet. Mine is a touch too bitter as well.

Adaman05 said:

So I was actually able to procure 4 bottles today in Madison. I was excited and popped my version of it after only 1 day in the bottle to compare. The Sue is in the goblet. Color wasn't as off as I thought it was. Sue tastes better, though mine is not nearly done conditioning. There's a breadiness to Sue that's not coming across in mine, which is interesting since I used a lot of Golden Promise. Aroma seems dead on. Mine is drier, which is to be expected since it finished at 1.010 and Sue finishes at 1.016. Damn, Sue is so good. It looks like mashing high with American yeast is the way to go so it finishes sweet. Mine is a touch too bitter as well.

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Scratch that. Upon more tasting, I don't think my version is more bitter after all. I just think it lacks the sweetness and breadiness in Sue.

This is what I brewed, racking to secondary today. I grabbed a couple bottles last night and tastes dead on out of the fermenter, albeit a little "fresh". I will save a bottle to side by side test when dry hopped and carbed. This last batch of Psuedo doesn't have the haziness of the last few I've had it is clear enough to read a paper through. I don't know whats up with that?


Recipe: Psuedo Sue 2.0
Brewer: Door Creek Brewery
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.41 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.28 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.082 SG
Estimated Color: 9.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 87.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 84.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU

14 lbs Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 72.7 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.8 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.9 %
12.0 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.9 %
12.0 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 6 3.9 %
8.0 oz Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 7 2.6 %
1.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - First Wort 20.0 min Hop 8 19.4 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 28.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 21.1 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 11.5 IBUs
5.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 12 6.2 IBUs
2.0 pkg London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) [124. Yeast 13 -
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge

1 min hop addition is actually a 45 min hop stand added when wort cools to 180

Fermented @ 64

I know this recipe will give some higher #'s than what we're shooting for, but my efficiency is actually closer to 60-65% so adjustments were made to get close and my actual measured OG was 1.062 and FG 1.015.

WiscoBrewer said:

This is what I brewed, racking to secondary today. I grabbed a couple bottles last night and tastes dead on out of the fermenter, albeit a little "fresh". I will save a bottle to side by side test when dry hopped and carbed. This last batch of Psuedo doesn't have the haziness of the last few I've had it is clear enough to read a paper through. I don't know whats up with that?


Recipe: Psuedo Sue 2.0
Brewer: Door Creek Brewery
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.41 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.28 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.082 SG
Estimated Color: 9.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 87.0 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 84.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU

14 lbs Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 72.7 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.8 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.9 %
12.0 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.9 %
12.0 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 6 3.9 %
8.0 oz Carafoam (2.0 SRM) Grain 7 2.6 %
1.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - First Wort 20.0 min Hop 8 19.4 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 28.9 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [13.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 10 21.1 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 11.5 IBUs
5.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 12 6.2 IBUs
2.0 pkg London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) [124. Yeast 13 -
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 15 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge

1 min hop addition is actually a 45 min hop stand added when wort cools to 180

I know this recipe will give some higher #'s than what we're shooting for, but my efficiency is actually closer to 60-65% so adjustments were made to get close and my actual measured OG was 1.062 and FG 1.015.

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Yeah, looks like that's the Zombie Dust recipe with the hop schedule just being in different proportions.

Also noticed that this batch of Sue is really clear.

Yes, the Zombie Dust recipe was used as the flavor profile is very similar. However, I substituted two row for golden promise, added white wheat, bumped up the hop burst schedule, and added the large hop stand as I think these all attribute to the distinct flavor it has.

I'm not claiming to have unlocked the code or to have a completely original clone recipe, because I don't and I did combine a lot of ideas from this thread, just sharing what I did and how it's coming out.

WiscoBrewer said:

Yes, the Zombie Dust recipe was used as the flavor profile is very similar. However, I substituted two row for golden promise, added white wheat, bumped up the hop burst schedule, and added the large hop stand as I think these all attribute to the distinct flavor it has.

I'm not claiming to have unlocked the code or to have a completely original clone recipe, because I don't and I did combine a lot of ideas from this thread, just sharing what I did and how it's coming out.

Click to expand...

That recipe looks awesome. 87 IBU! Please keep us updated!

I think the 87 IBU's is misleading, the first wort hops probably don't give it 19 IBU's more like 10-15 and the hop stand adds a lot more hop flavor rather than bitterness if any. I don't know this to be factual, but it certainly doesn't taste like 87 IBU's more like 60-70. The hop flavor from the big hop stand is incredible, this was the first time using this technique and it will be used on all my IPA's from now on!

I think when finished it's going to be very close. The side by side done when racking to secondary was tasted by two others besides myself and we all agreed it tasted right on with the exception of the hop "freshness" and less aroma due to not being dry hopped yet. I will be kegging it next weekend and will do a blind test with the same guys once ready.

WiscoBrewer said:

I think the 87 IBU's is misleading, the first wort hops probably don't give it 19 IBU's more like 10-15 and the hop stand adds a lot more hop flavor rather than bitterness if any. I don't know this to be factual, but it certainly doesn't taste like 87 IBU's more like 60-70. The hop flavor from the big hop stand is incredible, this was the first time using this technique and it will be used on all my IPA's from now on!

I think when finished it's going to be very close. The side by side done when racking to secondary was tasted by two others besides myself and we all agreed it tasted right on with the exception of the hop "freshness" and less aroma due to not being dry hopped yet. I will be kegging it next weekend and will do a blind test with the same guys once ready.

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Yeah who knows what calculated IBUS mean. we all depend on them but when you actually put all the malt and hops together and boil it for 60 or 120 minutes, who knows what the IBUS are unless you get it tested.

I just dropped in my second dry hop addition and grabbed a sample of course. I first noticed that the color may be a tid bit dark, I'll know for sure later, and after tasting noticed something else. Besides the latest Psuedo Sue being ALOT clearer than in the past, I also noticed there was an onion flavor that I didn't remember either. Now, I did notice this onion flavor right away, but wasn't sure if I was remembering it right so I didn't mention it earlier. After tasting the clone tonight, I think that the onion flavor is new to the latest batch of the real thing, because I got none of that in the clone and it tastes exactly like I remember it from the past. I like what I remember a lot better than the latest batch and am wondering what may of changed that would both clear it up and give it the onion flavor. My first thought is a fermentation temperature change?

Hmmmmmm..... I will have to check on that. I have heard of onion flavor with citra before. I did notice the last batch was very clear (on tap) compared to the hazy gold/orange it usually is. But, I did not notice any "onion" in the 6 pints I drank the other night at the taproom...... Be a shame if I had to run back up there and do some tasting again

Picked up a Growler in Hudson WI yesterday. I unscientifically estimate SRM at about 11...and is 16 oz of Citra too much for an 8 gal batch? What was the balance like in your recipe?

Shawn-of-the-Dead said:

Picked up a Growler in Hudson WI yesterday. I unscientifically estimate SRM at about 11...and is 16 oz of Citra too much for an 8 gal batch? What was the balance like in your recipe?

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It was a 10 gallon batch, and I don't think it was too much. Actually, if I had to do it over again, I would use less in the hopstand and I would use additions at 15, 10, 5, flameout... similar to the ZD recipe.

I was at their tasting room Saturday and they had a Sue with Belgian yeast that was damn tasty as well.

WiscoBrewer said:

also noticed there was an onion flavor that I didn't remember either.

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Yes! I live about an hour from Decorah, and Sue is available to me on tap nearly consistently. The latest batches with the new crop of hops have a vegetal character that did not used to exist. This is probably the same onion thing you are picking up. I think it is due to the new hop crop, but their new brewing system may play a role as well.

Having a bottle of the latest batch. Tastes as good as ever to me. I maybe can detect some of the "onion" being described, but it sure is tasty. Again, this batch is pretty clear too. I'm not sure what to do with my clone to make it taste like this. I've brewed a lot of zombie dust, as well as my take on this, obviously. In the long run, nothing comes close to this. I would love to know the source of their Citra.

I had a bottle of the latest batch last night as well, it didn't have the onion flavor this time, just straight up citra. It is still clearer than in the past but not quite as clear as the last batch.

I have had mine kegged for a week and a half now. My attempt came out darker, but tastes fairly close and smells right on target. It definitely lacks the "juiciness" of the real thing, and I can taste the melanoiden and caramel more in my attempt. I think the next attempt, I will eliminate the melanoiden and use a lower L caramel. Also a larger hop stand and less first wort hops.

It might be worth a try to email them and ask where they source their citra, they guard their recipe well, but may be willing to give up their source.

I've heard from friends locally that the new batch of bottles is better. It may have been that first batch with new hops and/or the new system that was different.

Adaman05 said:

Having a bottle of the latest batch. Tastes as good as ever to me. I maybe can detect some of the "onion" being described, but it sure is tasty. Again, this batch is pretty clear too. I'm not sure what to do with my clone to make it taste like this. I've brewed a lot of zombie dust, as well as my take on this, obviously. In the long run, nothing comes close to this. I would love to know the source of their Citra.

Click to expand...

What would you change next batch?

doublehaul said:

What would you change next batch?

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Probably add mash hops, cut back on the FWH, and go heavier with <5 minute additions and an even more massive whirlpool. Also mash high so it finishes at 1.016. Target an OG of 1.060.

I guess I meant to say, would you change anything, not what would you change. I was wondering though - what does the dextrose do for the recipe? That surprised me I thought it was generally used just to lower the final gravity. I am going looking at brewing this soon - looks great! I have a bunch of citra I want to use, but I've never had psuedosue. Thanks.

In my opinion, I don't think TGB uses dextrose in this recipe. It would dry it out and you'd lose the "sweet/juiciness" this beer has, which I believe Adam was alluding to in the previous page describing his last attempt. I'm thinking this is going to end up being an illusively simple malt bill, using their yeast strain. I will continue using the London ESB until we get the malt bill closer though.

Something along these lines is what I'm thinking, however, I'm still debating eliminating the Vienna or Munich entirely.
Note; The 0.0min hop stand / whirlpool is actually a 45min HS / Wrpl added when the wort cools to 180. Also the same efficiency, or lack of, adjustment that I used prior is still in effect (10 gallon igloo / batch sparge). On my system this will finish @ 1.060.

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Psuedo Sue 2.1
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 8.41 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.28 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.25 gal
Estimated OG: 1.081 SG
Estimated Color: 6.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 66.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 84.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
15 lbs Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 83.3 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.3 %
1 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3 5.6 %
8.0 oz Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 4 2.8 %
2.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 28.7 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 21.0 IBUs
3.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 17.3 IBUs
5.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 0.0 m Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
2.0 pkg London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) [124. Yeast 9 -
2.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [12.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 18 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 25.70 qt of water at 164.5 F 154.0 F 60 min.