First Lager... Couple Questions

I'm planning for my first lager next week and I've got a few quick questions: I've done some research on both these items and have an idea but would like some direct feedback on my plans:

Question 1: Fermentation Temperatures. This seems like one of the most contested questions on this forum, but I'll go ahead and see if any consensus comes from this... I do not have a temperature controlled lagering fridge. However, I have a closet in my unheated garage that maintains a very steady 44-46F, with the colder temps coming at night obviously. I could attempt to add a light-bulb to the closet and see what that will do to temps, but I was hoping to just use this as my primary fermentation location as is. It's a bit colder than desired, but will I run into any major issues during primary fermentation at these temps? My plan is 21 days in primary, Diacetyl Rest for one day, then into the fridge at 34F for 1 month lager.

Question 2: Pitching Temperatures. My city tap water is currently running at 48F, which will allow me to chill my wort to just about primary fermentation temps prior to pitching. I've read some conflicting opinions on whether I should pitch at primary temps, or at room temp and then cool to primary temp after the yeast have begun to reproduce. Any thoughts?

BTW, thanks in advance. The knowledge here is amazing and I'm stoked to have found this forum.:rockin:

HoyaSaxa,

Go to the website of the maker of your yeast and check the temp range of your yeast. Historically, lagers were done in the winter, and in Europe, temps were cold to freezing.

There is a temperature range limit on the cold side where the yeast go dormant. If, for instance, your temp range in the 40's is cold and below the normal range of preferred temps, but not to the point of dormancy, your yeast will slow down. If that is the case, you need to double or even triple your yeast pitch so that the fermentation doesn't take too long.

Cheers,
David

As for your first question, I think you should be ok. I usually ferment all my lagers around 45 degrees or so. I would do a diacetyl rest for 3-4 days instead of only 1 day. Make sure it is all absorbed by the yeast before moving on to secondary. If it isn't after a day, you will be out of luck.

I pitch all my lagers at room temp, allow to start fermenting at room temp, then move to about 45. Therefore, I cool my wort to about 75 or so then pitch. You could pitch at primary temps, but it will take longer for the yeast to start to work. I like to make sure the yeast is cranking before I cool it down.

I like to ferment low to mid 50's personally, but I think mid to high 40's will work OK for most yeasts. Just look at the yeast specs from the manufacturer and try to stick to the middle of their recommendations.

I think it'll be ok in that closet. As it's your first lager, I'm going to give you the obligatory make sure to use the mr. malty yeast pitching rate calculator and pitch the right ammount of yeast. Especially if it's a bit on the colder side, those yeasts are going to want to have a lot of their friends around.

That might be a little cold, but should be OK. It'll take longer.

My understanding is that you don't need the diacetyl rest if you pitch cold as the diacetyl doesn't form at cold temps, but I could be wrong. Take a sample and if you can taste it you'll need the rest. It's up to you if you can't taste it

I pitched my latest lager at 54 after the chiller was able to bring the temp down enough without having to wait. I was doing a partial boil and the tap temp was close to 40, cooling the wort to around 65 left me at just the right temp. I also used a 1L starter, slightly less than Mr. Malty's calc, but close enough. It is happily fermenting at 48 and is slowing down now after a week but still bubbling.

Thanks for the replies. I was able to add a small light bulb to the closet and I've been observing a consistent 51-54F. Obviously the ambient temps will affect this room, but with the location and amount of thermal mass surrounding this closet (back of two car garage on 40 x 40 concrete pad.

I just began my starter, hopefully it will be ready to go by tomorrow evening. Ideally I'd have 2+ days, but tomorrow is my only chance to brew for a few weeks.

I think I will pitch at room temp to make sure I get a good yeast propagation before I move it to the closet. As I understand it, this will necessitate a longer diacetyl rest of 3-4 days at room temp prior to lagering?

Ideally, you should pitch at your fermentation temps, assuming you have enough yeast. People pitch warm to encourage yeast growth, then drop the temps down so that the bulk of fermentation occurs at the proper lager yeast temp.

ghpeel said:

Ideally, you should pitch at your fermentation temps, assuming you have enough yeast. People pitch warm to encourage yeast growth, then drop the temps down so that the bulk of fermentation occurs at the proper lager yeast temp.

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Exactly. Or rather, ideally you would pitch just under fermentation temperatures and let the temperature rise up to the lower end of the optimum fermentation temperature. The key is to pitch enough yeast- the reason for the warmer pitch is because it is supposed to help compensate for underpitching. I don't think this is a great idea, because sometimes it works well but sometimes the bulk of fermentation is over before the beer even gets to 48 degrees. (or whatever the desired fermentation temperature is).

I've always had the best luck with fermenting at the bottom range of the yeast strain's optimum temperature range.

Okay, so I pitched a very healthy 1800 ml starter of Wyeast 2007 Pils Lager yeast at around 60F. The starter was at high krausen and bubbling up a storm.

I missed my OG a little bit (1.046 instead of 1.051), and I'm not sure what happened exactly, but it looks like my mash efficiency was lower this time around than last (66% vs. 71% on my first AG batch).

I placed the fermenter directly in my cold closet at 53F and observed active fermentation about 8 hours after pitching. The closet has been between 48 and 54 (with the occasionally spike down to 45F at night). It's not ideal, but the temp gauge on the fermenter has stayed stable right at around 50/52 F despite the ambient swings between day and night.

It is still bubbling away (not as strong as an ale ferment, but a good bubble every 5-10 second). I'm in day 4 of primary today.

My plan was 14 day in primary, 2-3 day D-rest, with a 30 day lager at 33F. Any reason I should wait longer in primary given the relative health of the ferment?

Thanks!

Congrats on the short lag time. That's a great start for a lager.

Lager dogma says that you should do the D-rest when you are 8-10 or so points away from your final gravity. So if you anticipate 1.012 final gravity, then do your D-rest when you hit 1.020-1.022. That will probably happen BEFORE 14 days if you had a good strong start. I'd check the gravity tomorrow maybe and see how you are doing and how close you are to 1.020 or so.

Can you check the temp of the fermenting beer? I've seen active yeast drive temps 15 degrees higher than ambient. It's important to know the core temperature so that if the temp gets out of control you can take corrective action, and know why you might have off flavors.

Regarding mash efficiency, compacted grains during mashing and draining off your wort (lautering) to quickly can lower efficiency.

Keep the updates coming,

I've got no way to check the core temperature of the beer without cracking it and exposing it to oxygen. I do have a temp strip on the fermenter that has generally done a good job of letting me know when the beer is above ambient. For example, I can clearly see with some of my ales when the primary fermentation is complete as the temp strip will drop from low 70s down to mid-60s even though ambient in the room is 65.

It is certainly possible the "core" temp is higher than the temp strip reading, but I doubt it is more than 2-3 degrees higher given my experience with temp strip and the lower fermentation speed of the lager.

As for mash efficiency, its only my second AG batch. I batch sparged both, but used a much higher first sparge volume on this batch than previously. Also, I'm still learning BeerSmith, so I could have just been off on the first batch as well since I never took a pre-boil OG reading? Not sure. Anyway FG on this should be around 1011-1013.

The temp strip should be good enough. Don't worry about opening the fermenter since the fermentation is producing CO2, which lays on the top and creates a barrier against O2.
Sounds like your on your way to a good fermentation.

By the way, WYeast makes a very popular Lager yeast called Bohemia, which ferments from 50-65F. I use it at 65 for ales, which gives a nice crispness to the beer.


Good luck

I must admit I am very surprised to find so many conflicting opinions regarding lagering versus the consistant info I find regarding ales.

For primary fermentation (first six days) I hear many different ideas for temps. Some do the first week of active fermentation at warmer temps like 60-62 (I did). Some do not.

Many people use such cold temperatures, when the yeast makers recommendations are usually 50-55degF. It seems to be agreed that going below this temperature slows down your fermentation and forces a longer lagering time period.

Opinions please?

I agree with what Yooper posted earlier. Ideally, chill to just below your target fermentation temp, pitch the yeast, then aerate it (aerating when it's colder yields more dissolved O2). Then let it slowly rise up to fermentation temp.

There is more than one way to do the fermentation and lagering. One way is to get all of the fermentation done including D-rest, then just chill it (relatively quickly) and let it condition. In this case you're not technically 'lagering' because the yeast usually drop-out when you chill it quickly. But the yeast were (hopefully!) finished with the job anyway. Another way is to slowly chill the beer so the yeast don't drop-out and let it 'lager'. One has a longer primary and the other has a longer secondary.

Kaiser's Fermenting Lagers page is a good read imo.

Everybody has certain restrictions and have to devise a plan that will work with their system. In my case, slowly chilling down to lager temps is kind of a PITA. My lager fridge usually has another lager fermenting a couple of weeks behind (so I can't drop the temp there, wouldn't get much below 40* anyway) and my keezer is full of properly carbonated serving beers (so dropping the temp slowly there has complications). So I just let the yeast do the entire job at fermentation and D-rest temps, then chill it quickly and let it condition a month or more.

MikeRoBrew1 said:

For primary fermentation (first six days) I hear many different ideas for temps. Some do the first week of active fermentation at warmer temps like 60-62 (I did). Some do not.

Opinions please?

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I've been brewing a while, and I've NEVER once heard anyone say to ferment a lager at 60-62. Everyone I've ever talked to brewing about says they follow the yeast manufacturer's instructions. And I can't think of a single lager strain that would be recommended above 58 degrees. Are you sure your source said "60-62" and not "50-52"? At above the mid-50's, you'd get a very fruity beer, probably with some sulfur notes, using a lager yeast.

Here's an example on information available from the yeast manufacturer, from Wyeast's website:

YEAST STRAIN: 2206 | Bavarian Lager
Back to Yeast Strain List

Used by many German breweries to produce rich, full-bodied, malty beers, this strain is a good choice for bocks and dopplebocks. A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.

Origin:
Flocculation: medium-high
Attenuation: 73-77%
Temperature Range: 46-58° F (8-14° C)
Alcohol Tolerance: approximately 9% ABV


Styles:
Classic Rauchbier
Doppelbock
Eisbock
Maibock/Helles Bock
Munich Dunkel
Oktoberfest/Märzen
Schwarzbier (Black Beer)
Traditional Bock

Yooper said:

I've been brewing a while, and I've NEVER once heard anyone say to ferment a lager at 60-62.

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You know, I think this advice comes from lager brewers who are trying to get rapid yeast growth once they pitch. I suppose if you are under-pitching, its better to pitch a little warm to get the yeasties multiplying fast, but then you are gambling that you'll get the temp of the wort dropped down to proper lager fermentation temps by the time the yeast really start consuming the sugars.

This seems to me to be less than ideal. If you pitch enough yeast, then you can start fermentation at the proper temps and never have to worry about your yeast fermenting at 60F that first day.

I am using WL833 http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/strains_wlp833.html
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 48-55°F

I'm guess I heard that on the forums somewhere although I can't the post now (naturally). I did the first week at 60-62. Doh!
I have been keeping it at 53-55degF since then (one month).

It does not smell fruity now, but time will tell. I was thinking of racking to the keg sometime and letting it lager there for 3-4 more months at 40-45degF. This way I could get a taste of it as it ages.

Update:

After two weeks primary at 50F and 4 days diacetyl rest at 65F, I transfered to a keg for lagering. FG was a perfect 1.010, and holy schnikies, I must have done something right because:

1) The beer was crystal freakin' clear. I mean I could see straight down into the bucket and pick out the yeast trub through 5 gallons.

2) It smelled and tasted amazing... even prior to lager and CO2.

I'm not even going to wait... I'm brewing another one next weekend to see if I can replicate it... maybe a slightly different recipe, but man, I am excited to try this one. I hope I can make it 4 weeks for the lagering.

HoyaSaxa said:

Update:

After two weeks primary at 50F and 4 days diacetyl rest at 65F, I transfered to a keg for lagering. FG was a perfect 1.010, and holy schnikies, I must have done something right because:

1) The beer was crystal freakin' clear. I mean I could see straight down into the bucket and pick out the yeast trub through 5 gallons.

2) It smelled and tasted amazing... even prior to lager and CO2.

I'm not even going to wait... I'm brewing another one next weekend to see if I can replicate it... maybe a slightly different recipe, but man, I am excited to try this one. I hope I can make it 4 weeks for the lagering.

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Congrats. It's pretty cool when things go right. I also have a lager that is completely clear in the secondary lagering. I pitched cold at 54, fermented cold between 46 and 54, and brought it up for a diacetyl rest even though I don't think it needed it. The gravity when I last checked was 1.012 and I of course tasted the sample and it was crisp and bone dry. All of this done without refrigeration, just a cold winter!

I wish I had a way to force carbonate this so I can taste it as soon as it is done, but I'll have to do the 3 weeks in the bottle.

Keep us posted on the final results.

One thing I like to do with mine is to place the fermenter in a large sterilite tub, then fill it with water to the same level as the young beer. The water around the fermenter will act as a buffer for ambient temp variations. I normally use frozen bottles of water during the day to help keep the water temp where I want it. This has been working like a charm for me!

Use your hydrometer to let you know when you are down to 1.02 if i recall correctly to pull for the rest at 60 degrees.