Clone Attempt (3 Floyds ESB) - Need Opinions

I visited 3 Floyds Brew Pub this weekend and had a pint of their Admiral Lord Nelson ESB. It is an in-house beer only (they won't even fill growlers). I WANT TO MAKE IT. Based on my known variables, how close do you think my recipe will be?

Known Variables:

Style: British Strong Bitter (ESB)
IBU: 58
ABV: 6.8%
Brewery Description: Deep amber ale has a complex malt sweetness and pronounced apricot hoppiness.
Bartender Discussion: All European ingredients using Fuggles hops to give it the flavor and aroma.
Taste & Observations: Deep amber color. Estimate around 15 or 16 SRM. Very well balanced hop & malt with a strong fruity hop aroma.

My Recipe:

11.25 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK - Grain 86.54 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L - Grain 7.69 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine - Grain 3.85 %
0.25 lb Roasted Barley - Grain 1.92 %
1.25 oz Challenger [7.50 %] (60 min)
1.25 oz Fuggles [4.80 %] (30 min)
1.25 oz Fuggles [4.80 %] (15 min)
1.50 oz Fuggles [4.80 %] (5 min)
1 Pkgs British Ale (Wyeast Labs #1098) Yeast-Ale

Estimated Values:
OG: 1.069
FG: 1.017
ABV: 6.79%*
IBU: 58.3*
SRM: 15.4

Have you tried emailing them? Craft breweries are surprisingly willing to give up recipes or at least very close versions that you can tweak from there.

IrregularPulse said:

Have you tried emailing them? Craft breweries are surprisingly willing to give up recipes or at least very close versions that you can tweak from there.

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I just sent an email to the generic email address asking for the brewmaster's email address. I was hoping he would be cool and let me know if I was at least close.

And I just called Nick Floyd @ 3 Floyds and left him a message.

I've never had THAT ESB but lots of these types of beers use Crystal 40 & Crystal 120. You may want to add a small amount of C-120 (maybe half a pound). Then reduce the roasted barley down to an ounce or two or whatever you need to get the SRM range you are looking for. Either way it looks like a solid recipe and should make good beer.

michael.berta said:

I've never had THAT ESB but lots of these types of beers use Crystal 40 & Crystal 120. You may want to add a small amount of C-120 (maybe half a pound). Then reduce the roasted barley down to an ounce or two or whatever you need to get the SRM range you are looking for. Either way it looks like a solid recipe and should make good beer.

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I am trying to minimize sweetness. Does the color rating on the Crystals affect color & flavor?

IrregularPulse said:

Have you tried emailing them? Craft breweries are surprisingly willing to give up recipes or at least very close versions that you can tweak from there.

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I've emailed the many times in an attempt to ask about certain beers. I have never received any sort of response what so ever. I love their beer, but it's total bull they won't even tell you a little about one of their non-bottled brews. LAME!

I had the ESB on tap at Hopleaf the other day. Excellent beer, but I have no idea what a clone would look like.

DocRobinson said:

I am trying to minimize sweetness. Does the color rating on the Crystals affect color & flavor?

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Yes. The darker the color on crystal malts, the more intense the percieved sweetness will be. As you hit the 80 and 120 levels the sweetnes becomes almost raisiny, or plum like with deep caramel and/or toffee. Not super intense, but noticeable. If the beer you had did not have much residual sweetness, they may have gone the route that you went and darkened up more with a a bit of chocolate, special B, black patent, roasted barley, or some such dark malt that is not so sweet rather than a heavy crystal.

I am currently in a similar situation. My project is attempting to replicate Fuller's ESB, which is my benchmark for the style, never having sampled. Floyds' Admiral Lord Nelson. However, I think part of the fun in cloning is attempting to match a beer using one's own taste buds. I certainly would have no expectation of a brewery giving out their recipes.

It's rather like a local restaurant's famous spaghetti sauce, which for years had people writing to the questions column in the paper trying to secure the recipe. Finally, the lady who owned the restaurant wrote an answer to the column, in which she said that they found all the questions flattering, but regarded the recipe as proprietary, part of their family's livelihood. I had to agree, and don't see how this is any different. If a brewery chooses to make information public on the composition of their beer, well and good. If not, that's their business.

Even individuals can be private about recipes. A family acquaintance had a famous pie recipe, which she would gladly share. However, no matter how many people made it, it wasn't -quite- the same. When her daughter inherited her recipes after her death, she (who had the same recipe as everyone else!) discovered that her mother had evidently omitted one ingredient, so that whoever she shared it with wasn't going to have the same results. The kicker was, when I heard what the mysterious missing ingredient was, it ended up being something common like nutmeg (or whatever, been too long ago to remember exactly). I thought to myself- strange that someone wouldn't have experimented around and duplicated it over all those years. But nobody had....

DocRobinson said:

pronounced apricot hoppiness.

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I haven't tried them yet myself, but descriptions of First Gold hops are the only ones that I've seen mention an "apricot" flavor.

rico567 said:

I am currently in a similar situation. My project is attempting to replicate Fuller's ESB, which is my benchmark for the style, never having sampled. Floyds' Admiral Lord Nelson. However, I think part of the fun in cloning is attempting to match a beer using one's own taste buds. I certainly would have no expectation of a brewery giving out their recipes.

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Not trying to hijack, just want to add that I agree. I have never requested an exact recipe, only asked that they tell me more about the beer. They had a pilsner once that was very unique and I wasn't sure if it was a certain style I didn't know about, odd grain, etc. Telling me it's proprietary is one thing, ignoring multiple emails is different.

Zen_Brew said:

Yes. The darker the color on crystal malts, the more intense the percieved sweetness will be. As you hit the 80 and 120 levels the sweetnes becomes almost raisiny, or plum like with deep caramel and/or toffee. Not super intense, but noticeable. If the beer you had did not have much residual sweetness, they may have gone the route that you went and darkened up more with a a bit of chocolate, special B, black patent, roasted barley, or some such dark malt that is not so sweet rather than a heavy crystal.

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This is why I'd only suggest using a small amount for an ESB. I've never had the exact beer in question so I have no idea if they are using it or not.

I agree with a brewery not owing us an exact recipe by any means. It is their lively hood. But in my experience, most are willing to give you a generic grain bill. It'll be up to you to figure out their yeast strain if it's even obtainable, sometimes they'll give you mash temps sometimes not. There is so much more to brewing than a % Grain Bill that they can give that (lots do) and still be confident that not enough people will brew a clone to be worried.
Spaghetti sauce recipes can be cloned by 99% of the population with a recipe, brewing is much smaller scale.

How close did your clone turn out to be? I wanna give this a shot next weekend. Thanks!