Question about Sparging.

I've done a few brews now starting with just extract cits, then kits with adjuncts, and now full recipes with dme and full adjuncts. I now have a recipe that is partial mash.
I have a general question that I don't think I've seen answered in any of the material I have read. (Sorry if this is a stupid question.)
When you do a mash the grain/grist is removed from the mash water and sparged with fresh water.
Why can't the mash water be used for the wort or be used for sparging, surerly it contains a lot of the sugar from the grain.

Read here:http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

Not a stupid question. A lot of terms can get confused when you're first learning.

There are different methods of sparging. I'm just using batch sparging because it's the most simple and requires the least equipment.

You don't really remove the grains from the mash when sparging, you rinse them in place. If trying to do a mini mash using a grain bag, you can just pour off the first wort and add more hot water for the batch sparge.

Hope I've helped.

Right,

So If I have it clear, you soak the malt in a volume of water (around 1 q/lb at 150f) and you sparge all of this. i.e. don't drain or remove the malt before you start sparging. therefore the mashing liquor becomes part of the wort.

I'm off to read palmer again.

The reason I'm askng is that I have aclone recipe that gives directions for Extract, partial and all grain. I'm just trying to decide what to go for.

I also batch sparge. I'll drain the first run wort from the mash into the kettle, then add water (about twice as much water as I used in the mash) at 170F to the mash tun and stir it up. I'll start heating the first run, just to save time. After 30 minutes, I'll drain the second run into the kettle. I may or may not do a third run, it depends on how much is in the kettle.

orfy said:

I've done a few brews now starting with just extract cits, then kits with adjuncts, and now full recipes with dme and full adjuncts. I now have a recipe that is partial mash.
I have a general question that I don't think I've seen answered in any of the material I have read. (Sorry if this is a stupid question.)
When you do a mash the grain/grist is removed from the mash water and sparged with fresh water.
Why can't the mash water be used for the wort or be used for sparging, surerly it contains a lot of the sugar from the grain.

Click to expand...

as scott said, nostupid questions here....

think of it as rinsing the grains w/ water. all your fermentable sugars will come from the extract when doing an extract recipe w/ some grains to steep. those grains just add more body and color to the brew. just steep (soak) the grains for about 45 minutes to an hour in 150 degree water, then sparge (rinse) with 170 degree water into your boil kettle, until you reach a volume of 5 gallons. when i did extract w/ grains, i used a big strainer. once the grains where done steeping, i would put the strainer over the brew kettle, add the grains and grain "tea" to the stariner allowing the tea to go into the kettle. once all the grains are in the strainer, then i start sparging (rinsing) with the sparge water until i could get as high a volume as i could w/out boil over worries (remeber to account for the addition of the extract). remeber, boiling as much of the 5-6 gallons as possible is best for the brew. helps hot break, clarity, and flavor.....
that help?

batch sparging is somewhat less efficient but if you batch sparge then you do drain all your mash water into the kettle (it is part of your wort). You then refill your lauter tun (which is, most likely, also you mash tun - a cooler) and drain again. Now, Papzian suggests that you use the double bucket method to sparge.. in that case then you would have a separate lauter tun and mash tun and when you were done with the mash then you'd transfer your grains into the lauter tun for sparging. However, since most of use use a cooler as a mash tun and then place a false bottom or manifold in it then it also doubles as the lauter tun and, in that case, all you do is drain the mash water out and then refill and drain again until you have the desired wort volume.. this is called batch sparging. Continuous sparging is slightly more efficient and less hassle IMO.. for continuous sparging you adjust the flow of sparge water into the lauter tun to match the outflow of wort into your kettle. 1 qt per minute outflow is the max sparge rate. One last note, sparging should stop if the runnings fall below 1.008 SG.. odds are that you will have all the wort you need by that point anyway (assuming you're not sparging too fast).

david_42 said:

I also batch sparge. I'll drain the first run wort from the mash into the kettle, then add water (about twice as much water as I used in the mash) at 170F to the mash tun and stir it up. I'll start heating the first run, just to save time. After 30 minutes, I'll drain the second run into the kettle. I may or may not do a third run, it depends on how much is in the kettle.

Click to expand...

I've tried batch and fly, and settled on batch as it seems to save me time. I generally do two batch sparges following the first runoff. After the first wort collection I look at how much more wort I need to collect for my target pre-boil volume and just divide that by two for my sparge volumes (as the grains are already saturated and my deadspace is full, I should collect almost all of this water/wort). I do try to avoid leaving any wort in my MLT on the second running since that would mean my second running was unnecessarily dilute.

If I understand the terminology correctly, I fly sparge. I use a phil's sparge arm to sprinkle hot water over the surface of the grain bed. At the same time, I'm draining wort off the bottom of the mash tun. I try to keep enough liquid in the tun to almost cover the grains. I think batch sparging sounds pretty appealing, because of the time factor, but my wife likes the whirlygig sparge arm, and I like hanging around, drinking beer while it sparges, so I'll stick with the fly sparging method.

I think any sparging method that has you disturb the grain bed (transfering grain to another bucket) is a bad idea. The grain bed helps filter some of the grain dust and bitter husk compounds out of the wort. If you disturb that you may introduce some astringent tastes to your beer.

andre the giant said:

I think any sparging method that has you disturb the grain bed (transfering grain to another bucket) is a bad idea. The grain bed helps filter some of the grain dust and bitter husk compounds out of the wort. If you disturb that you may introduce some astringent tastes to your beer.

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Sorry but I have to disagree. You're more likely to extract tannins from the grain when fly sparging than with batch sparging. Let me explain:

When you batch sparge, you still recirculate the first runnings over the grain bed until your wort runs clear, the same as with fly sparge. Once you have drained all the high gravity wort from your mash go ahead and start the boil with this first drain to accomplish mash out. Now you infuse your grain with sparge water, stir and let it sit for 10 minutes. This accomlishes mash-out for the remaining wort and disolves most of the remaining sugars creating a lower gravity wort. When draining this, you recirculate it again til it runs clear. Both these drainings will be slightly acidic from the grain. This prevents extraction of the astringent tannins.

It is the ph of the mash that prevents tannin extraction not temperature or agitation; otherwise, a decotation mash would not be possible.

When fly sparging, you are diluting your wort as you progress through the sparge. If you don't watch your SG as you progress and you dilute below 1.008. If it does, your ph can go above 6 and you will extract tannns if you do. If you don't monitor while your sparging, you don't know if you've over sparged or not and you can extract tannins if you over sparge.

Read here: http://www.tastybrew.com/articles/dennyconn001

I was thinking of fly sparging with Phil's thingy but now I'm not sure.
I thought spraying the grain bed with fresh water was the best way. But now I'm getting the idea it's better and easier to just mix in all the sparge water at one, mix and then drain. (Batch sparging)

Do I have that right?

This is difficult to follow after a few HBs.

orfy said:

I was thinking of fly sparging with Phil's thingy but now I'm not sure.
I thought spraying the grain bed with fresh water was the best way. But now I'm getting the idea it's better and easier to just mix in all the sparge water at one, mix and then drain. (Batch sparging)

Do I have that right?

This is difficult to follow after a few HBs.

Click to expand...

Yes and no, Fly sparging like you would be doing with the Phil's sparge arm is more effecient (extracts more sugar) but there are more details to watch like maintaining water temps, controling flow rate, monitoring ph / gravity of your run-off toward the end.

With batch sparging, it's just much simpler, less to focus on, and only slightly less effecient (extracts less sugars) than fly sparging. Heck, grain is cheap, a little extra to compensate won't break the bank.

Thanks for the help and information.

So for a beginner, batch sparging seems to be the way to go. I have an insulated cooler so I need to add a spigot and some type of false bottom or filter.

I cheat and use "5.2" pH stabilizer in both the boil and batch sparge water. I have naturally soft water here. At a tablespoon per 5 gallons, I suspect the jar will last four or five years.

I've seen that stuff and have though about it. Does it really work? Have you tested the ph at the end of the sparge to make sure it does?

A sparge arm is simply not necessary. Others have reported a significant temperature loss by using the arm as well. IMO it's not worth the effort or the money. Here's how I sparge:

Take a hose from the HLT and lay it in the middle of the grainbed. Adjust the flow from the HLT to match the outflow from the mash/lauter tun (1qt per min max).. set it and forget it. I do check the grainbed temp every 15 or 20 minutes and I also check to make sure I still have an inch or two of water over the grainbed at all times. I routinely hit 29 - 32 efficiency points.. while sparging certainly is not the only factor I do believe that it helps.

ScottT said:

I've seen that stuff and have though about it. Does it really work? Have you tested the ph at the end of the sparge to make sure it does?

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I was looking for the 5.2 stabilizer at my LHBS and couldn't find it, but walked out with lactic acid instead. My city water is ~7ph and a teaspoon of the lactic acid seems to get my mash water in the neighborhood (hard to read those damn strips). My efficiency has gone up a consistent 5 points since using it (65%->70% in Promash) which isn't huge, but is noteworthy. I suspect I can fine tune and raise it a few more points. I always forget to add it to my sparge water, so that could help, as well.

Hard to read is an understatement! When I started brewing in California, we would have Michael's girlfriend read the strips (she's an illistrator/artist). Neither he nor I could tell the differences.

5.2 is a buffering compound, so it can deal with a little acid, neutral water or a little base.

ScottT said:

I've seen that stuff and have though about it. Does it really work? Have you tested the ph at the end of the sparge to make sure it does?

Click to expand...

Yep, it works! I have very hard water with a pH of well over 7 - probably closer to 9. I almost always use filtered tap water, measure during the sparge and usually hit 5.0-5.2

A good read explaining the various sparges! I got this from the "similar threads" box and wanted to top it. If it is in bad form, I apologize. I just thought it would be neat for some of the frustrated noobs like myself to see that even the veterans of the board were new guys at one time as well.