Difference between Porter and Stout?

CornyKegs 728
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i think porters are a bit sweeter, or carmely-er, and stouts wile plenty dark have a cleaner flavor, and sometimes a bit sour.
 
From what I understand there is little difference. In fact at one time there was only porter and a stout porter came out (strong porter), later shortened to just stout.

Some people will claim one has roasted barley while the other doesn't and that one will have crystal while the other doesn't. I think...and I could be wrong cause I am drunk...that they are pretty much the same at this point in time. Although maybe a stout is still considered a fuller bodied, darker, ale. Although porters are pretty full bodied and typical dark (near or at black colored). I guess a porter could be dark brown.
 
I think the main difference is that stouts use a larger portion of roasted barley. Though the line between the two styles is obviously pretty blurry. There are a few good threads in the "similar threads" box at the bottom of the page.
 
beersmith lists porters at 6.1 abv. and stouts at 4.9
porter has a final grav of 1.012-1.016 SG
stout 1.010-1.018 SG
so according to the documents they have the same sweetness but porters start with more sugar so theyre higher in alcohol.
to me stouts taste a bit more sour, and porters taste a bit more like oatmeal. thats how i usually know.
 
mc_eric said:
I think the main difference is that stouts use a larger portion of roasted barley. Though the line between the two styles is obviously pretty blurry. There are a few good threads in the "similar threads" box at the bottom of the page.
Click to expand...

Ding, thats what I would say.
 
The roasted barley vs black patent thing is bs. A british brewer would laugh at you if you told them that. Sierra Nevada was one of the first US brewers to make a stout and porter and they put black patent in the stout and roasted barley in the porter. I often invite people who believe that roasted barley makes a stout to call Sierra Nevada and tell them they are doing it wrong, but I don't think anyone as taken me up on that.

Anyway, that whole thing appears to have been completely fabricated. The only that that is true even generally is that if a brewery brews both, the stout is stronger.
 
For one, Porter can kill you. At least in 1894 England it could (a storage tank of porter ruptured and flooded its neighborhood and killed 8 people).

But seriously, from what I've read, they are similar beers. Porters fit between English brown ales and Stouts. One source that I read calls porters "A fairly substantial English dark ale with restrained roasty characteristics. It typically has a higher gravity and more roast flavor and aroma than English brown ales."

A stout is a darker beer that is commonly around ~30-35SRM but goes up to ~40SRM color, whereas porters are closer to 20-25SRM and can get up to ~35 depending on the style).
 
I think it's something like porters can have more hops according to the style. I'm not sure really, I wanted to know the same thing.
 
If stouts are darker, then does that make an imperial porter a stout?
(like flying dog's gonzo imperial porter?)
 
Keep in mind that there are at least three differen sub categories of porter and six or more sub categories of stout. Comparing a brown porter to a Russian imperial stout doesn't make much sense.

I buy the roasted barley rule as a general guideline, seems like some people have taken it as of it's the only thing that matters which is not true.

My suggestion, go out and taste the various styles with the style guide in hand (optional) and see the difference for yourself
 
There is no fundamental difference between the two.

While some do stick to including the roasted barley in stouts, it's still beer and you can change up whatever you like.

Stouts developing a lower average ABV is very ironic, considering "stout" is the shortened for "stout porter". Which, as the name would suggest, were porters that were brewed to be a bit stronger.

Historically, porter's are named after the London working class of porters that favored the beer.

At the time porters came about they were not a single beer. A porter was a mix of an older batch of ale, and a fresher ale. Sometimes a splash of a pale was added to the mix.

As the concoction grew in popularity, brewers began brewing a single beer with the characteristics of the popular mix. Thus the Porter was born!

So for a true distinction between a Porter and a stout, a porter should ideally be brewed with all English ingredients. Since that is definitively where the term arose. And a touch of aging can be thrown in as well, as a common practice arose to age porters, and even mix the two ages of porter. Otherwise it's an improperly named "stout".

Arguing one has higher ABV over the other is just splitting hairs. They're both dark beer. With a very mysterious and mix-n-matched history.

I haven't been able to track it down to try for myself, but St. Paul's brewery does supposedly make a traditional porter by mixing an aged batch with a newer.
 
There's a huge difference due to the absence of flavor
(late addition) hops in stouts. Try to keep in mind that
*all* style definitions are aribitrary and originally based
on commercial brand names like "stout" and "porter" or
"india pale ale".
The head brewer at Guiness says that they could detect
no flavor difference using black malt or roasted barley, so
that's not the difference. Their stout has one hop addition
at 60 min and that's it. Some so-called "Caribbean" stout
recipes that are higher gravity and alcohol use dark crystal
as well but stouts are generally made with ale malt, roasted
barley/black malt and many times with flaked barley.

Porters can be made with any combination of dark malts but
the major difference is a flavor addition, and/or aroma addition
and/or dry hopping. You can think of it as a darker version of
brown ale or as a more hop-accented stout.

Ray
 
Based on a quick glance at the Beer Style Guidelines,(http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/), Stouts are about 10 units darker in color (40s versus 30s, but who can tell at that level) and tend to have more of a coffee note. Like someone else said, with today's blurring of the styles, it is hard to tell.

Dr Malt :mug:
 
osagedr said:
Best source I know of to answer questions like this is the BJCP style guidelines.

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/catdex.php

Take a look at categories 12 and 13. IIRC stout (aka "porter extra stout") began as a style of porter (I might have read that on Wikipedia once upon a time).
Click to expand...

I laughed out loud when I read that recommendation. That's the worst place to go for clarification on Porter and Stout

This is a much better place to look:

http://zythophile.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/so-what-is-the-difference-between-porter-and-stout/.
 
Lol. I've got that blog bookmarked. I found it to be the most satisfactory information.

Someday I want to brew my own "special reserve" porter by aging a portion of it.
 
rayg said:
It makes no sense to me to say that there is no difference between the two,
as that web site states. It's like saying there is no difference between
bitter and ESB, or between pale ale and india pale ale.

Ray
Click to expand...

Describe a difference for which I can't quickly provide numerous counterexamples.

Note: roasted barley, strength, color and hopping won't work
 
Thought I'd throw 2 cents at this one! Just judging by taste profile of stouts and porters with all consideration of ingredients and numbers out the window... Porters tend to push a bit more of "dry/crisp" finish where stouts will tend to be a bit heavier and full tasting. Now make what you want of the numbers, but taste wise, that's where I see the difference. I tend to drink Porters for that reason.
 
remilard said:
Describe a difference for which I can't quickly provide numerous counterexamples.

Note: roasted barley, strength, color and hopping won't work
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what label some brewery puts on their beer. Anybody
can label a bitter an ipa if they want. The point is, porter and stout
are two distinct styles, that's why there are two books in the Classic
Beer Styles series, one titled "Porter" by Foster, and the other "Stout"
by Lewis, with completely different recipes in each, rather than one
book titled "Porter and Stout".

Typical porter recipe:
6.6 lb lme
4 oz crystal 80
2 oz choc malt
2 oz black malt
1/4 ounce Magnum 60 min
1/2 ounce Northern Brewer 10 min
1/2 ounce English Fuggles dry hop

Typical stout
3.3 lbs lme
4 lbs ale malt
1/2 pound flaked barley
6 oz roasted barley
1 oz Bramling Cross 60 min.

Two totally different beers.

Ray
 
rayg said:
It doesn't matter what label some brewery puts on their beer. Anybody
can label a bitter an ipa if they want. The point is, porter and stout
are two distinct styles, that's why there are two books in the Classic
Beer Styles series, one titled "Porter" by Foster, and the other "Stout"
by Lewis, with completely different recipes in each, rather than one
book titled "Porter and Stout".

Typical porter recipe:
6.6 lb lme
4 oz crystal 80
2 oz choc malt
2 oz black malt
1/4 ounce Magnum 60 min
1/2 ounce Northern Brewer 10 min
1/2 ounce English Fuggles dry hop

Typical stout
3.3 lbs lme
4 lbs ale malt
1/2 pound flaked barley
6 oz roasted barley
1 oz Bramling Cross 60 min.

Two totally different beers.

Ray
Click to expand...

I can tell by the fact that you are reverting to roast barley vs black malt that you haven't thought very hard about this. There was NEVER such a distinction in the UK. In the US there now exists that distinction, but the early produces of stout and porter didn't recognize it. Are you going to take my challenge and contact Sierra Nevada and tell them their porter and stout are made incorrectly? I am sure that when someone convinces them of that fact, they will change the recipes.
 
remilard said:
I can tell by the fact that you are reverting to roast barley vs black malt that you haven't thought very hard about this. There was NEVER such a distinction in the UK. In the US there now exists that distinction, but the early produces of stout and porter didn't recognize it. Are you going to take my challenge and contact Sierra Nevada and tell them their porter and stout are made incorrectly? I am sure that when someone convinces them of that fact, they will change the recipes.
Click to expand...

All right then lets bring the debate over to chocolate malt.

I'll assert that chocolate malt is more appropriate in a porter than a stout. Color and flavor can both be derived from chocolate malt in a porter, but for most stouts it is an unorthodox means to the black end.

discuss.
 
Also, I'll say again that we need to remember that there are 9+ different styles of beer in the porter/stout universe.

Pale malt, Flaked barley and roasted barley alone make a great dry stout, but not necessarily other styles that might benefit from some crystal and/or other specialty malts
 
philrose said:
I'm sorry, this is the internet and my sarcasm meter is broken.

Are you typing that statement earnestly?:confused:
Click to expand...

Yes. The BJCP just made all that crap about roast barley and patent malt.

Guinness only started using roasted barley in the 1930's. And when they did, used it in both their Porter and their Extra Stout. Whitbread never used roast barley in any of their Stouts in the period 1805 to 1970. Barclay Perkins randomly swapped between roast barley and patent malt for both their Porters and Stouts.

And don't get me started on such ridiculous styles as Brown Porter and Robust Porter.
 
rayg said:
It doesn't matter what label some brewery puts on their beer. Anybody
can label a bitter an ipa if they want. The point is, porter and stout
are two distinct styles, that's why there are two books in the Classic
Beer Styles series, one titled "Porter" by Foster, and the other "Stout"
by Lewis, with completely different recipes in each, rather than one
book titled "Porter and Stout".
Ray
Click to expand...

The "Stout" book by Lewis is almost 100% unmitigated bollocks:

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/beerbook.htm#stout

I wouldn't recommend anyone to take seriously anything in it.
 
philrose said:
All right then lets bring the debate over to chocolate malt.

I'll assert that chocolate malt is more appropriate in a porter than a stout. Color and flavor can both be derived from chocolate malt in a porter, but for most stouts it is an unorthodox means to the black end.

discuss.
Click to expand...

You'll have to tell Whitbread that they were brewing their Stout wrong in the years 1920 to 1970, because they used a combination of chocolate malt and brown malt in their Stouts and no roast barley or patent malt.
 
Anyone ever entered a competition with one and told it was in the wrong category?

I think the closest anyone has come to distinction is late hop additions. That said, I sampled a late hopped stout at lagunitas' tap room.
 
remilard said:
I can tell by the fact that you are reverting to roast barley vs black malt that you haven't thought very hard about this. There was NEVER such a distinction in the UK. In the US there now exists that distinction, but the early produces of stout and porter didn't recognize it. Are you going to take my challenge and contact Sierra Nevada and tell them their porter and stout are made incorrectly? I am sure that when someone convinces them of that fact, they will change the recipes.
Click to expand...

I already said earlier in the thread that there was no difference between
black malt and roast barley, and the head brewer at Guiness said so. If you
substitute black malt for roast barley in the second recipe that's fine, but
the two recipes are different and make completely different beers.

Ray
 
patto1ro said:
The "Stout" book by Lewis is almost 100% unmitigated bollocks:

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/beerbook.htm#stout

I wouldn't recommend anyone to take seriously anything in it.
Click to expand...

The book may be too technical for the average idiot homebrewer, but
to say that it's bollocks is...well, that's roflmao material. Lewis was
the head of the brewing program at UC Davis and has worked as a paid
consultant to breweries all over the world.

Ray
 
Hmm I think some of you take classification too seriously, the whole BJCP thing is a bit overdone with spurious reasons being taken to put beer in a category for the style nazis to get a hard on to.
Having worked as a barman for years in Ireland, if someone came into a bar and ordered a pint of porter they got Guinness, if they asked for a pint of stout, they got Guinness. Not because it was the only porter/stout that we had but because the nomenclature was correct in both cases.
 
rayg said:
The book may be too technical for the average idiot homebrewer, but
to say that it's bollocks is...well, that's roflmao material. Lewis was
the head of the brewing program at UC Davis and has worked as a paid
consultant to breweries all over the world.

Ray
Click to expand...

I should have been more specific: the sections of the history of Stout are total bollocks. There is some good technical stuff in the book. Follow the link and read my review.
 
patto1ro said:
I should have been more specific: the sections of the history of Stout are total bollocks. There is some good technical stuff in the book. Follow the link and read my review.
Click to expand...

Your interpretation of history is just as much bollocks as his is, if it is.
The topic of this thread is: "Difference Between Porter and Stout". Not:
What was the historical interpretation of the words "stout" and "porter"?

If you don't want to use Guiness as the base model for a stout like
I do, then don't. But if you do, you come up with at least two distinct
styles of beer, one labeled "porter", which has late hop additions and
a modest amount of dark grains (as a percentage of the grist), while
stout has a large amount of dark grain (as a percentage of the grist)
and no late hop additions. What some modern breweries call their
beers is irrelevant. A name is required for this beer:


6.6 lb lme
4 oz crystal 80
2 oz choc malt
2 oz black malt
1/4 ounce Magnum 60 min
1/2 ounce Northern Brewer 10 min
1/2 ounce English Fuggles dry hop

and a name is required for this beer:


3.3 lbs lme
4 lbs ale malt
1/2 pound flaked barley
6 oz roasted barley (or black malt)
1 oz Bramling Cross 60 min.

If you would prefer to call the first one "Fred" and the second one
"Wilma", that's fine, as long as you provide *some* name so that
I can know what you are talking about.

A much better question would be "What is the difference between
brown ale and porter", because there the styles blend into each other.
But "Porter" and "stout" are two quite distinct things.

Ray
 
rayg said:
If you don't want to use Guiness as the base model for a stout like
I do, then don't. But if you do, you come up with at least two distinct
styles of beer, one labeled "porter", which has late hop additions and
a modest amount of dark grains (as a percentage of the grist), while
stout has a large amount of dark grain (as a percentage of the grist)
and no late hop additions.
Click to expand...

What I've been basing my assertions on are:

1. Having looked at the brewing records of three of the original London Porter breweries: Whitbread, Truman and Barclay Perkins. The breweries where mass-scale Porter brewing started in the 18th century.

2. Guinness. I've not seen their brewing records myself. But, David Hughes, the author of "A Bottle of Guinness please" has. Their Extra Stout and Porter had the same grist.

I'm crazy. I've spent the last five years studying historical Porter and Stout grists.
 

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