Copper vs stainless steel chiller

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optaka

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Is there much of a difference? I assume theoretically the copper is a little more efficient and the stainless is a little more durable? Is there much practical difference between them or just a matter or preference?
 
The main plus for stainless steel is it doesn't corrode. Copper develops verdigris, which needs to be cleaned off before using. In terms of efficiency, it hardly matters.

Copper is cheaper and easier to shape.
 
Depends on the type of chiller you're looking for. For an IC, copper can be easier to form, and cheaper. For a CFC, stainless can be better since it will be more durable. Personally, I enjoy the compact form of a plate chiller (which is stainless steel). I did use an IC when I started brewing, but quickly graduated to a plate chiller.
 
If you are strictly considering an immersion chiller then go with the copper as it transfers hot/cold more efficiently and is less expensive. It can also just be added at the end of the boil to sanitize it for a few minutes or so.
 
Monster Mash said:
That pretty much sums it up right there especially if you want 1/2" tubing stainless is pretty pricey.
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Easier to shape yes. But cheaper???? Not lately! I got my 50' SS IC for about $70 shipped. I priced out making a copper, and buying a copper all over the web and the reality is SS was cheaper at this given point. Try looking at Ebay. I think it was NY brewing supply or something like that. Pretty cheep SS in comparison. I would have gladly bought Copper had it been cheap premade or build it yourself. I am kicking myself for not paying more and getting a plate chiller though as all the brew structure builds seem to build them into the structure. Wife would complain a lot less if space consumption (as well as personal consumption) were less.
 
Duda Diesel has chillers that start out cheaper than what you spent. Of course, they range to a couple/few times what you spent too. This is the one I purchased, which seriously kicks ass. I got it with the NPT fittings on the wort side, and installed CamLock fittings on it.
 
I live in a tiny apartment so a plate chiller would be nice to save on space, but I only do 5 gallon batches (again, small apartment) and I may drop down to smaller BIAB batches just to experiment more. Also, I have a relatively cheap brew kettle with no false bottom and no spigot so plate chiller wouldn't really work for me. Leaning towards an immersion chiller from NY brewing supply http://www.nybrewsupply.com/wort-chillers/shopby/vinyl_tubing_with_garden_hose_adapter.html (thanks RoughandReadyRanch for pointing out the site) The stainless is a tiny bit cheaper and I am almost wondering if I should just get the 50' for $20ish more.
 
Golddiggie said:
Duda Diesel has chillers that start out cheaper than what you spent. Of course, they range to a couple/few times what you spent too. This is the one I purchased, which seriously kicks ass. I got it with the NPT fittings on the wort side, and installed CamLock fittings on it.
Click to expand...

Cheaper then who paid? $100 more then the IC I got! Wish I had that extra hundred though.
 
Golddiggie said:
They have other models... That start at far less than the one I picked. They start at just under $60.
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Oh how I hat you so much right now:D. Wife is gonna kill me when I buy this. Might have to tell her it is for the truck or something. Why is a biodiesel site selling homebrew chillers anyway?
 
RoughandReadyRanch said:
Oh how I hat you so much right now:D. Wife is gonna kill me when I buy this. Might have to tell her it is for the truck or something. Why is a biodiesel site selling homebrew chillers anyway?
Click to expand...

They don't put all their eggs into the homebrew market. Just means they're smarter than the average beer. :D

As for how you sell your wife on the idea... Just point out how many pairs of shoes she has and how many hundreds were spent on them that are just for her. Where your brewing is for both of you to enjoy. :D
 
Golddiggie said:
They don't put all their eggs into the homebrew market. Just means they're smarter than the average beer. :D

As for how you sell your wife on the idea... Just point out how many pairs of shoes she has and how many hundreds were spent on them that are just for her. Where your brewing is for both of you to enjoy. :D
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Though still true because lets face it, women are women, but my wife is not the normal woman (she asked for a Dewalt LithIon Tool set for her birthday).
 
My wife doesn't care for power tools (as far as I know). But cmon guys copper is like 20 times (don't quote me here) more thermally conductive than stainless. Just google thermal conductivity. Just drunk and offering my two cents....
 
lschiavo said:
My wife doesn't care for power tools (as far as I know). But cmon guys copper is like 20 times (don't quote me here) more thermally conductive than stainless. Just google thermal conductivity. Just drunk and offering my two cents....
Click to expand...

This has been argued to death. Copper is thermally more effective. SS is stronger and able to be run thinner in tube form. The difference is negligible and we are talking 1 minute tops on IC. We are talking Plate chillers, like the big boys of brewing use. SS is corrosion free and the amount that flows through these things will most likely smoke the typical IC copper chiller. Just check back at the flow rates on the Diesel sight to get an idea and then think of your garden hose. I am on well and I get about 7-8GPM from the faucet. Some of the big Plate chillers are running at 60-80GPM on the water side and another 7-10gpm on the wort side. I am no physics expert but I think that is better then you are going to get from a copper IC. I feel you on the drinking though:off: I am sipping on a 7.5% Pale from Mammoth Brew Co and it is so good.
 
RoughandReadyRanch said:
This has been argued to death. Copper is thermally more effective. SS is stronger and able to be run thinner in tube form. The difference is negligible and we are talking 1 minute tops on IC. We are talking Plate chillers, like the big boys of brewing use. SS is corrosion free and the amount that flows through these things will most likely smoke the typical IC copper chiller. Just check back at the flow rates on the Diesel sight to get an idea and then think of your garden hose. I am on well and I get about 7-8GPM from the faucet. Some of the big Plate chillers are running at 60-80GPM on the water side and another 7-10gpm on the wort side. I am no physics expert but I think that is better then you are going to get from a copper IC. I feel you on the drinking though:off: I am sipping on a 7.5% Pale from Mammoth Brew Co and it is so good.
Click to expand...

I really haven't seen it "argued to death" here. Facts are facts. Copper kicks stainless ass in thermal conductivity. Is there a more important factor in heat transfer? No. Does it really matter for a homebrewer? No. But I use copper because I'm smart and efficient and drunk...cheers! Rough.
 
This is the first time I've seen verdigris proposed as a problem with copper ICs.

Yeah you should keep them reasonably clean but a little star-san spray and a hosing down (or vinegar w/ dish soap) and you should be fine.

A little copper in the brew is beneficial to fermentation as well.
 
TimpanogosSlim said:
This is the first time I've seen verdigris proposed as a problem with copper ICs.

Yeah you should keep them reasonably clean but a little star-san spray and a hosing down (or vinegar w/ dish soap) and you should be fine.

A little copper in the brew is beneficial to fermentation as well.
Click to expand...

I have looked everywhere for some form of scientific journal that states copper is good for fermentation and I have simply not found it. Zinc is beneficial to yeast and I have seen that in food science articles but nothing on copper. Do you have a source? I am going to ask Charlie Bamforth when I get back to UC Davis next month since i am in his class what he has to say but I am really curious as to why I can't find an journal article on this anywhere.
 
RoughandReadyRanch said:
I have looked everywhere for some form of scientific journal that states copper is good for fermentation and I have simply not found it. Zinc is beneficial to yeast and I have seen that in food science articles but nothing on copper. Do you have a source? I am going to ask Charlie Bamforth when I get back to UC Davis next month since i am in his class what he has to say but I am really curious as to why I can't find an journal article on this anywhere.
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Palmer states:

"Copper is a double-edged sword in brewing. It is beneficial before fermentation, but detrimental afterwards. Copper ions react with the hydrogen sulfide produced during fermentation and reduce it to insoluble copper sulfide, which is left behind with the trub and yeast cake. Switching to all stainless steel brewing equipment can lead to noticeable quantities of hydrogen sulfide and sulfur off-flavors and aromas in the beer. The use of copper wort chillers will provide all the copper necessary, as will including a short piece (1 inch) of copper tubing in the boil."
 
TimpanogosSlim said:
Palmer states:

"Copper is a double-edged sword in brewing. It is beneficial before fermentation, but detrimental afterwards. Copper ions react with the hydrogen sulfide produced during fermentation and reduce it to insoluble copper sulfide, which is left behind with the trub and yeast cake. Switching to all stainless steel brewing equipment can lead to noticeable quantities of hydrogen sulfide and sulfur off-flavors and aromas in the beer. The use of copper wort chillers will provide all the copper necessary, as will including a short piece (1 inch) of copper tubing in the boil."
Click to expand...

Yeah I have read that too. I think the guys book is great but I am a biochemist at UCD and I really like actually reading the published side of things in scientific journals. I am sure given the level at which Palmer is presenting that he likely utilized such a source (I hope), but I want the source. Seems like a graduate study on yeast nutrition and copper ions is a possibility assuming no such source exists. I am sure it does but I just haven't found it yet.
 
TimpanogosSlim said:
Palmer states:

"Copper is a double-edged sword in brewing. It is beneficial before fermentation, but detrimental afterwards. Copper ions react with the hydrogen sulfide produced during fermentation and reduce it to insoluble copper sulfide, which is left behind with the trub and yeast cake. Switching to all stainless steel brewing equipment can lead to noticeable quantities of hydrogen sulfide and sulfur off-flavors and aromas in the beer. The use of copper wort chillers will provide all the copper necessary, as will including a short piece (1 inch) of copper tubing in the boil."
Click to expand...

It's the nerd in my I think:ban:
 
I may be wrong (and drunk, it was brew day), but isn't copper an anti microbial? Thus, not allowing any bad stuff to grow and affect the wort and yeastie beasties?!
 
Budzien said:
I may be wrong (and drunk, it was brew day), but isn't copper an anti microbial? Thus, not allowing any bad stuff to grow and affect the wort and yeastie beasties?!
Click to expand...

Not sure how much you want to read but this review goes over how copper had only increased mold growth, did nothing for yeast. I can find lots of articles against the yeast but not a lot for it in beer.
 
RoughandReadyRanch said:
Not sure how much you want to read but this review goes over how copper had only increased mold growth, did nothing for yeast. I can find lots of articles against the yeast but not a lot for it in beer.
Click to expand...

"The results in Table I also show that copper alone gives no growth stimulation,
which further demonstrates the importance of iron and shows that
the activity of the copper is dependent upon the presence of iron."

Seems like iron in conjunction with copper is really the key but this study is talking about at 25-30'C which I think is fermenting temp. Not in the mood for conversions right now.
 
RoughandReadyRanch said:
Yeah I have read that too. I think the guys book is great but I am a biochemist at UCD and I really like actually reading the published side of things in scientific journals. I am sure given the level at which Palmer is presenting that he likely utilized such a source (I hope), but I want the source. Seems like a graduate study on yeast nutrition and copper ions is a possibility assuming no such source exists. I am sure it does but I just haven't found it yet.
Click to expand...

My reading of Palmer's statement is:

1: Yeast often produces hydrogen sulfide, as a given
2: Copper ions react with hydrogen sulfide to create copper sulfide
3: Copper sulfide is heavy and drops out of solution

So the argument being made is that copper ions in the wort are beneficial to the beer, rather than to the yeast that makes the beer.
 
Budzien said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimicrobial_properties_of_copper
i know it's a wiki... but, it is a confirmed property of copper and it's alloys. I'm an electrician and know a thing, or two, about copper...
Click to expand...

Wiki says it inhibited mold yet the article I found says it increased mold spore production. Isn't science a pain in the a$$!!!:drunk: I am sure there is good reason why all our water has been pumped through copper pipes for so long, but I tend to question how much it really helps in the beer process. We are not leaving the chiller in for fermentation. Previously it was said that copper would fall out in the trub which I am assuming was meant to be mean the ions, but I feel like that might not be possible either. If copper was so important in antimicrobial and yeast formation, why do the big guys use plate chillers. I feel like I am simply going farther down the rabbit hole here. I need a drink!
 
TimpanogosSlim said:
My reading of Palmer's statement is:

1: Yeast often produces hydrogen sulfide, as a given
2: Copper ions react with hydrogen sulfide to create copper sulfide
3: Copper sulfide is heavy and drops out of solution

So the argument being made is that copper ions in the wort are beneficial to the beer, rather than to the yeast that makes the beer.
Click to expand...

It makes sense. I am looking at another abstract that looked at using beer waste as a copper and lead ion capture system. I don't doubt Palmer did his homework, I just want the source.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304389406004195
 
RoughandReadyRanch said:
Wiki says it inhibited mold yet the article I found says it increased mold spore production. Isn't science a pain in the a$$!!!:drunk: I am sure there is good reason why all our water has been pumped through copper pipes for so long, but I tend to question how much it really helps in the beer process. We are not leaving the chiller in for fermentation. Previously it was said that copper would fall out in the trub which I am assuming was meant to be mean the ions, but I feel like that might not be possible either. If copper was so important in antimicrobial and yeast formation, why do the big guys use plate chillers. I feel like I am simply going farther down the rabbit hole here. I need a drink!
Click to expand...

I'm not a chemist, but i can understand how an infinitesimal amount of copper ions can swim around in solution but gradually take on weight and clump together as they react and bond with other elements.

Or at any rate the copper can go from water soluble to insoluble as it picks up friends.

I readily admit that i have a sesame street perspective on that.

I know a chemistry professor (Well, a guy with four degrees who runs the magnet lab for the chemistry and biology departments of a university) who could provide the whole technical explanation, if i wanted to bother him with it.

Pretty sure the reason we use copper pipes is the same reason ancient romans used lead pipes: It's easy to work with.
 
TimpanogosSlim said:
I'm not a chemist, but i can understand how an infinitesimal amount of copper ions can swim around in solution but gradually take on weight and clump together as they react and bond with other elements.

Or at any rate the copper can go from water soluble to insoluble as it picks up friends.

I readily admit that i have a sesame street perspective on that.

I know a chemistry professor (Well, a guy with four degrees who runs the magnet lab for the chemistry and biology departments of a university) who could provide the whole technical explanation, if i wanted to bother him with it.

Pretty sure the reason we use copper pipes is the same reason ancient romans used lead pipes: It's easy to work with.
Click to expand...


Most likely true. Beer answers all yet again.:mug:
 

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