Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

SpanishCastleAle said:

Thanks, I'll keep it in mind. I still think/hope it will carb up but it just might take a while.

Yeast like to wake up right after you post that they're not waking up so I had to perform the ritual in order to light a fire under their ass.

Click to expand...

FWIW, my Quad did start carbing up (no added yeast) and is still going (I intentionally added a little too much sugar and am venting off the excess via spunding).

SpanishCastleAle said:

FWIW, my Quad did start carbing up (no added yeast) and is still going (I intentionally added a little too much sugar and am venting off the excess via spunding).

Click to expand...

classic line of reasoning to get there

if you hadn't posted, you would be re-pitching!

CSI said:

Two observations. 3711 is an extremely "funky" Belgian yeast. Even a small amount will affect this ale's flavor. Also, 3711 attenuates down well below 1.010 and keeps on going. Preferable to stay with highly active Westmalle.

Click to expand...

I got down to 1.006 using 530...is this bad? The beer tasted absolutely phenomenal when I sampled some the other day. I brewed it 2 months ago. It is definitely the best strong dark I have ever tasted, even this young, warm, and uncarbed.

rexbanner said:

I got down to 1.006 using 530...is this bad? The beer tasted absolutely phenomenal when I sampled some the other day. I brewed it 2 months ago. It is definitely the best strong dark I have ever tasted, even this young, warm, and uncarbed.

Click to expand...

I'd say ale is only as good as it tastes. If it tastes good it's a winner to friends and family even if its a little outside the style. The body and sweetness are intended to hide the high ABV in a smooth rich mouthfeel with a little sweetness. We had a similar affect with a Pannepot OFA, (our FG was 1.020 with the spec to have been at FG 1.025), but it's still a remarkably good ale.

I thought I would offer an update for anyone who searches this thread in the future with similar problems. After the week at 82*, I was at 1.05. I transferred half to a 3 gallon carboy as is, the other half onto a notty yeast cake as a test, with 1 cup Makers Mark and 1 oz oak cubes. I did a bigger starter with another vile of 530 and decanted then pitched about 250 ml into each carboy. At the time of pitching, the plain was still at 1.05 and the boubon oaked notty cake was at 1.045. Since the repitch of 530 it has been a slow and steady ferment. I thought at 1.05 that it would be strong at the beginning. Still plenty of sugars in there. But very slow, though steady. We are now at 10 days and I will leave it a min of 2 weeks before I take another SG reading.

In hindsight, I feel my problem was too small a starter. This was my first starter and did the standard 2 cups water and 1/2 cup LME. A beer this big needed more than that.

Your starter size is definitely the cause, you probably would have been better off pitching the yeast directly into the fermenter.
2 cups + DME is less than a half a liter, which is not really enough of volume of starter to increase your yeast population at all even if you had a stir plate, if anything it would probably decrease it.
By comparison a wyeast/white labs yeast pack is 100bil/cells and is about 1 liter (with a stir plate) worth of yeast. I would recommend a 2.5 liter (with stir plate, this is CRUCIAL) starter to get you up to 250bil/cells for a 5gal batch.
If you don't have a stir plate (which by now you should realize is something you should have) you would need probably a 5-6 liter starter to get this kind of cell count.

saq said:

Your starter size is definitely the cause, you probably would have been better off pitching the yeast directly into the fermenter.
2 cups + DME is less than a half a liter, which is not really enough of volume of starter to increase your yeast population at all even if you had a stir plate, if anything it would probably decrease it.
By comparison a wyeast/white labs yeast pack is 100bil/cells and is about 1 liter (with a stir plate) worth of yeast. I would recommend a 2.5 liter (with stir plate, this is CRUCIAL) starter to get you up to 250bil/cells for a 5gal batch.
If you don't have a stir plate (which by now you should realize is something you should have) you would need probably a 5-6 liter starter to get this kind of cell count.

Click to expand...

Why would a half quart starter decrease yeast population? That doesn't make any sense to me.

rjwhite41 said:

Why would a half quart starter decrease yeast population? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Click to expand...

Because the maximum cell count (population) you can get in super precise laboratory conditions is about 250m cells per ml, we'll say if you are lucky at home with a stir plate and good nutrients you will break 150+m cells per ml. If you have a simple starter with no stir plate and occasionally shake it you might get between 20m and 30m cells per ml.

White Labs and WYeast both ship 100bil/cell packs. Adding a 100bil/cell pack into a half liter non-stirplated less than laboratory condition starter is going to result in overpopulation and a lot of yeast will shut down and probably die, thus reducing the cell count.

A 500ml starter at 20-30m cells per ml you are looking at 10b/cells ml maximum supported population so you are seriously constraining yourself with such a small starter.

Just wanted to say I entered into a local comp at a brew pub with two pro brewers judging. I took second overall with this beer. Probably would have taken BOS if I didn't enter my witbier also since I came in second to myself overall. Thanks for the great recipe, a couple judges are asking for more!

So after pitching another starter of 530 a couple weeks ago, it only dropped it down from 1.045 to 1.040. Has anyone tried adding amalyse enzyme to a secondary? Running out of ideas. This may be better to post in a new thread to reach a bigger audience as well as this may classify as threadjacking at this point.

1.04 or not, it's still VERY good. I won't have any problem consuming.

saq said:

Because the maximum cell count (population) you can get in super precise laboratory conditions is about 250m cells per ml, we'll say if you are lucky at home with a stir plate and good nutrients you will break 150+m cells per ml. If you have a simple starter with no stir plate and occasionally shake it you might get between 20m and 30m cells per ml.

White Labs and WYeast both ship 100bil/cell packs. Adding a 100bil/cell pack into a half liter non-stirplated less than laboratory condition starter is going to result in overpopulation and a lot of yeast will shut down and probably die, thus reducing the cell count.

A 500ml starter at 20-30m cells per ml you are looking at 10b/cells ml maximum supported population so you are seriously constraining yourself with such a small starter.

Click to expand...

I hadn't thought of the maximum density of yeast cells in a medium. Thank you for explaining that. I still don't think the yeast will die that fast and will go dormant instead, leaving you with the same or a slightly greater yeast population then what you started with. Anyway, this has nothing to do with the Westy clone so thanks for indulging me and I will go away now.

I know what I'd do. Brett b! However you might not want that.

So I'd like to try this one and hopefully have it semi-aged and ready in time for the holidays.

Problem is my 5 gallon mash tun will not accomodate the entire grain bill for this beer (the most i've managed to cram in there is 12-13 lbs).

Would I run into any problems if I replace the base grain with DME and then do a mini mash for the specialty grains? I have not run the calculations in Beersmith yet, but I'm thinking 7-8 lbs of DME should get me in the 1.08-1.09 OG range.

Any tips would be appreciated!

I assume you're talking the "new world" recipe. No matter what recipe you do you can aim for what your mash tun holds and then make up the rest of the gravity with some light DME. I did the old world recently and it turned out awesome. I have plans to do it again very soon in a slightly larger batch and sour a portion.

smokinghole said:

I assume you're talking the "new world" recipe. No matter what recipe you do you can aim for what your mash tun holds and then make up the rest of the gravity with some light DME. I did the old world recently and it turned out awesome. I have plans to do it again very soon in a slightly larger batch and sour a portion.

Click to expand...

Good suggestion! I think I will go that route. Thanks

Hi guys.

So I am mashing the "old world" recipe right now and I am hitting some bumps:

Here is where I am:
The mash is going in a 40quart stainless pot.

I lead with an acid rest, then did protein rest and just decocted 9 quarts back in for the 151 step.
That led my mashtemp over 165!!!!!!!! AAAAH
that 40 quarts tun was filled with 32q water. Together with the grain it is full to the brim.
I dropped ice cubes in and am now at 156 or so.
There is enzyme left, but this tripple decoction clearly just downgraded itself to double decoction.

I wish I had calculated decoction volumes myself. At least with my setup pulling just under 9 quarts for decoction landed me on a different temperature planet.

Any thoughts how that happened? I was around 130 when the boiling 8.xx quarts went back to the mash.

Here is where my real pickle starts:

I have 8 gallons in that mash (the prescribed 32 quarts). My tun is full and by my best guess I really don't want to pull more than 7 gallons preboil volume out of this.

Will fly sparging very slowly sink enough sugar down to hit my gravity? (I am talking about that gradient fly sparging forms) I really don't mind discarding the wort, but the grain is dissolved in so much water to begin with I have my doubts ill hit OG? I think batch sparging ain't happenin today.

I brewed up a partial mash version of Candi Syrups Westy 12 ver 6 last night. FYI to CSI, the recipe on your website doesn't mention when to add the syrup. I'm assuming you're supposed to add it a 3 minutes left in the boil like in ver 5.

Lurch69 said:

I brewed up a partial mash version of Candi Syrups Westy 12 ver 6 last night. FYI to CSI, the recipe on your website doesn't mention when to add the syrup. I'm assuming you're supposed to add it a 3 minutes left in the boil like in ver 5.

Click to expand...

Care to provide a link? Id like to read that.

Scratch that I found it.


PS:

So I fly sparged 8.5 gallons out of that. Im boiling in two pots to maximize evaporation. I still don't see how im going to manage 30% or so in volume in a 90 minute boil.

The recipe calls for 8.25-> 5.5 So somebody has done it

BTW my brewhouse efficiency is low but consistently so with these big grain bills. I used 19.5 lb grain to adjust for that.

Will report OG soon

I usually go from 7.6gal to 5.5gal in 90 minutes in one pot. Take one gallon in another pot and boil it down to syrup and then add it to the pot, it will give it some extra complexity.

So I must have started with more than I thought. I ended up with 7 gallons after a good two hours. I added hops based on a 90 minute boil, but I don't think that will throw things off too badly.

With the higher volume I have a bit of an OG pickle: 1.084

That's gonna be a nice beer, but it won't be the one I tried to emulate
Thanks for trying?

I'd be curious as to how many people actually hit every target including gravity boil times etc.

This is not a beginners beer!

PS: I totally did the syrup thing with the smaller second pot btw. ... minds think alike?

I brewed the "New World" recipe last week. OG was 1.09. I did a hydrometer reading today (day 6 of primary) and it's down to 1.018. It still had a nice, thick krausen so it should go lower still! Seems to be right on track and the hydrometer sample tasted amazing.

So..thinking a few weeks ahead...

Many belgian beers have a fairly high amount of carbonation so I'm wondering about how much priming sugar to use on bottling day?
Shall I stick with the 1 oz priming sugar per gallon or bump it slightly to maybe 1.25oz//gallon?

This would be my first high gravity belgian beer, so any input would be great!

Looking to do the new world recipes. I'm just a little confused. The mash is 24qt for 5.5 gallons. I see no metion of sparge. It is missing or am i missing something?

What temp did you guys sparge and wilth what quantity of water?
Thanks

Sparge as normal to get your pre boil volume.

saq said:

Sparge as normal to get your pre boil volume.

Click to expand...

I have yet to make to recipes with the same boil volume or sparge temperature. At what temp would you sparge it?

168f

Justa quick update.
I am not done with the 7 weeks conditioning, but took a sneak peek reading today

OG 1.084 (I felt low)
current (hopefully final) 1.005

I did not expect the yeast to chew that far down. Maybe the fact that there were three days were it got to leave the fridge gave them a bit extra chance? who knows.

Current taste is surprisingly clean and very alcoholic. Good though.

I guess that leaves me at 10% or so. Below target OG and below target FG go figure...

drkaeppel said:

I brewed the "New World" recipe last week. OG was 1.09. I did a hydrometer reading today (day 6 of primary) and it's down to 1.018. It still had a nice, thick krausen so it should go lower still! Seems to be right on track and the hydrometer sample tasted amazing.

So..thinking a few weeks ahead...

Many belgian beers have a fairly high amount of carbonation so I'm wondering about how much priming sugar to use on bottling day?
Shall I stick with the 1 oz priming sugar per gallon or bump it slightly to maybe 1.25oz//gallon?

This would be my first high gravity belgian beer, so any input would be great!

Click to expand...

It sounds like you're ahead of target. What does your grain and adjunct bill look like?

rjwhite41 said:

168f

Click to expand...

Thanks

I finally tapped the old world batch that I brewed on big brew day. I overshot my gravity by a big margin and ended up 12.5% with a FG of 1.020. It's not too sweet and the alcohol burn does well to keep it balanced. I used 1.5lbs of homemade candi syrup along with D2 and can honestly say that this is one of the best strong darks that I have had (and yes, I've had Westy12 and this is up in that range).

Thanks for the recipe guys!

CSI said:

It sounds like you're ahead of target. What does your grain and adjunct bill look like?

Click to expand...

I followed the recipe pretty much exactly. The only thing I did differently was sub some of the base grain for DME because my mash tun was too small. My numbers were all pretty much spot-on according to the recipe. Haven't checked FG yet.

Well I entered the Old World version into a local competition that was brewed in March 2011, and I figured some might be interested to hear the results.

Some background first: I didn’t modify the recipe from the first post; and used 3lbs of really great dark (~ 180L) candi syrup from my LHBS. I made a full 4L starter of WLP 530, let it ferment out/crash cooled it, and pitched 1.095 wort on top of the cake. I did a single infusion mash at 149F. I pitched at 64F and let it self-rise (at room temp) up to about 75F, at which point I used a brew belt to get it to 82-83F, then held it until I reached FG a total of 7 days from pitching. My FG was 1.012, right on point. I let it sit for another week in primary, then secondaried for 8 weeks at 50F. I bottled with 5g of dry neutral ale yeast and dextrose to 2.7 volumes of CO2, and have stored the bottles in a cool dark place since.

The beer scored a 26 and a 28 from two BJCP judges. The major negative comments were “too spicy/phenolic, too much alcohol flavor and solvent character. Not enough malt presence or creaminess”. Suggestions for improvement included: “lower fermentation temps and make a starter of healthy yeast”. I also got knocked for diacetyl and sherry-like notes.

If I’m going to keep it real, I can’t say I disagree with some of the core comments. The beer is not bad by any stretch, but the spicy phenolics are prominent, and the alcohol character is strong. I do agree that the beer lacks malt complexity.

My takeaways are this, and I would love to hear some thoughts/comments from those who might have more experience or what have you:

-I think for the Old World version to shine, it really needs a decoction mash to bring out some malt character of the base grains. There is something lacking with the single infusion/base malt/candi syrup approach.

-I will re-attempt, but this time I am going to try the New World version and keep my temps in the 68-72F range, except for maybe at the very end when I will ramp it up to try and dry it out a bit. I found it interesting in Brewing Classic Styles, that JZ’s award-winning BDS recipe basically ferments cool and finishes at 1.026, and has a relatively complex malt bill.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I thought some might find this interesting. This was my first competition, and all things considered, the score is not horrible. But I do want to get better, and would appreciate some feedback from my fellow homebrewers.

Cheers!

Was this Monk's Melee? I only ask because I also entered in that competition with the same recipe. Only I customized it slightly to what I had available. I used french strisselspalt hops in place of the hallertauer. For my mash I did a pseudo decoction to raise my temp from the first rest to sacch rest. Not sure not much that mattered but I like using that method on my Belgian brews. For fermentation I did an "open" fermentation where the top of my 10gal screw top corny keg gets nothing more than a papertowel to prevent things from falling or flying into the fermentor. I did a water profile based loosely on what was listed for the St. Sixtus Abby in BLAM. The big difference I probably made to my technique that is glaringly different compared to the recipe is my yeast dose. I figured to grow enough yeast for 750million/ml to just slightly under pitch. Then I did not oxygenate the wort and that is why I went with an open fermentation. I did a very warm ferment like 80-86F then I transferred to secondary on top of the last pound of D180 from Candy Syrup Inc. I left that go warm for over three weeks or more in my fermentation closet. Then I moved it into my refrigerator and let it cold condition for about 5-7 weeks. From there I bottled with additional D180 and a fresh tube of WLP530. I will say the one thing about mine that I didn't like was the way it did not attenuate as far as I'd have liked. Mine finished at 1.022 which left it a touch sweeter and less than 10%abv. Its still a damn fine beer though.

I won best of show at Monk's Melee this past weekend using the base Old World recipe as a my guide. I tweaked techniques and small recipe things based on reading BLAM and my personal experience in brewing higher alcohol beers and my personal experience with belgian styles. I am brewing this recipe again very soon in a bigger batch and may up the 20min hops just a smidge.

g-star said:

My takeaways are this, and I would love to hear some thoughts/comments from those who might have more experience or what have you:

-I think for the Old World version to shine, it really needs a decoction mash to bring out some malt character of the base grains. There is something lacking with the single infusion/base malt/candi syrup approach.

-I will re-attempt, but this time I am going to try the New World version and keep my temps in the 68-72F range, except for maybe at the very end when I will ramp it up to try and dry it out a bit. I found it interesting in Brewing Classic Styles, that JZ’s award-winning BDS recipe basically ferments cool and finishes at 1.026, and has a relatively complex malt bill.

Click to expand...

I agree, the Old World recipe isn't as good without the decoction. To date my best brew was a New World recipe.
Its possible that with the brew belt it raised the fermentation temp too fast, which could cause the yeast to get a little harsh. I've experimented with ferment temp a lot and if I ferment under 74f it looses a lot of the yeast character. Lately I've been doing 78-80 as the yeast is pushed very hard in that range but a lot of the good yeast character comes out.
Good luck on the pursuit of the perfect quad! (I'm still searching too!)

smokinghole said:

Was this Monk's Melee? I only ask because I also entered in that competition with the same recipe. Only I customized it slightly to what I had available. I used french strisselspalt hops in place of the hallertauer. For my mash I did a pseudo decoction to raise my temp from the first rest to sacch rest. Not sure not much that mattered but I like using that method on my Belgian brews. For fermentation I did an "open" fermentation where the top of my 10gal screw top corny keg gets nothing more than a papertowel to prevent things from falling or flying into the fermentor. I did a water profile based loosely on what was listed for the St. Sixtus Abby in BLAM. The big difference I probably made to my technique that is glaringly different compared to the recipe is my yeast dose. I figured to grow enough yeast for 750million/ml to just slightly under pitch. Then I did not oxygenate the wort and that is why I went with an open fermentation. I did a very warm ferment like 80-86F then I transferred to secondary on top of the last pound of D180 from Candy Syrup Inc. I left that go warm for over three weeks or more in my fermentation closet. Then I moved it into my refrigerator and let it cold condition for about 5-7 weeks. From there I bottled with additional D180 and a fresh tube of WLP530. I will say the one thing about mine that I didn't like was the way it did not attenuate as far as I'd have liked. Mine finished at 1.022 which left it a touch sweeter and less than 10%abv. Its still a damn fine beer though.

I won best of show at Monk's Melee this past weekend using the base Old World recipe as a my guide. I tweaked techniques and small recipe things based on reading BLAM and my personal experience in brewing higher alcohol beers and my personal experience with belgian styles. I am brewing this recipe again very soon in a bigger batch and may up the 20min hops just a smidge.

Click to expand...

The St Sixtus area has very hard water but they don't brew with it as people have posted about it, they filter it and do a number of modifications to it to soften it up.
The brewing experts these days don't ever consider a "regional style" water profile to be of any use at all, they customize the water profile to each recipe as they all deserve their own attention.

Yeah looked at the water profile and made it much softer. I used similar ratios but at much smaller additions.

smokinghole said:

I won best of show at Monk's Melee this past weekend using the base Old World recipe as a my guide. I tweaked techniques and small recipe things based on reading BLAM and my personal experience in brewing higher alcohol beers and my personal experience with belgian styles.

Click to expand...

Yes, it was MM...congrats on your win. I would be interested to know the winning score if you felt comfortable sharing.

It seems there were quite a few differences between our approaches, most notably the fact that you under-pitched a bit and did an open fermentation. Interesting that you fermented as high as 86F, as the dominant theme in both my score sheets was that I needed to dial the ferm temp back. You also finished much higher than I did at 1.022, perhaps the dryness of the beer + the fermentation profile made the alcohol more prominent in my version.

saq said:

I agree, the Old World recipe isn't as good without the decoction. To date my best brew was a New World recipe.
Its possible that with the brew belt it raised the fermentation temp too fast, which could cause the yeast to get a little harsh. I've experimented with ferment temp a lot and if I ferment under 74f it looses a lot of the yeast character. Lately I've been doing 78-80 as the yeast is pushed very hard in that range but a lot of the good yeast character comes out.

Click to expand...

Well, I let it self-rise from 64F to 75F, that took about 36hrs. I got it up to 82F about 24hrs after that with the brew belt and held it there for another 3 days. Maybe that was too fast...I dunno.

Maybe I will try WLP530 again and dial it back a bit to max out around 78-80F after a slower rise from the low 60's. I've also contemplated trying WLP540 and keeping around 68-72F for the duration a la Rochefort 10.

Either way I am going to take another stab at the ultimate quad!

Cheers!

I got a 33 on mine.

One of the funny themes on my sheet was that they mentioned how it lacked phenolic character. One of the judges said "lacking yeast character, use correct yeast and appropriate temps to bring out appropriate phenolic flavor". My dings keeping me out of the 40s were in the flavor category by both judges.

This is my second and last competition for a while. It seems judges feel the need to offer advice not knowing how the beer was brewed, just like officers on Cops act like counselors to the meth heads they tackle. I guess part of my problem with the suggestions is that the dark strongs that I have drank are smoother and just as phenolic and estery as this beer. In fact I think mine is a touch more phenolic than some of the classic examples. There is a possibility that if I dry it out a bit more the phenolic character will come out.

smokinghole said:

I got a 33 on mine.

One of the funny themes on my sheet was that they mentioned how it lacked phenolic character. One of the judges said "lacking yeast character, use correct yeast and appropriate temps to bring out appropriate phenolic flavor". My dings keeping me out of the 40s were in the flavor category by both judges.

This is my second and last competition for a while. It seems judges feel the need to offer advice not knowing how the beer was brewed, just like officers on Cops act like counselors to the meth heads they tackle. I guess part of my problem with the suggestions is that the dark strongs that I have drank are smoother and just as phenolic and estery as this beer. In fact I think mine is a touch more phenolic than some of the classic examples. There is a possibility that if I dry it out a bit more the phenolic character will come out.

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing. This was my first competition, and I’m glad to get the experience, though this is certainly a tough style to crack. I guess the judging is subjective no matter how much they try to objectify it. Sounds like if we blended our beers we might have the perfect quad in their eyes. LOL.

smokinghole said:

I got a 33 on mine.

One of the funny themes on my sheet was that they mentioned how it lacked phenolic character. One of the judges said "lacking yeast character, use correct yeast and appropriate temps to bring out appropriate phenolic flavor". My dings keeping me out of the 40s were in the flavor category by both judges.

This is my second and last competition for a while. It seems judges feel the need to offer advice not knowing how the beer was brewed, just like officers on Cops act like counselors to the meth heads they tackle. I guess part of my problem with the suggestions is that the dark strongs that I have drank are smoother and just as phenolic and estery as this beer. In fact I think mine is a touch more phenolic than some of the classic examples. There is a possibility that if I dry it out a bit more the phenolic character will come out.

Click to expand...

This happens a lot with judges, I've gotten similar comments on this beer when it medaled/BOS despite it obviously having PLENTY of these characters in appropriate amounts.

I've found that not all of the esters you want from this yeast are formed from fermentation temperature but some of them are from a slightly longer reproduction cycle (compared to American brewing styles) and cut back on the pitching rate and stopped oxygenating with my wand. This brought the esters up to the level I want.

g-star said:

Yes, it was MM...congrats on your win. I would be interested to know the winning score if you felt comfortable sharing.

It seems there were quite a few differences between our approaches, most notably the fact that you under-pitched a bit and did an open fermentation. Interesting that you fermented as high as 86F, as the dominant theme in both my score sheets was that I needed to dial the ferm temp back. You also finished much higher than I did at 1.022, perhaps the dryness of the beer + the fermentation profile made the alcohol more prominent in my version.



Well, I let it self-rise from 64F to 75F, that took about 36hrs. I got it up to 82F about 24hrs after that with the brew belt and held it there for another 3 days. Maybe that was too fast...I dunno.

Maybe I will try WLP530 again and dial it back a bit to max out around 78-80F after a slower rise from the low 60's. I've also contemplated trying WLP540 and keeping around 68-72F for the duration a la Rochefort 10.

Either way I am going to take another stab at the ultimate quad!

Cheers!

Click to expand...

I think you find you'll be pretty disappointed in the Rochefort yeast, it is one of THE cleanest Belgian yeasts out there. They get a lot of the "quad" esters by adding small amounts of black pepper and coriander, neither of which belong in a "westy" style quad.

Trust in the Westmalle yeast, pretty much EVERYONE who makes killer quads anywhere uses Westmalle yeast.