A quick note on competitions/judging/overall perception

I just got my scores back from the HHHC, and they were what I expected for the most part. I was not disappointed in the least but I thought one thing was really interesting. I'm seeing a cultural divide in my part of the country.

I gave a bottle of my IPA to a guy I know locally (BJCP and Cicerone certified) and he said, "for San Diego, this is more of an APA, but it would probably do ok in competition." He didn't think it was hoppy enough to be an IPA around these parts.

Fast forward to my notes (great notes, by the way. I love when the judges take time to explain what they're tasting) and both judges said it was aggressively hopped and "almost too harsh".

I really do think this is an interesting split in perceptions. I never expect to win anything, and my scores for this beer were still in the high 30s, but I really think that living in different regions makes a big difference in how a beer is perceived. When you're fed beers called Palate Wrecker and Hopnotic pretty much all the time (and I've even come to think Pliny is a more mild IPA at this point) it really changes how you taste.

Regardless of local perceptions, a good judge shouldn't be biased because of what he is accustomed to drinking. If a beer fits the style of an IPA it should be graded as an IPA. If it's an excessive hop monster that is more like an IIPA or something totally out of style it should really be graded in that category or dismissed as being out of style.

That's just my personal thought. When I review beers at home, I really try to be objective and grade based on style guidelines and I have given decent marks to beers I really didn't think that highly of, because they met all the characteristics of the style.

Unfortunately, there is no way you can account for a judge's personal taste. sure one should be well versed in different styles, but ultimately that person is going to have certain experiences that affect how they taste.

At least the comments give an idea about how they sense the hops, and can form your own ideas about where to go from here. I myself have had IPAs that ranged from "Ok, this is not much more than a good APA." all the way to, "Are you kidding me? This is a monster!"

McKBrew said:

Regardless of local perceptions, a good judge shouldn't be biased because of what he is accustomed to drinking. If a beer fits the style of an IPA it should be graded as an IPA. If it's an excessive hop monster that is more like an IIPA or something totally out of style it should really be graded in that category or dismissed as being out of style.

That's just my personal thought. When I review beers at home, I really try to be objective and grade based on style guidelines and I have given decent marks to beers I really didn't think that highly of, because they met all the characteristics of the style.

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I don't think it is intentional. Even if you go by style, what one perceives as "aggressive hops" might seem like a balanced, or even a mild IPA to someone who is used to hoppier beers. I'm just saying that over time I'm thinking that being in a town like mine, we're constantly subjected to hop monsters, so when something a little smaller comes through, it seems to be a lot less aggressive.

My beer was 100% judged fairly, and I appreciated the notes. I'm not one to complain about that.

And unfortunately this is pretty much why I don't enter competitions.

You need to be strategic when entering competitions- thinking about what is popular regionally, stylistically and otherwise. The APA/IPA categories are always utterly flooded with submissions so you really need something exceptional to stand out and place.

carnevoodoo said:

I gave a bottle of my IPA to a guy I know locally (BJCP and Cicerone certified) and he said, "for San Diego, this is more of an APA, but it would probably do ok in competition." He didn't think it was hoppy enough to be an IPA around these parts.

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Seeing as how Stone Brewing is in the same county and they are one of the most aggressive brewers of hops, i can kind of see that.

I've posted this before, but it fits


I've thought about entering Comps before, but always worried if what I like would be what the judges like. I've read posts like this on several sites and the general thing I here is "needs more", whether it be hops, malt, spice, etc.

I now understand why some people do well at comps and others don't (IMO), after reading this on another site

QUOTE
" I am a very active judge and I agree that the tendency is to score the more flavorful beers higher, particularly with the less experienced judges. I sometimes have to "reel in" an enthusiastic but misguided judge who is blundering down this path, particularly as we get deeper into a flight or flights. I see the results of this trend in the Best of Show round somewhat frequently, too, with beers that have big flavor but are way out of balance and simply not a harmonious brew.

That said, there is a possibility (probability?) that your beer is not going to be judged by an experienced team, and you may (will) be faced with this situation often. So, you can fret about it, or you can adapt your competition recipes to compensate.

One strategy that addresses your specific issue of "needs more" is to deliberately brew a caricature of the style. Let's say, for example, you were attempting to brew an American Amber, of which a typical commercial example might be reddish in color, have lots of caramel malt, and be moderately hoppy (less so than a Pale Ale). You might design a beer with LOTS of caramel malt (on the order of 15%), mash it cooler (~148F) or step mash it with a longer rest in the beta amylase range to compensate for the reduced fermentability, select a typical and easily-identifiable American hop (like Cascade) that any judge will recognize and then use it judiciously, and ferment it with a very clean yeast (WLP001, WY1056, Fermentis US05) so as not to generate a lot of fruity esters that might interfere with your malt and hop profile.

Another example might be a Bock. "You want Munich malt? "I'll give you Munich malt!" Two-thirds light Munich, one-third dark Munich, then an extra pound of Melanoidin malt. One charge of German hops for bittering only, preferably something like Tradition that is a little higher alpha to reduce the hop bulk and the possible vegetal flavors you get from that. Ferment with the cleanest possible lager yeast you can find, like WLP833 or 838. Now you have a true malt showcase with the appropriate German character with nothing to interfere or to detract.

I don't disagree with Bill's suggestion to brew towards the upper end of the style guidelines, but I would caution you to always keep balance and cleanness first and foremost in your brewing. I am reminded of the advice I received from my primary flight instructor lo, these many years ago: "Basic airwork is key. If you've got decent basic airwork, and you're smooth, you can goon it up to a certain degree and you'll still be OK." What he meant, parenthetically, is that nobody would notice you gooning it up a bit as long as you were smooth about it and trending towards a correction for the deviation. Same thing with brewing: As long as you are keeping harmony and balance in mind, while still featuring those characteristics that need to be featured in a particular style, you'll do well.

Bottom line? Clean, clean, clean. Avoid muddling up your recipe by throwing the kitchen sink in there. Select those features of the style that need to be featured, choose a few ingredients (traditional or not) that will do it, and brew away. Good luck and God bless."
End quote



This guy sent 9 beers on to the next round brewing on his stovetop in the kitchen. It's all in appealling to what the judges are looking for, and I like to brew for my own tastes.

So I guess no one will ever know my name like they know Jamil(22 beers to rd 2), but I like what I make.

niquejim said:

So I guess no one will ever know my name like they know Jamil(22 beers to rd 2), but I like what I make.

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That's what is important to me - brewing something that I and my friends like to drink. I can't drink ribbons or medals or score sheets.

BBQ competitions are no different. You either brew to sway the local judges or brew to make beer you like to drink.

You can have beers that kick ass in one competition and score just OK in another. It the luck of the draw some times that your beer gets judged by an experienced BJCP judge or some guy just helping out that day.

I find the best judge is the amount of time it takes for a keg to blow at a party.

EdWort said:

I find the best judge is the amount of time it takes for a keg to blow at a party.

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Truer words have never been spoken

When a friend who I taught to brew was talking to a co-worker I overheard him say "Of the 10 best beers I've ever had, 2-3 came from his(points at me) garage." It really made me feel good

Ed, one of your fellows Zealots(Chris Colby) got into a heated discussion about this over at Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service: Gabf medals

It's a good read

EdWort said:

I find the best judge is the amount of time it takes for a keg to blow at a party.

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I love the fact that you said this. Someone talked on HBT a while ago how they noticed that people drifted back to BMC at parties where their homebrew was still available. The universal response from the crowd was that those people don't know beer but I had to disagree.

I would think the absolute harshest critic of my beer would be that person who says "mmm, good" on one of my beers and then picks a BMC for their second. It used to happen to me all the time. Because I went all frou frou on them. Big everything. ABV, Malt, Hops, adjuncts, fruit, etc.

At first it was delicious and would probably do well at competition but on second taste it just became too much. Now 90% of my beers are simple brews. Medium, but simple grain bill, balanced hops, almost no adjuncts.

In a word, boring. At least to judges. But BMC gathers dust when my beers are available now.

carnevoodoo said:

...I never expect to win anything, and my scores for this beer were still in the high 30s...

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Lucky. I got a 30 from each of my judges.

They thought it was too malty. I like malty IPA's.

An anecdotal example of how beers that are brewed to "the limit" score better was the Best of Show. I have the recipe from the winner and it was an APA brewed to 1.059 and IBU's of 49. Each, right at the brink.

Regardless of what one thinks of competitions, I'd encourage brewers who want to improve to enter their beers and use the feedback.

I entered 9 beers last year and none of them scored above a 29. I was initially pissed. Then I decided to pay attention to the notes...sample my beers along side the score sheet and guess what...they were right. They weren't that good.

I entered 8 beers this year and the 30 score (mentioned above) was my lowest score.

• APA: 39, 41 (2nd place)
• Stout: 31, 32
• StoneHedge (Wood Aged): 31, 32
• RIS888: 39, 41 (good scores, but didn't place)
• Loon Lake (smoked): 32, 33 (3rd Place)
• Captain Hooked: 42, 43 (1st Place)
• Bells IPA: 30, 30
• Tender & Mild: 36, 37 (3rd Place)

There's no way I'd have improved my recipes and process without taking the criticism and setting about to fix my flaws.

BierMuncher said:

Regardless of what one thinks of competitions, I'd encourage brewers who want to improve to enter their beers and use the feedback.

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I think this is important advice. When I get my kegging stuff setup and am finally able to get consistent carbonation I'm going to start entering.

It's nice to win but that's not what's important. Take their feedback, compare it against your own thoughts and the feedback of others. Sometimes it will help, sometimes you will disregard it, but you beers will improve.

Brewing to win is different than brewing for everyday drinking, each one is a reasonable thing to do but it's important to keep in mind which you are aiming for. If you really want the medals then look at who is winning them and why, learn from those who have what you want. Otherwise just brew what you like and take the feedback.