Stout with only roasted barley (and 2-row)?

Has anybody tried this? Ray Daniels indicates in the section on stouts in DGB that most commercial stouts he used for datapoints included only roasted barley in addition to the base malt. Apparently this brews a great stout, but perhaps not differentiated much from others (especially in competition).

I'm interested in brewing a very basic, good stout. Has anybody tried this? I'm thinking as an experiment that I could then use as a base for "more interesting" recipes:
~90% 2-row (maybe a pound of flaked barley)
~10% roasted barley
BU:GU of 1:1
Irish Ale yeast

I brewed this and it turned out freaking awesome. I actually brewed it to 5.5 gal to keep it inside the guidelines. My BU:GU ratio wasn't as high as 1, but I'm sure that would be good. Keep it simple and you'll be really happy with it.
This is now my house stout and is definitely staying exactly the way it is.

Hers is the profile I used from my simple stout which turned out great. You could skip the malted wheat, but I would recommend including the flaked barley to help maintain a mild taste (less malty) IMHO.
I used EKG for the only hops addition (Kettle). Gravity was just about dead on, although a little higher then most traditional Stouts.

Sweet, guys! (see how important punctuation is??) Good to know I'm barking up the right tree for once.

Baron von BeeGee said:

Sweet, guys! (see how important punctuation is??)

Click to expand...

LOL

Great minds think alike.

The profiles for these stouts are so dead on.

Hey glib, what was the reason you used wheat, head retention?

Chairman Cheyco said:

Hey glib, what was the reason you used wheat, head retention?

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Yes, typically I'll use 3-6% for head retention.

See, I thought it was unmalted wheat that was used for head retention, or is it both?

You can use both, but unmalted will give you a greater chance of having haze in the final beer. Typically, you should use malted. I've stopped using it in my last few brews and haven't had any trouble with head retention at all.

About 3% - 5% of the grain bill for the wheat? That about right?

Well, this one got kegged tonight (I'm fasttracking it a bit to help the pipeline), and boy did it dry out! 1.010 FG which sounds great. I think the roastiness will give it sufficient body along with carbonation. The flavor is just exactly what I was looking for...thanks CC & glibbidy!

I think I'm going to try something similar for my next stout, although I like chocolate malt, so I think some will end up in there. I like to use flaked barley for head retention. Makes it nice and creamy without beer gas.

Yeah, I couldn't really make heads or tells of the flaked barley sans CO2 but I think it'll be nice. At least I've liked it when I've used it before. I may experiment with chocolate or kiln coffee malt on a future batch.

I was puting together a recipe the other night and I just checked it. Here's what mine is going to look like:

8.5 lbs 2-row (British)
0.5 lbs Roasted Barley
0.5 lbs Chocolate Malt
0.5 lbs Flaked Barley

2 oz EKG 60 min

White Labs 004 Irish Ale Yeast

Nice and simple.

Very similar to mine, with the exception of replacing some of the RB with chocolate and I was a little heavier handed with the hops:

Old Blood and Guts

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 11.00
Anticipated OG: 1.048 Plato: 12.03
Anticipated SRM: 26.7
Anticipated IBU: 44.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
18.2 2.00 lbs. Flaked Barley America 1.032 2
72.7 8.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) America 1.036 2
9.1 1.00 lbs. Roasted Barley Great Britain 1.029 350

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
76.00 g. Goldings - E.K. Whole 4.75 44.8 60 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1084 Irish Ale

What's that 76g? About 2.5-3 oz?

Yep, 2.75oz. I figured a stout could handle 0.9-1.0 BU:GU. I'll see how it goes and adjust as need be.

Yeah, I'm going a little lighter with the hops. It's a bit of a compromise between me and my friends. If it's too hoppy or bitter, they won't touch it.

I use about 80% pale ale malt, 5% flaked barley & 5% roasted barley.

I also used 5% sugar and US-56 yeast to get the good attenuation of a dry stout but I wasn't pleased with it. The yeast gave flavours which weren't very stout-like.

I got 79% ADF with the Irish Ale yeast which surprised me, but I mashed low, had plenty of fermentables, and oxygenated the wort pretty well.

After initial disappointment, this beer actually tastes like a stout now. Not knock your socks of wow this guy can brew good, but I'll drink it. Two things:
1) My roasted barley was around 350L. WTH? It should be like 550L. That probably had a negative impact on the flavor.
2) My hopping rate, while probably not as much of a flaw as my botched roasted barley, was a tad high. I'll take it into the 0.6-0.8 range next time.

Baron, I'm going to brew this when I visit you guys in April.

I can't brew a good stout here because of the water--and when I try to treat it I get a weird sourness--so I'll just wait until April to try again.

These recipes look great. This is exactly what I want.

FWIW, I just brewed mine again and it turned out awesome. Kept the BU:GU to 0.75 again as well, and used NB hops for the mintyness. Easily one of my best beers.

Mine was a slight deviation to the two ingredients, but I really like it. I'm not a huge fan of tons of roasted flavor in a lower gravity stout, and mine is about perfect.

8.5 lbs 2-row
0.5 lb. Roasted Barley
0.5 lb. Chocolate Malt
0.5 lb. Flaked Barley

1 60 min addition of EKG's for 37 IBU's

WLP-004

OG: 1.050

BU:GU is right about 0.75

I don't think I'll change this recipe. I'll keep it as the house Dry Stout. If I want something bigger, roastier and hoppier I'll do an American Stout.

Dude...cool. I like mine as of yesterday, but I think it would be really good with the proper roasted barley. My LHBS kind of pisses me off sometimes, but I do like the guys and having them around so I try to give them half my business anyways.

CC, I'm definitely dropping the hopping rate down. It's not that bad, but you do get some overt hoppiness with mine which is a bit odd in a stout. It doesn't need to be winter for me to enjoy a stout, so I might give it another shot this spring.

Brewsmith, my next step after I get this basic recipe "right" is to start experimenting with other malts like chocolate, kilned coffee malt, maybe carafa (just the German equivalent, I know, but the deshusked stuff is really smooth).

Baron von BeeGee said:

Brewsmith, my next step after I get this basic recipe "right" is to start experimenting with other malts like chocolate, kilned coffee malt, maybe carafa (just the German equivalent, I know, but the deshusked stuff is really smooth).

Click to expand...

Bump. Well, I think after not brewing any stouts for a while, I'm ready to take this cause back up. I wasn't blown away from my initial effort, and I really think this is due to the light roasted barley that my LHBS sells in the 300-350L range instead of the 500L stuff. I'd like to just order the good stuff from Austin or Northern, but I need to go by the LHBS anyways, so I'm going to try it again.

This time I will add some chocolate malt as Brewsmith suggests, and since the LHBS has then in the 415-450L range it should help with color and 'stoutness'. I'm also going to lower the IBU's as Cheyco and et al. recommend, probably in the 0.7 range. I'm not sure if I'll go with a liquid Irish yeast, or some dry yeast.


7# 2-row
2# flaked barley
1# roasted barley (300L)
1/2-3/4# chocolate malt (415L)
2.25 oz EKG @ 4.75AAU = 36IBU

Baron von BeeGee said:

7# 2-row
2# flaked barley
1# roasted barley (300L)
1/2-3/4# chocolate malt (415L)
2.25 oz EKG @ 4.75AAU = 36IBU

Click to expand...

FWIW, my house dry stout is typically:
6.0 lb English 2-row Pale
1.75 lb Barley Flaked
13.0 oz Roast Barley
2.0 oz Acidulated Malt
1.5 oz Willamette (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min (32.8 IBU)
White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale

I tossed in 6oz of chocolate malt in the last batch and I prefer the original recipe.

brewt00l said:

FWIW, my house dry stout is typically:
6.0 lb English 2-row Pale
1.75 lb Barley Flaked
13.0 oz Roast Barley
2.0 oz Acidulated Malt
1.5 oz Willamette (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min (32.8 IBU)
White Labs WLP007 Dry English Ale

I tossed in 6oz of chocolate malt in the last batch and I prefer the original recipe.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I have a feeling I really need to get the 2-row/flaked barley/roasted barley grist down pat before complicating matters, but this stupid 300L roasted barley is driving me nuts. The original recipe posted in this thread looked more like a dark brown ale than a stout. If it's not up to par this time around I'll brew another one in quick succession using proper ingredients from Austin or Northern.

What are you guys getting for FG on these stouts? I did a partial mash kit from my LHBS and used a WLP004 liquid yeast. Its was in primary for a month and has been in secondary for 2 weeks. Last time I checked it was sitting right around 1.026. Started at 1.061 I think. I was expecting it to get down to 1.015 or so per the kits instruction sheet.

I pitched a pack of rehydrated safeale S05 on top of it when it went into secondary, but never saw any evidence of fermentation. I need to go and check it again to see where it sits.

Stinkonamonkey said:

What are you guys getting for FG on these stouts?

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It's pretty hard to compare just due to the vagaries of fermentation, differences in procedure, ingredients, etc. The first recipe I posted went from 1.049 to 1.010.

If you started around 1.061 that's reasonably strong and you would want a good (high) pitching rate plus oxygenation to really ensure full fermentation. On top of that, your Irish ale yeast doesn't attenuate as much as other yeasts, so it will leave some fermentables on the table, as well.

How much did you pitch, and did you aerate/oxygenate?

holy necroposts!!!!

isn't charlie p's stout recipe 80% two row, 10% flaked and 10% roast barley? two oz of ekg kettle hops?

Baron von BeeGee said:

It's pretty hard to compare just due to the vagaries of fermentation, differences in procedure, ingredients, etc. The first recipe I posted went from 1.049 to 1.010.

If you started around 1.061 that's reasonably strong and you would want a good (high) pitching rate plus oxygenation to really ensure full fermentation. On top of that, your Irish ale yeast doesn't attenuate as much as other yeasts, so it will leave some fermentables on the table, as well.

How much did you pitch, and did you aerate/oxygenate?

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I just pitched the tube of yeast. I added 2 gallons of cold water to the 3.5 gallons of wort I boiled. Shook it for a min or two.

uglygoat said:

holy necroposts!!!!

isn't charlie p's stout recipe 80% two row, 10% flaked and 10% roast barley? two oz of ekg kettle hops?

Click to expand...

I originally started with the Pope's recipe that is 70/20/10
Dry Stout

Baron von BeeGee said:

Yeah, I have a feeling I really need to get the 2-row/flaked barley/roasted barley grist down pat before complicating matters, but this stupid 300L roasted barley is driving me nuts. The original recipe posted in this thread looked more like a dark brown ale than a stout. If it's not up to par this time around I'll brew another one in quick succession using proper ingredients from Austin or Northern.

Click to expand...

It's still a very good beer with the chocolate malt addition. Right now I just prefer the malt profile of the beer with out it in the mix as there is a little more definition between the various flavors...the chocolate sorta bridges the different elements to a degree.

Just to bring my recipe back from the dead...

Mine was:
8.5 lbs 2-Row
0.5 Lb. Roasted Barley
0.5 Lb. Chocolate
0.5 Lb. Flaked Barley

It turned out good, but not quite roasty enough. I'd make the following changes:

8 lbs. 2-Row
1 lb. Flaked Barley
10 oz. Roasted Barley
0.5 lb. Chocolate

I think this would come out about right, bumping the roast up about 2 oz. and subbing in a little more flaked barley. I don't know when I'll brew it, but it will be coming.

I've always gone the simple route with my Dry Irish Stout: 80% Pale, 10% flaked barley, 10% roasted barley. Mashed at 152, fermented with a fairly underattenuating ale yeast like Windsor or Ringwood (my favorite).

Never had a complaint!

Bob

Brewsmith, that's pretty close to what I'm contemplating. I'll compare notes in ~6 weeks!

It's in the beer gods' hands (and the keg)! More in a week or two.

Old Blood and Guts II
-------------------------------
7.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row)
2.00 lbs. Flaked Barley
1.00 lbs. Roasted Barley
0.50 lbs. Chocolate Malt

Hops
-------------------------
2.00 oz. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 4.50 34.6 60 min.

Yeast
-----
Dry Nottingham

Have you tried the recipe without the chocolate?

65% pale / 25% flaked / 10% roasted is the key for me... Took me almost 10 iterations to get to this grain bill...

I would guess you are adding chocolate to mellow out the roasted flavor while keeping the SRM up.. I am not sure it is the best path (Tried it.. Good beer, but not incredible).

More flaked barley will give a nice mellow mouthfeel.. My LHBS owner recommends up to 40% flaked barley. At this point I get stuck mash though, that's why I use 25% flaked...

The biggest flavor improvement I had was with water adjustment. I have moderately soft water, perfect for pale ales, but when brewing stouts, I balance the acidity of the dark grain with calcium carbonate (chalk) and baking soda (1 teaspoon of each per 5 gallons).. I elaborated this mixture while trying to replicate Dublin water. YMMV, but I find the resulting beer much less assertive.

sorry for the preaching.. I brewed so many stouts trying to get the perfect recipe that I just could not resist pitching in the thread..