I just recently bought and built my keezer.This weekend was the breaking in get together.The beer tasted great but of course the night was not without its problems.There was psi questions . When I first kegged the beer I left it at 20 psi for two days and then 11 ish for about a week. The first couple of beers about a 1/4 beer and 3/4 foam. I turned it down to about 5psi and ,released the pressure valve.We got a lot better pours. The problem was 20 min later the pressure was back up the 10 psi or so.This happened all night. What's going on ?? Is the beer itself over carbed causing the pressure to go back up? Or is the something wrong with the regulater. Thanks for any help
first kegging experience
- Thread starter doug1395
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shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
One, get longer hoses, that should help your foam problem, (I'm guessing you have 5' 3/16" bev hose. You want 10' per tap).
The reason your pressure came back up is because the beer still had 10 PSI of CO2 in it. You turned your reg down to 5, so the tank was only putting 5 into the keg, but CO2 came out of solution in the keg until it returned to equilibrium, (which in your case was 10 PSI).
This is kind of good news, since it means you didn't overcarb your beer, (if keg pressure had gone up to 15 PSI, it would have meant you overshot carbonation by 5 PSI...(15-10=5, see?)). I find to dispense at 10 PSI you really need 10 feet of line.
(Other issues could be your lines are too warm, etc....do you have bubbles in the line when you just look at it? My first advice is still longer lines though, and get that beer back to 10 PSI...or else it will slowly go flat!)
The reason your pressure came back up is because the beer still had 10 PSI of CO2 in it. You turned your reg down to 5, so the tank was only putting 5 into the keg, but CO2 came out of solution in the keg until it returned to equilibrium, (which in your case was 10 PSI).
This is kind of good news, since it means you didn't overcarb your beer, (if keg pressure had gone up to 15 PSI, it would have meant you overshot carbonation by 5 PSI...(15-10=5, see?)). I find to dispense at 10 PSI you really need 10 feet of line.
(Other issues could be your lines are too warm, etc....do you have bubbles in the line when you just look at it? My first advice is still longer lines though, and get that beer back to 10 PSI...or else it will slowly go flat!)
shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
Yup, Kegconnection ships 5' lines by default, (I know, cuz that's where my setup came from too!). Spend the few bucks for 10' lines and you will be most happy.
Frank99
Well-Known Member
+1 for the 10' 3/16 bev line.
The 5' standard gave me a glass full of foam on every pour.
The 5' standard gave me a glass full of foam on every pour.
That's um awsome ,you know sometimes it just dosent matter how you read ya just miss things.I read a lot about peaple talking about 10 ft lines and about how happy peaple were with kegconnection .I didn't even ask.
shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
You need 3/16" tubing. It should be bev grade thick walled. Best place is your LHBS....hardware stores only carry the thin wall stuff, which drops pressure too quick and has rough inner walls, both of which will make your foaming problem worse.
This is one time where you can't substitute cheap hardware store fare for the real thing.
I agree with everyone above that you should upgrade to the 10' of beer line. It makes a world of difference. If that along with adjusting the pressure doesn't cure your foaming issues, here are two things to check:
1. Make sure that your temp is correct. If your temp probe is in the upper part of your keezer, the lower portion could be below freezing temps, causing your beer to be at or below freezing temps, which would effect the carbing levels.
2. You could have a bad regulator. Sometimes the diaphragm in the regulator gets old. They sell kits to fix these. This is the problem that I ran into when I first set up my keezer. I had gottne a full set up off of Craigslist. Everything looked to be in order, but when I kegged my first batch, I got all foam coming out at a high rate of speed. I had the regulator set for 12 psi. I lowered it to what read 5 psi, but had the same results. What was happening was that the diaphragm in the regulator was not doing it's job of limiting the pressure, so I was likely carbing at something like 40-60 psi (guessing). I tinkered with the regulator until I got it to something semi acceptable. SWMBO bought me a new regulator for Christmas. No problems since. I still have the old regulator that I will get around to fixing one of these days...
1. Make sure that your temp is correct. If your temp probe is in the upper part of your keezer, the lower portion could be below freezing temps, causing your beer to be at or below freezing temps, which would effect the carbing levels.
2. You could have a bad regulator. Sometimes the diaphragm in the regulator gets old. They sell kits to fix these. This is the problem that I ran into when I first set up my keezer. I had gottne a full set up off of Craigslist. Everything looked to be in order, but when I kegged my first batch, I got all foam coming out at a high rate of speed. I had the regulator set for 12 psi. I lowered it to what read 5 psi, but had the same results. What was happening was that the diaphragm in the regulator was not doing it's job of limiting the pressure, so I was likely carbing at something like 40-60 psi (guessing). I tinkered with the regulator until I got it to something semi acceptable. SWMBO bought me a new regulator for Christmas. No problems since. I still have the old regulator that I will get around to fixing one of these days...
Ill been to busy today to call my local brew shop but I will make sure I buy a thick walled bev line.I don't think it is my regulator because its only to weeks old. However you made a good point about my beer being to cold. My stat says 38 deg but moisture on the sides of the freezer freezes.none of my beer bottles hove ever had ice in them though??
The ideas outlined in this thread have worked well for many people with foaming issues..
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/cure-your-short-hose-troubles-100151/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/cure-your-short-hose-troubles-100151/
SouthernYankee
Well-Known Member
Darn, you beat me too it!
I checked out the thread but I really don't see the difference in buying those plastic inserts compared to 10 feet of hose other than saving a few feet of line? Can't you just curl up the line with tie wraps neatly? I really didn't get it did I miss something?Keep in mind I'm new to this.Thanks
Oh this weekend I went down to my lhbs and bought new 10 ft bev line.I also turned the temp. Of my keezer up a few degrees. It is still not pouring great but much much better.I still have another problem the beer is comming out very slow!I turned the co disconnect off and blead the co out of the regulater and it goes right back to 10 lbs turn the disconnect back on and its just a little more than a trickle?? I did not do a secondary ferment could my line be cloged?? Anybody have any more advice . Thanks
Well, one of the reasons it doesn't foam so much now is because of the longer lines. That also means you'll get a slower pour. It shouldn't be trickling, though. It should take about 10 seconds or so to pour a glass of beer.
shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
The necessity of a secondary ferment for most beers is debatable, whether you are kegging or not. A keg is a big bottle.
So, if you like to secondary, and you secondaried while bottling, you should/can secondary while kegging. If you don't see the need to secondary while bottling, you don't need to while kegging.
I don't use secondaries much at all, (only for apfelwein, and I'm thinking of changing this), and I keg, but the two aren't directly related. If I bottled, I'd still probably go straight from primary to bottling.
For one that is getting his kegging system in a couple of days, I don't quite understand the advice to get a 10 ft. 3/16" serving line.
Assuming pale ale, approximately 2.4 volumes at 40 degrees(11 psi regulator setting), a 1 psi serving pressure, 3/16" line, and a tap serving maybe 2 feet above the center of the keg, every calculator I've played with says around 4 feet of serving line. If I mount a tap higher, I'd need an even shorter line.
Are the calculator line resistances THAT far off? What am I missing?
Assuming pale ale, approximately 2.4 volumes at 40 degrees(11 psi regulator setting), a 1 psi serving pressure, 3/16" line, and a tap serving maybe 2 feet above the center of the keg, every calculator I've played with says around 4 feet of serving line. If I mount a tap higher, I'd need an even shorter line.
Are the calculator line resistances THAT far off? What am I missing?
shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
Your serving pressure should be at your carbonation pressure, or 11 PSI at this case.
Online calculators typically come out at 5-8 feet for that pressure, but I have found, (as have many others), that 5 feet isn't enough. For me, 10' works great. Slightly slow pours, (around 10 seconds per pint), but I get beer exactly how I like. I get nearly no foam when pouring, and then at the end I only open my tap partway, which builds a nice head on top.
What online calculator is that?? I've tried many online calculators, all were in the 3-4 feet range for 3/16" line.
A "typical" online calculator formula:
L = (P -(H x .5) – 1 ) / R
Where:
L = length of beer line in feet
P = pressure set of regulator
H = total height from center of keg to faucet in feet
R = resistance of the line from the following table
1 = residual pressure remaining at faucet (this can be increased to 2 if you need to increase pressure to increase dispense rate)
R for 3/16” ID plastic beer line 2.7, H=2 ft,
L=(11-(2x.5)-1)/2.7 or 3.333 feet, not 5-8 feet! If the calcs are a bit low, as you say, the stock 5 feet would be good.
Anyone here have a good experience with using a picnic tap and 5 ft. of 3/16" (typical) beer line? (For american ales and such with around 11 psi/2.4 volumes or so)
Rich
shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
OK, so I should have said "3-5 feet"....point is, calculators always come out with lower numbers than what I have found to work, (and what others have written here about what works). I started with 5', went to 10', and no longer had foaming issues, (picnic taps, line coiled in fridge, everything at the same temp, etc.)...and I've seen others give the same response...
Also, searching around for pressure drop in 3/16" tube, you'll find numbers ranging from 1.5 to 3 psi/foot, (your "R" in your equations...), so this isn't an exact science...
In the end, you do whatever works...I'm just telling you what has worked for me.
Sorry Doug, I missed this question initially.
The whole "balanced line" equation assumes some pressure left after all the pressure losses due to faucet and line resistance, and the height of the faucet above the keg. So if you start with, say, 11 psi at the regulator, then start subtracting calculated psi for the line and tap resistance and the height, you want to have at least 1 psi left over for a reasonable flow, but not much more as that will cause foaming.
What I'm finally discovering(from other responses and doing some searches) is that these line resistances can vary alot. Looking at some of the other threads dealing vinyl or plasticy taste, some of the better lines have smoother insides meaning less resistance. Some diameters are not well controlled. In addition, gauge accuracy will have an impact and I've now discovered that one should add some pressure for higher altitude.
Looks like trial and error in line length may often be necessary to be able to serve at the right pressure.
Rich
Frank99
Well-Known Member
As far as I'm concerned, the calculators didn't work for me as a 5 ft line should have worked fine. I took the advice from the experts on this forum and went with a 10ft 3/16 line and the foam went away.
I want to give an up date but first ,thanks for everyone input.ok. I have good news. I left it alone for a couple of days now(did not change the psi or open the bleeder valve) and I had a couple of good pours last knight. Not great but good .Right from the first pour I had very little foam.so I added a 10 ft of line and raised the temp of my keezer a couple of degrees.My only complaint is its taking a long time to pour. Well over 10 sec. I'm guessing more in the 15 sec range.I will continue to play with it to figeur out the right combination. Thanks
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