English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

I used the same amazon trick to get the same thing, but I also tried making some invert #2 (earlier in thread). I have yet to use either because Life just gets in the way of important brewing sometimes.

I, for one, pretty much had to push the envelope of my own brewing adventures to learn new things. Book two of my home brewing series is another. Just gotta wait till retiree pay day to get the other ingredients. Then mayb a saison again? Idk. Maybe research some old English beer next?

unionrdr said:

Maybe research some old English beer next?

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Awwwww yeeeeaaaaah

lowtones84 said:

Awwwww yeeeeaaaaah

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This needs a small paper bag wrapped around it for carrying purposes.

Qhrumphf said:

I get my treacle (and my Ribena) from a British goods importer up the road. Haven't seen treacle anywhere else, and I'll smack anyone who says its the same as molasses.

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Gonna have to see if you can slap this far too!

Treacle is just another name for molasses. Treacle/molasses is any uncrystallized sugar that occurs as a byproduct of the sugar refining process. It occurs in two forms: pale treacle or pale syrup and dark or black treacle. I would suggest that the main differences in flavors between something sold in the UK as black treacle and the very same product sold in the US as blackstrap molasses only occurs because of minute differences in the individual sugar mill's processes. For my money blackstrap molasses is completely interchangeable for brewing purposes with black treacle imported from the UK.

Cheers!

Puddlethumper said:

Gonna have to see if you can slap this far too!

Treacle is just another name for molasses. Treacle/molasses is any uncrystallized sugar that occurs as a byproduct of the sugar refining process. It occurs in two forms: pale treacle or pale syrup and dark or black treacle. I would suggest that the main differences in flavors between something sold in the UK as black treacle and the very same product sold in the US as blackstrap molasses only occurs because of minute differences in the individual sugar mill's processes. For my money blackstrap molasses is completely interchangeable for brewing purposes with black treacle imported from the UK.

Cheers!

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Well they certainly taste different to me. They're definitely very similar, but based on palate alone I find them distinctly different. If, like you say, that's minute differences in the processes, that's fine. But they still taste different.

Qhrumphf said:

Well they certainly taste different to me. They're definitely very similar, but based on palate alone I find them distinctly different. If, like you say, that's minute differences in the processes, that's fine. But they still taste different.

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As I was thinking on this this afternoon it occurred to me that while technically treacle and molasses are different words for the same thing, I can see where there is plenty of opportunity for the finished products delivered to different markets having some very detectable differences. After a little digging I have learned a little more and perhaps if we still have some folks from the UK on this thread they can add something to the discussion.

Most US sugar comes either from sugar beets or from cane. Beets grown in California and Idaho, cane from the Gulf Coast states and Hawaii. (Hurricanes have pretty well devastated sugar production in Florida and cane production in the Carribbean is less than half of what it was just 30 years ago.) British sugar production has traditionally come from beets grown in the UK. Some British cane sugar does come from India and a few other tropical regions. And the British have had their own sugar supply chain in place for several centuries. The American supply chain grew up as a separate industry and I haven't found much evidence that either sells much sugar into the other's markets. So yes, there are differences in their sources. And it might be safe to assume there are also differences in their processes.

Detectable to the palette? Your call.

Puddlethumper said:

As I was thinking on this this afternoon it occurred to me that while technically treacle and molasses are different words for the same thing, I can see where there is plenty of opportunity for the finished products delivered to different markets having some very detectable differences. After a little digging I have learned a little more and perhaps if we still have some folks from the UK on this thread they can add something to the discussion.

Most US sugar comes either from sugar beets or from cane. Beets grown in California and Idaho, cane from California and Hawaii. (Hurricanes have pretty well devastated sugar production in Florida.) British sugar production has traditionally come from beets grown in the UK. Some British cane sugar does come from India and a few other tropical regions. And the British have had their own sugar supply chain in place for several centuries. The American supply chain grew up as a separate industry and I haven't found much evidence that either sells much sugar into the other's markets. So yes, there are differences in their sources. And it might be safe to assume there are also differences in their processes.

Detectable to the palette? Your call.

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It could also be the same thing as with English beers found in the US (or US beers found in the UK). Now I would expect a thick sugary syrup like treacle or molasses to be highly shelf stable, so I don't know. But it could be age/oxidation/handling/whatever that creates a different flavor.

Qhrumphf said:

It could also be the same thing as with English beers found in the US (or US beers found in the UK). Now I would expect a thick sugary syrup like treacle or molasses to be highly shelf stable, so I don't know. But it could be age/oxidation/handling/whatever that creates a different flavor.

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That could be too. It would be interesting to get a bottle of each and just do a blind taste test.

The deeper I get into this the more interesting it gets.

The blackstrap molasses we get here tastes completely different to T&L treacle. Molasses tends to have an ashy quality to it, or at least the ones I've tried here do

It's also a bit confusing when people say treacle to mean any syrup, I remember a Can You Brew It (i think) episode where the guy interviewed from the uk says they used treacle and I it was really brewers syrup that he meant, so they ballsed up their first attempt

It can certainly work in plenty of recipes but I suspect if its based on a commercial ale then it's been subbed for one of the darker brewers syrups that aren't available for homebrewers

And also Ragus gives the colour for treacle at above 1200 EBC, so the figure of 80 SRM from beer smith seems a bit out

I'd certainly think its more than 80srm

Blackstrap molasses tastes drier and more 'burnt' than black treacle.

That's where I find it interesting that black treacle is said to be molasses, invert sugar, & golden corn syrup. So maybe it's all in the sources & processing? The T & L black treacle I have coming in tomorrow is said to be a mixture of the three. I'm interested to see what the can might divulge?

I may have noticed a slight metallic flavor when using molasses or brown sugar in the kettle at flameout in some spiced ale I made. I never noticed that off-flavor when Treacle was added to a secondary (or barrel). Our club did an Old Treacle Mine (from BCS) collaboration to fill a wooden rum barrel that had been used for a commercial craft beer previously. We used 6 cans of Treacle when filling the rum pickled barrel.

Sadly, 6 months later we were staring at 55 gallons of sour "old ale." It definitely got infected with acetobacter and most likely Brett. Only barely palatable to some, I find it actually very pleasing. I still have 2 kegs of it "aging out." I use it to blend old ales into imperial "Oud Bruins" a la Le Terroir/La Folie.

I found it interesting that, when I added the molasses & honey to my kottbusser after primary, the flavor changed a little. Before the addition, the gravity sample tasted like the hint of sweetness & dry finish kottbusser is said to have. After the additions fermented out & I tried some bottles, it tasted like a saison? That one got unsulphured molasses & clover honey. This black treacle is supposed to be just dark & sweet. I still have the jar of molasses, so maybe try a taste of each?

unionrdr said:

Yeah, I'll have to calculate that 28-day mark! 100 bucks could by stuff for 2-3 batches of beer!

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Yeah, that's darn right! IF you know you won't order anything else before those 30 days have passed, you may as well cancel NOW!

These companies rely on people's laxness, forgetfulness, "mis"understanding, or sheer ignorance for not reading the fine print, of what they're signing up for.

They call it a "plan" but really it's more of a "ploy." It also revolves every year, and when you see your credit card has been charged it's too late. They won't send you an opt-out notice beforehand, now, do they?

If they had the "courtesy" to charge you only $1 for the (first) 30 days, that converts to a yearly "ploy" of $99 after those 30 days are over, you could cancel the minute after you signed up and paid your $1. It would still be valid for the 30 days since you paid for it. I wonder if that holds true for this "free trial," but seriously doubt it. They've got a team of well-paid lawyers, ya know...

So CANCEL NOW or MARK THAT dreaded 28th DAY!

Yeah, I saw the $1 on my on-line statement. I might use it one more time, but I'll ditch it before the time's up. Money better spent elsewhere. I got it marked on the calendar just the same. Gotta wait till Monday to order the rest of the Burton ingredients, so maybe I'll see what they have vs a supply site for cheaper?...

Well, I finally figured out that the UPS guy didn't put my package by the door. In the mailbox instead, which it barely fit?! The can only says, " Made from cane molasses". no mention of invert sugar & gold corn syrup?

...and it tastes like....?

The more I read about this the more I come across a common point - molasses or treacle about have to be made from cane sugar. The sources I'm seeing indicate that beet sugar has some stuff in it that makes the molasses/treacle pretty much unsuitable for human consumption but ok for livestock feed

Now I've got myself curious. I'm going to have to pick up some blackstrap and some treacle and do my own side by side evaluation. You lot have me doubting myself.

Just to clarify, Britain has traditionally grown beets for sugar production but all the stuff used in beer is cane sugar based since they developed the cane sugar industry in the West Indies. As usual, a big proportion of things used in Britain have traditionally been imported (hops, grains, sugar, etc.).

Just goes to show what a relatively small industry sugar beet production has been for the last three centuries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_plantations_in_the_Caribbean

Lol, I was wrong. Beet sugar production is much more recent, not happening in Britain until the 1920s. So definitively not used in beer as there has been a strong link between cane sugar and brewing for centuries. Beet definitively not traditional.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_beet

Since I have a new camera & tripod, I'm going to do a video of a taste comparison. Darn stormy weather's making the room dark. I definitely need some lighting in here. I have the unsulphured molasses & the black treacle for the comparison. The unsulphured molasses was what I used in my kottbusser.

I am ordering ingredients soon after a short break from all grain, I did do an extract kit and turbo cider to keep me ticking over

I'm thinking of doing all british ales and porters for the whole sack

A bitter, to build up yeast

Then definately a Burton, an oatmalt stout and export stout and then I'm not sure, perhaps a golden ale or two

So what single White Labs yeast would you pick if doing all those beers? I just want to stick to one yeast for the whole lot. Something that is easy to use and a true top cropper

I am though considering trying out the Wibblers yeast as they sell it on their website, they got it from Crouch Vale who in turn got it from Ridleys

Or just culturing up some from a bottle of say St Austell or Thwaites and using that

Thoughts?

Not a specialist, but WLP023 sounds potentially interesting by what I've read. The Whitbread strains do take a beating, though, and are malleable to fit most styles.

Looks good. I've only used WLP013, WLP002 and WLP007 from them before and they were all good, just fancy something different.

Might culture up some up from dregs anyway and toss it in to get a mixed culture

I'm partial to Wyeast 1469, but if you're bound to White Labs I'd second WLP023.

Hanglow said:

Looks good. I've only used WLP013, WLP002 and WLP007 from them before and they were all good, just fancy something different.

Might culture up some up from dregs anyway and toss it in to get a mixed culture

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I was going to suggest WLP007, but I see you've already mentioned you are looking for something different. I think it's a great, very versatile English yeast.

I'm going to do a Burton strong ale next. I'm thinking of using the Burton ale yeast this time. Also got black treacle from amazon, & going to use dark candi sugar as well.

Yeah, I want to try that black treacle stuff too. I'll look for it at amazon.

I made a English blend of something yesterday. I don't know what you call it, but I have hopes. I just thought it would be a good summer session ale.

4.5 lbs MO
3 lbs light wheat
1 lb flaked wheat
8 oz honey malt

1 oz fuggles @ 60 min
.5 oz fuggles @ 20 and 2 min

mashed at 154F, 60 min boil.
Pitched a packet of 04 and it's bubbling away down in the 63F cellar. The heat of fermentation has bumped up the fermenter temp to 68F. I usually use 1469, but I didn't think ahead to make a starter. I'm looking forward to kegging this one up.

Kind of a British bready, caramel wheat ale...

There used to be British wheat ales but mostly sour. Search for West Country White Ale.

Ordered Muntons Extra Pale as my base malt for my brews, anyone used this? Probably should have checked before I ordered

Hanglow said:

Ordered Muntons Extra Pale as my base malt for my brews, anyone used this? Probably should have checked before I ordered

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Depends on just what you want to accomplish. While that LME is mostly aimed at light lagers and light hybrid ales (e.g., cream ale), it can be used for an English style Pale Ale if you add some color malts to it. It isn't strictly 'authentic', but it can be used. A pound of 60L crystal malt as a specialty steeping malt should bring the malt character and color up to a suitable point, though you'll need to experiment with it a bit. You might consider a half pound of either aromatic malt or Victory malt as well, or a small (1/4 pound or less) amount of chocolate malt.

The real problem is that Munton doesn't make a straight Pale Ale Malt based LME. Their Pale LME is also based on a 2-row lager malt, but the Amber (AFAICT) is a mix of Pale Ale malt and Crystal Malt, which makes it hard to judge how to use it unless you re already familiar with it.

There are some true Pale Ale LME and DME sources around - Briess has a Pale Ale LME, for example - but I don't know about the availability for it at your LHBS.

Hanglow said:

Ordered Muntons Extra Pale as my base malt for my brews, anyone used this? Probably should have checked before I ordered

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Schol-R-LEA said:

Depends on just what you want to accomplish. While that LME is mostly aimed at light lagers and light hybrid ales (e.g., cream ale), it can be used for an English style Pale Ale if you add some color malts to it. It isn't strictly 'authentic', but it can be used. A pound of 60L crystal malt as a specialty steeping malt should bring the malt character and color up to a suitable point, though you'll need to experiment with it a bit. You might consider a half pound of either aromatic malt or Victory malt as well, or a small (1/4 pound or less) amount of chocolate malt.

The real problem is that Munton doesn't make a straight Pale Ale Malt based LME. Their Pale LME is also based on a 2-row lager malt, but the Amber (AFAICT) is a mix of Pale Ale malt and Crystal Malt, which makes it hard to judge how to use it unless you re already familiar with it.

There are some true Pale Ale LME and DME sources around - Briess has a Pale Ale LME, for example - but I don't know about the availability for it at your LHBS.

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Not sure if he's using LME, or Munton's Extra Pale malt, which appears to be a lower kilned Maris Otter (ie 1.5°L instead of ~3°L). I've used the regular Munton's Maris Otter, but never the Extra Pale. I'm generally not a fan of Munton's, although I do use their extra dark crystal (150°L), but can't speak to the "Extra Pale" MO.

As far as Briess Pale Ale malt (and malt extract), it's made from American 2-row barley, kilned like English malt (ie a little darker and more character than generic US 2 row malt), but it's NOT a substitute for an English pale malt (I did some side by side comparisons). It gets the toasty notes right, but it's like regular bland US 2 row with a toasty overtone, and lacks the depth of a proper English pale malt. Every English beer I used it in, the one made with proper Maris Otter was better every single time. Now, if you were to use it for a little more malt depth in an American beer, that'd be a different story.

unionrdr said:

Kind of a British bready, caramel wheat ale...

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If that's how it comes out I'll be stoked. I have three taps and this will be between a pilsner and a mild ale.

Qhrumphf said:

As far as Briess Pale Ale malt (and malt extract), it's made from American 2-row barley, kilned like English malt (ie a little darker and more character than generic US 2 row malt), but it's NOT a substitute for an English pale malt (I did some side by side comparisons). It gets the toasty notes right, but it's like regular bland US 2 row with a toasty overtone, and lacks the depth of a proper English pale malt. Every English beer I used it in, the one made with proper Maris Otter was better every single time.

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OK, that's a good point, I hadn't known that about the Briess pale ale malt. I've been using MO for anything like that in any case, usually from Crisp rather than either Munton or Thomas Fawcett, so I wasn't really familiar with the Briess PA malt in any case. I appreciate the information.

And yes, I jumped to the assumption that Hanglow was talking about LME rather than malt grain, as I knew of the Extra Pale LME but I hadn't heard of the Extra Pale Malt that they offered. While I would not necessarily choose it myself, the Extra Pale malt sounds like it should be fine in a pale ale, especially if it is just a low-kilned MO, but I would expect it to be on the golden rather than amber side of the style - more of a summer ale, I suppose. I do see that Crisp has an Extra Pale MO as well, so perhaps it has become popular for that sub-style.

Hmmn, I have been planning to use a small amount of MO in a (non-traditional) cream ale, but was concerned about the color depth going too high for the style. Perhaps the XPMO is just the thing for that.

Schol-R-LEA said:

I've been using MO for anything like that in any case, usually from Crisp rather than either Munton or Thomas Fawcett

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Crisp MO is a fine malt, but I'm in love with Thomas Fawcett Maris Otter. It's a little more expensive than Crisp at my LHBS, but I got a bag once at the same cost because he was out of Crisp, and then decided I liked it enough to pay a couple extra bucks per sack. To each their own. I know a lot of folks who love the Crisp.

Hmmn, I have been planning to use a small amount of MO in a (non-traditional) cream ale, but was concerned about the color depth going too high for the style. Perhaps the XPMO is just the thing for that.

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Not one to discourage experimentation. But for me, an American Pils malt, some American 6 row, and flaked maize, that's my Cream Ale grain bill.