Question on the mashout

If you're doing a mash out and raising the temp to 170, do you leave your mash in, add hot water and let it sit for 10 min? Or do you take first running, then mash out?

You want to raise the entire mash up to 168-170 for your mash out. You could also take a large portion of the thin part (the liquid) and bring that up to a boil and add it back to the mash as a small mash-out decoction (this is what I normally do).

After you let it rest for a few minutes (~10 for me, not sure what is optimum) you can then vorlauf and start running out to the kettle.

How large of a portion? I imagine it would depend on the mash size, so it a certain perportion, or do you just go be feel?

If you're pulling just the liquid you need quite a lot in order to affect the temperature of the whole mash - so when I do just the liquid I tend to take pretty much the whole thing, yes.

However I often take a lot of grain out with it so I can use the opportunity to develop some more flavours in my beer. Then I'll usually take about 30-40 percent of the grain along with it. Once it gets up to a boil I will keep it there for 15 minutes before adding back to the mash. If I pull just the liquid I add back to the mash as soon as it hits the boil.

Thanks Brad!

jacksonbrown said:

If you're doing a mash out and raising the temp to 170, do you leave your mash in, add hot water and let it sit for 10 min? Or do you take first running, then mash out?

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I let it sit for 10 minutes before vorlauf.

- Eric

jacksonbrown said:

If you're doing a mash out and raising the temp to 170, do you leave your mash in, add hot water and let it sit for 10 min? Or do you take first running, then mash out?

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Add the mashout water to the main mash, stir well, let sit 10 mins, vorlauf, drain.

In addition to increasing the temp of the mash, adding mashout water increases the water:grain ratio of the first runnings. This increases extraction and therefore efficiency. I read this in a reputable book; I'll try to find the citation when I can.

I mash at whatever temp for 60 mins, add water to bring it to 168, let sit for 15, then add almost boiling water to bring up to 170 and drain from there. I believe this is called double infusion batch sparging. I hit 80% everytime

This is one of the beauties of direct-fire + recirculation. At the end of the mash, I just turn on the burner with the mash recirculating. When I reach 165-168º the wort is already crystal clear since I've been recirculating for so long and I just switch the pump output to the BK.

Not having to add extra H2O for mashout also leaves more volume for sparging, which helps with efficiency.

Lil' Sparky said:

Not having to add extra H2O for mashout also leaves more volume for sparging, which helps with efficiency.

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It sounds like you have a pretty nice setup. Some buddies of mine brew that way and they love it. I'm just using a cooler MLT.

After doing it at least a dozen times, I've come to view the mashout infusion as a pseudo-sparge. Adding 5 quarts of 200º water to the mash raises the temp and increases the liquidity substantially. Stirring it up real well, you can just tell it is washing the grains and improving extraction. I know I get lower efficiency by not doing a mashout.

Mashout? We don't need no stinking mashout! Paging Bobby M, paging Bobby M.

Beerthoven said:

Add the mashout water to the main mash, stir well, let sit 10 mins, vorlauf, drain.

In addition to increasing the temp of the mash, adding mashout water increases the water:grain ratio of the first runnings. This increases extraction and therefore efficiency. I read this in a reputable book; I'll try to find the citation when I can.

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I see this thrown around a lot without a few important qualifications. I'm sure any text on the matter is based on fly sparging. If it's a batch sparge situation, it may help efficiency if you're only willing to do ONE bulk batch sparge. The reason it works in that case is that you're getting your two runnings volumes as close to equal as possible. If you're willing to do two half volume discrete batch sparge infusions (with a hot enough temp to raise the grainbed temp) it actually works slightly better than a mashout + 1 batch.

To Sparky's point, it is quite nice being able to raise the mash up to 168ish without having to do much more than light the burner.

I'd summarize the methods and effects like this in order of highest efficiency to lowest:

#1 three discrete runnings (full drain, batch/drain, batch/drain). I normally get 90% doing this.
#2 two discrete runnings (predrain mashout infusion/drain, batch/drain). 86% typical
#3 two discrete running (drain, batch/drain) 80% typical
#4 one discrete running (no sparge) (mashout infusion/drain) I just got 60% doing this.
#5 one discrete running (no sparge) (drain just the mash water) Lazy man...don't do this.


This assumes that all methods are using the same grain bill, mash temps/times, same crush, and infusion temps to reach as close to 168F at the end of sparging as possible. The mashout infusion gets you there earliest but it doesn't have as large of an effect as you'd think and it's still not enough to make it the MOST efficient method. It is however one way to avoid the extra vorlauf of method #1.

Method 2 is more efficient than 3 because of the earlier temp elevation and the fact that the runnings are closer to equal volume.

One of these days I'll get around to seeing if your no mashout double sparge method is also the most efficient on my system. I'm just not that interested right now, to tell you the truth. It works well for you, but others have reported trying it with no appreciable change in efficiency.

I reliably get 85% efficiency with a mashout single sparge method and I see no reason to change. I don't have to worry about sparging thick with a low water:grav ratio and I don't have to worry about low gravity last runnings, either. Now that I've learned how to consistently hit my temps, gravs, and vols, I'm a lot more interested in recipe formulation than I am in issues of efficiency.

That's fair enough but many folks around here answer the "what's a mashout for?" question with a very basic "it increases efficiency" without the ands, ifs, and buts that make the statement more accurate. Many people, like you, are completely satisfied with their process and efficiency and that's great. Me too. I suspect many people do method 2 (mashout single sparge) in my list and I think 85% is about right and completely reasonable given the saved vorlauf. I mean, it's only 5%.

Beerthoven said:

It sounds like you have a pretty nice setup. Some buddies of mine brew that way and they love it. I'm just using a cooler MLT.

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Using a cooler MLT shouldn't stop you! You can still use a heat exchanger in your hot liquor tank, or you can (in)direct fire with steam.

I haven't had time to write it up yet, but I am using recirc on my steam-fired cooler-MLT system, and I agree with Lil' Sparky that is a great way to go.

Regarding mash-outs for batch sparging vs. other methods, there are countless ways to achieve the same thing -- in the end, you want a hot mash (170F) while sparging, and that's what counts most IMO. I have experimented with lots of ways to get there, and I am always within about 5% of my typical extract efficiency. So now I just pick the method that is easiest for me, which is to heat one large volume of water to 170, use steam (or a boiling water infusion) to bring the mash up to this temp, and then use as few sparges as I can get away with (while keeping the runnings approximately equal).

#1 three discrete runnings (full drain, batch/drain, batch/drain). I normally get 90% doing this.
#2 two discrete runnings (predrain mashout infusion/drain, batch/drain). 86% typical

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Bobby, I'm a bit of a noob, would you mind explain these two processes in a little more detail?

In method #1 you first drain the MLT. Then using sparge water hot enough to raise the mash up to 168º (maybe like 180-190º) you perform two equal batch sparges.

In method #2 you add the mashout infusion, drain the MLT, and then perform a single sparge with 170º water.

In method #1 you first drain the MLT. Then using sparge water hot enough to raise the mash up to 168º (maybe like 180-190º) you perform two equal batch sparges.

In method #2 you add the mashout infusion, drain the MLT, and then perform a single sparge with 170º water.

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Thanks, that makes much more sense to me!

Informative thread

Cheers
BeerCanuck

Lil' Sparky said:

In method #1 you first drain the MLT. Then using sparge water hot enough to raise the mash up to 168º (maybe like 180-190º) you perform two equal batch sparges.

In method #2 you add the mashout infusion, drain the MLT, and then perform a single sparge with 170º water.

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I've gone with methon 1 since switching to all grain (all of 7 batches ago), and I've consistently gotten 80% efficiency into the boiler. I am curious to try a mash out though and see if that does indeed improve my efficiency. Every point counts in my book.

Lil' Sparky said:

In method #1 you first drain the MLT. Then using sparge water hot enough to raise the mash up to 168º (maybe like 180-190º) you perform two equal batch sparges.

In method #2 you add the mashout infusion, drain the MLT, and then perform a single sparge with 170º water.

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Ok, not too sound dense. I assume after draining do you recirculate the first runnings with the two batch sparges? If so, which one?

No, the recirculation or vorlauf is done prior to fully running off and you only need to recirculate about 2 quarts, not the whole runoff. Once you vorlauf and fully drain, that wort never goes back into the mash as a batch infusion. Batch sparge infusions are clean, clear hot water.

My last 3 AG batches I have been having issues with the amount of wort I have been collecting. The one time I had way to much and the next 2 times I did not have enough. This last time I added the strike water let it site for 60 mins, drained it, then added 1 small batch of 180F water let it sit for 20 mins and drain, then repeated that step. It seems to have come out ok. I still managed to collect to much but I just boiled for 90 mins to get rid of the excess. Some day ill get it right. Its really frustrating and makes me wanna go back to extract

wedge421 said:

My last 3 AG batches I have been having issues with the amount of wort I have been collecting. The one time I had way to much and the next 2 times I did not have enough. This last time I added the strike water let it site for 60 mins, drained it, then added 1 small batch of 180F water let it sit for 20 mins and drain, then repeated that step. It seems to have come out ok. I still managed to collect to much but I just boiled for 90 mins to get rid of the excess. Some day ill get it right. Its really frustrating and makes me wanna go back to extract

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Are you using any kind of software to help you estimate your needed volumes or are you calculating every batch by hand? It took a few runs with Beersmith to get some of the parameters for my system dialed in, but since then I can nail the temps and volume - usually the final volume is within 1 qt of my target. Brewing software is worth every $0.01 IMO!

wedge421 said:

My last 3 AG batches I have been having issues with the amount of wort I have been collecting. The one time I had way to much and the next 2 times I did not have enough. This last time I added the strike water let it site for 60 mins, drained it, then added 1 small batch of 180F water let it sit for 20 mins and drain, then repeated that step. It seems to have come out ok. I still managed to collect to much but I just boiled for 90 mins to get rid of the excess. Some day ill get it right. Its really frustrating and makes me wanna go back to extract

Click to expand...

Noooo don't do that.

I use a piece of CPVC leftover from building my manifold. It has markings every gallon (in my boiling pot) and hash marks for my target runoff and target after-boil zones. I use it to measure how much I have runoff, how much I have boiled off half way through, etc. It's an amazing low tech tool.

- Eric

Nice thread, I am taking notes trying to get above 70%.
For volumes I did similar markings on my long boiling spoon, marked off right now at 3gal, 4,5,6,7. May add a few more as I get a better handle on things.

Speaking of efficiency. When (the collective) you generally talk about it, are you talking into the boiler or over all brewhouse efficiency? According to Beersmith, generally my efficiency into boiler is 80%, but my brewhouse efficiency is 70%. I'm not really sure how that works, but since everyone throws out the term so much, just wondering which you're generally referring to.

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I talk about efficiency I'm talking about mash system efficiency (how much sugar were you able to extract from the grains). Brewhouse efficiency also takes into account how much wort you lost to your chiller and your kettle etc. Ideally you'd like both of those numbers to be as high as possible because it means you're using less grain and are wasting less water.

I've had success using a variation of Bobby M's method 1. Goes like this:

1. Mashout - add boiling (3-4 qts) water to MT to raise grain bed to 168 -170.

2. Collect first runnings, determine remaining wort required for preboil target.

3. Perform two sparges of equal volume w/ approx. 185 degree sparge water while monitoring mash temp below 170.

I usually use a smaller cooler, and find it easier to determine sparge volumes even by eyeballing remaining quantity needed in the kettle.

Sorry no Beersmith or Promash spoken here, usually just use the rackers mash calculator.

I typically quote brewhouse efficiency because it's the number that BTP displays prominantly but it turns out that I only lose about 3% between preboil and fermenter. It's basically the wort that gets locked in the hop gunk and some in the CFC coil.

I just got a cooler for mashing and plan on trying it for the first time this weekend. I've been following all these discussions and watched the Kaiser's video on decoction and I'm trying to come up with some variation of these methods that works for me. One thing that has been mentioned is to take the first running and bring it to a boil or near boil then add it back That makes sense but some people also take out some of the mash and boil it along with the wort. I always thought that would bring out the tannins and make it astringent. What is the consensus (or lack thereof) on that?

I don't know all the chemistry on it but basically you don't get tannins in a decoction boil because of the pH level of the mash.

OK, that makes sense.