yeast starter questions

Trying to make my first yeast starter following JP's How To Brew.

My starter consisted of 1/2 a cup of DME in 2 cups of boiled water. I added the washed yeast to this. I unfortunately didn't add yeast nutrient.

I don't have stir plate and I have not seen any activity from the starter in the past 36 hours.

Trying to decide if I should dump the starter and buy new yeast?

yeast nutrient is not necessary to make a starter.

the fact that you have not seen any action yet could mean that your washed yeast was really low in active yeast cells. Stay the course for at least another 24 hours. If you don't see activity by then it would probably be a good idea to grab some new yeast.

Thanks for the advice. Will keep it an eye on it through the weekend

cobbler said:

Trying to make my first yeast starter following JP's How To Brew.

My starter consisted of 1/2 a cup of DME in 2 cups of boiled water. I added the washed yeast to this. I unfortunately didn't add yeast nutrient.

I don't have stir plate and I have not seen any activity from the starter in the past 36 hours.

Trying to decide if I should dump the starter and buy new yeast?

Click to expand...

Did you just use boiled water or did you boil the starter?

IMO get new yeast and start over. That procedure is to "wake up" the yeast 5-6 hours before brewing. If you want to "grow" yeast you'll need at least 1.5l starter. Then you let that starter work 15-36 hours, refrigerate a day or 2 until the yeast drop out and then decant and pitch.

You can't let a starter sit at room temp for more than 36 hours,

jetmac said:

That procedure is to "wake up" the yeast 5-6 hours before brewing. If you want to "grow" yeast you'll need at least 1.5l starter.

Click to expand...

False. You can grow yeast just fine in a 1 liter starter.

jetmac said:

Then you let that starter work 15-36 hours

Click to expand...

No way. 15 hours without a stir plate is way too short. Even with a stir plate it's too short a time to get full cell count growth.

mightynintendo said:

False. You can grow yeast just fine in a 1 liter starter.

Click to expand...

OP's OG is 1.080, so IMO, a 1.5L starter is minimum, And may not be enough with 1 pack. Using a 1L starter he needs at least 2 packs of yeast.

mightynintendo said:

No way. 15 hours without a stir plate is way too short. Even with a stir plate it's too short a time to get full cell count growth.

Click to expand...

Yes way. 15-18 hours is minimal but the growth will happen. With a stir plate it's certainly enough time.

mightynintendo said:

A 2.5 liter starter, allowed to sit with one smack pack of yeast for 24 hours, is still under-pitching a 1.080 wort.

Click to expand...

Well sort of, you need to shake it once per hour.

mightynintendo said:

Stay the course for at least another 24 hours. If you don't see activity by then it would probably be a good idea to grab some new yeast.

Click to expand...

Not good advice. The starter should not be allowed to sit out more than 36 hours.

jetmac said:

OP's OG is 1.080, so IMO, a 1.5L starter is minimum, And may not be enough with 1 pack. Using a 1L starter he needs at least 2 packs of yeast.

Click to expand...

He could also start with a 1 liter starter, let the cell count grow to whatever, make another 1 liter starter with 100 mL of the starter #1 and 900 mL of fresh wort and let the cell count grow to whatever, then make another 1 liter starter with 100 mL of starter #2 and 900 mL fresh wort, let it grow to whatever, all the while refrigerating and decanting the starters. Eventually he will have his cell count and all of it could be done in 1 liter starters. in fact i know some people who do a lot of research with yeast and this is the method they use to grow yeast cells. not necessarily 1 liter starters, but 1:10 old starter to fresh wort, 24 hours exactly on the stir plate, and repeat until cell count is reached. i think in 1 liter starter, each 24 hour growth phase will produce something like 80 - 90 billion cells.

jetmac said:

Yes way. 15-18 hours is minimal but the growth will happen. With a stir plate it's certainly enough time.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry I didn't realize the point of making a starter was to increase yeast cell count to something below the maximum in the volume they occupy. I guess if you don't want or need the maximum cells you can get in your starter volume then sure, go for 15 hours.

jetmac said:

Yes way. 15-18 hours is minimal but the growth will happen. With a stir plate it's certainly enough time.

Click to expand...

I saw a video by Wyeast that states 12-18 hours is all that is needed when making a starter using a stir plate. I would trust them!

jetmac said:

Not good advice. The starter should not be allowed to sit out more than 36 hours.

Click to expand...

Why not?

kh54s10 said:

I saw a video by Wyeast that states 12-18 hours is all that is needed when making a starter using a stir plate. I would trust them!

Click to expand...

I wouldn't doubt it either. I seem to be receiving information from wyeast and the forums that say 12-18 hours is OK and information from actual microbiologists who say 24 hours is best.

mightynintendo said:

I wouldn't doubt it either. I seem to be receiving information from wyeast and the forums that say 12-18 hours is OK and information from actual microbiologists who say 24 hours is best.

Click to expand...

Yes, i agree. 24 hours is best.

mightynintendo said:

Why not?

Click to expand...

After 24 hours the yeast is pretty much done growing and your are just beating them up, over oxygenating causing off-flavors and using up their energy.

jetmac said:

After 24 hours the yeast is pretty much done growing and your are just beating them up, over oxygenating causing off-flavors and using up their energy.

Click to expand...

I get that when using healthy yeast. If the OP pitched extremely low yeast cell counts or had relatively unhealthy yeast, trying to grow them for a little longer is the only way I can think to salvage the yeast. I agree with your statement for healthy yeast in normal situations. I just don't think this is such a situation.

mightynintendo said:

He could also start with a 1 liter starter, let the cell count grow to whatever, make another 1 liter starter with 100 mL of the starter #1 and 900 mL of fresh wort and let the cell count grow to whatever, then make another 1 liter starter with 100 mL of starter #2 and 900 mL fresh wort, let it grow to whatever, all the while refrigerating and decanting the starters. Eventually he will have his cell count and all of it could be done in 1 liter starters. in fact i know some people who do a lot of research with yeast and this is the method they use to grow yeast cells. not necessarily 1 liter starters, but 1:10 old starter to fresh wort, 24 hours exactly on the stir plate, and repeat until cell count is reached. i think in 1 liter starter, each 24 hour growth phase will produce something like 80 - 90 billion cells.

Click to expand...

This is common knowledge but it sounded like the OP was in a hurry, so I assumed taking the time to step up his starter wasn't something he wanted to do. But a 1L starter will not grow enough for a 1.080 beer without stepping up. Which is why I recommended a minimum of 1.5L over the .5L he was using.

mightynintendo said:

I'm sorry I didn't realize the point of making a starter was to increase yeast cell count to something below the maximum in the volume they occupy. I guess if you don't want or need the maximum cells you can get in your starter volume then sure, go for 15 hours.

Click to expand...

Apology accepted.

Guess it depends on how much time you have. IMO a minimum of 15hours is way better than no starter. If you have less than 15 hours, I suggest 2 packs.

mightynintendo said:

I get that when using healthy yeast. If the OP pitched extremely low yeast cell counts or had relatively unhealthy yeast, trying to grow them for a little longer is the only way I can think to salvage the yeast. I agree with your statement for healthy yeast in normal situations. I just don't think this is such a situation.

Click to expand...

You may be right. And, he may not even be shaking or using a stir plate.

Well, I brewed my Pliny the Elder Clone yesterday using the 2.5 L starter. It took a mere 4 hours to show very active fermentation and a good sized Krausen had aldready formed. This is the quickest I've ever seen fermentation take off. I will be buying a stir-plate here soon as well.
Thanks for all your help here!

I know this is an old thread but out of curiosity, how big a starter can you make with only one vial of white labs without having to step it up?

I made 3 different starters for a large brew. Same type yeast. Same wort. Half gallon starters. All going good. Made them last night. They all smell the same but appear different. Krausen etc. Is this a problem. Thanks

i made my first starter on tuesday (one vial of WLP001), and grew at 20C on a shaker/incubator for 24 hours. I counted the cells with a hemocytometer and only came up with 50 billion cells per liter (did a 1L volume). I expected this to be 2-4 fold higher.

Is this a normal cell density under these conditions?

ScoRas said:

i made my first starter on tuesday (one vial of WLP001), and grew at 20C on a shaker/incubator for 24 hours. I counted the cells with a hemocytometer and only came up with 50 billion cells per liter (did a 1L volume). I expected this to be 2-4 fold higher.

Is this a normal cell density under these conditions?

Click to expand...

How is it possible to pitch 100 billion cells into 1 liter of wort, ferment it on a stir plate at 68 degrees and end up with only 50 billion cells?

I would say this is not normal. What was the production date on the vial ?