Got a keg, riddled with guilt...

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olllllo said:
This makes no legal difference in terms of your responsibility.

Even if it did, it would be completely unethical.

Knowingly paying $20 or something that costs the owner $130 that is not recoverable by the brewery because of some vestige of prohibition is not ethical.

Your argument wouldn't hold on probrewer and it won't here.
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The fact that probrewer wouldn't agree with me is irrelevant.

The problem is that Brewers aren't keeping their distributors in check. Maybe the issue is a legislative one, but its one the breweries need to handle.

The distributor is directly acting as an agent for the brewery.
 
Stolen kegs have beer makers feeling tapped out

Craft brewers are anxious to solve the theft problem because as much as 40 percent of their business is tied up in keg sales, triple the industry average, said Ken Grossman, founder and owner of Sierra Nevada Brewing Co.
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I don't care what people do.
My objections is that they post outright misinformation such as:
  1. A deposit is a sale. They have my $30, so I bought it.
    Average $150 replacement fee. $30 doesn't begin to cover it.
  2. It doesn't hurt breweries.
    40% of their business tied up in kegs, with 3% losses. I wouldn't want to give that money up. Would you?
  3. It doesn't hurt the craft breweries if you only steal BMC kegs.
    It can take months to replace a keg. Shortages hurt everyone. Shortages drive up prices. Higher costs hurt smaller craft breweries disproportionately. In some cases shortages make kegs unavailable to smaller breweries for periods of time because kegs are provided to large volume contracts first.
  4. It's not that big of a problem.
    300,000 kegs lost per year is a sizable problem that will get worse if SS prices remain high.
  5. They (the brewery) should just raise the price of the deposit.
    It most cases, the deposit is a balance of the interests of the brewery, the distributor and sometimes the state. The brewery is not able to do this on their own.
This MSNBC story dispels these myths.


Want a smaller breweries opinion? How about The Bruery?
http://bruery.blogspot.com/2007/06/kegs.html

One solution is higher keg deposits. Current deposit amounts in California are about $15 per keg, about 10% of the cost of a replacement keg. This is not high enough to thwart theft, but charging $50 or even $100 is impractical when other brewers continue charging a nominal amount. Deposit fees are generally set by the big guys, as retailers don't see why craft brewers can charge $50 keg deposits while Budweiser is charging only $15 for the same keg. As a large multinational corporation, Budweiser and other large brewers are better able to absorb the cost than the local craft brewer. Many retailers are just concerned with cost, and charging a higher keg deposit makes craft beer a less profitable prospect as it ties up their cash.
Click to expand...
Again. I don't care what people do as long as they don't use this board to substitute their opinions for facts in an attempt to justify their behavior.
 
Synovia said:
The fact that probrewer wouldn't agree with me is irrelevant.

The problem is that Brewers aren't keeping their distributors in check. Maybe the issue is a legislative one, but its one the breweries need to handle.

The distributor is directly acting as an agent for the brewery.
Click to expand...

As a Chicagoan, you should know that the distributors wield more power than the breweries do. Why do you think Bells pulled completely out of your state?
 
olllllo said:
Stolen kegs have beer makers feeling tapped out

I don't care what people do.
My objections is that they post outright misinformation such as:
  1. A deposit is a sale. They have my $30, so I bought it.
    Average $150 replacement fee. $30 doesn't begin to cover it.
  2. It doesn't hurt breweries.
    40% of their business tied up in kegs, with 3% losses. I wouldn't want to give that money up. Would you?
  3. It doesn't hurt the craft breweries if you only steal BMC kegs.
    It can take months to replace a keg. Shortages hurt everyone. Shortages drive up prices. Higher costs hurt smaller craft breweries disproportionately. In some cases shortages make kegs unavailable to smaller breweries for periods of time because kegs are provided to large volume contracts first.
  4. It's not that big of a problem.
    300,000 kegs lost per year is a sizable problem that will get worse if SS prices remain high.
  5. They (the brewery) should just raise the price of the deposit.
    It most cases, the deposit is a balance of the interests of the brewery, the distributor and sometimes the state. The brewery is not able to do this on their own.
This MSNBC story dispels these myths.
Click to expand...
Then the breweries should do something about it.

If they want their keg back, they should make sure that the consumer can return it.


Also, I don't see where I've made any of those claims you seem to be trying to refute.
 
olllllo said:
As a Chicagoan, you should know that the distributors wield more power than the breweries do. Why do you think Bells pulled completely out of your state?
Click to expand...

Then the breweries should do something about that. Either charge the distributors more, or allow consumers to return kegs directly to them. I've tried. They tell you to screw off.
 
springer said:
Here the state sets the deposit.
Click to expand...

Wonderful. They can vote just like everyone else. Or bribe their local mayor, just like everyone else here does.


Again, if they want the kegs back, they just gotta let us return em. I've tried.
 
Synovia said:
Then the breweries should do something about that. Either charge the distributors more, or allow consumers to return kegs directly to them. I've tried. They tell you to screw off.
Click to expand...

I guarantee that if someone were to walk into our brewery with a keg and say hey I have this keg of yours, you want it back. We would say hell yes, and probably offer the guy a beer, I can't imagine any brewery would say "screw off" if you were trying to return their property.

We are having a problem right now at our brewery with kegs coming up missing, most of them missing from bars I actually spent some of today labeling our kegs more permanently while my boss was ordering a replacement pallet. Of course we don't have a lot of kegs go missing from the liquor stores because we charge the actual cost of the keg for deposit, we were just losing too much money.
 
BarleyWater said:
I guarantee that if someone were to walk into our brewery with a keg and say hey I have this keg of yours, you want it back. We would say hell yes, and probably offer the guy a beer, I can't imagine any brewery would say "screw off" if you were trying to return their property.
Click to expand...

I called Goose Island a while back, and they refused to take one.
We are having a problem right now at our brewery with kegs coming up missing, most of them missing from bars I actually spent some of today labeling our kegs more permanently while my boss was ordering a replacement pallet. Of course we don't have a lot of kegs go missing from the liquor stores because we charge the actual cost of the keg for deposit, we were just losing too much money.
Click to expand...

From what I've heard from a couple bar tenders around here, is that a lot of breweries/distributors won't give a deposit back if the keg has been gone longer than XX days. If its a small bar, a keg being on tap for a long time isn't uncommon, especially if its craft. So the distributor refuses to refund the deposit, and the bar chucks the keg.
 
BarleyWater said:
I guarantee that if someone were to walk into our brewery with a keg and say hey I have this keg of yours, you want it back. We would say hell yes, and probably offer the guy a beer, I can't imagine any brewery would say "screw off" if you were trying to return their property.

We are having a problem right now at our brewery with kegs coming up missing, most of them missing from bars I actually spent some of today labeling our kegs more permanently while my boss was ordering a replacement pallet. Of course we don't have a lot of kegs go missing from the liquor stores because we charge the actual cost of the keg for deposit, we were just losing too much money.
Click to expand...

Have you guys considered the proximity chips? i have read that those will become the new trend.
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
Have you guys considered the proximity chips? i have read that those will become the new trend.
Click to expand...

Heres an article about this
http://www.rfidnews.org/2009/05/18/brewery-taps-fluensee-for-keg-tracking

"
Brewery taps Fluensee for keg tracking

Monday, May 18, 2009 in News

Fluensee, a provider of RFID-enabled asset-tracking and supply chain management solutions, has been selected by the Colorado-based New Belgium Brewing Company to provide a system to track, manage, and improve the utilization of its keg fleet. The brewer - perhaps best known for its flagship Fat Tire beer - will deploy Fluensee’s AssetTrack software application and accompanying passive RFID technology to provide visibilty throughout its supply chain.

At the New Belgium brewery, passive RFID readers have been installed along the fill line. As tagged beer kegs pass along the line, the readers collect data for the AssetTrack system, providing insight into which kegs are being filled most often and with what type of beer. This information should help the brewer increase the efficiency of keg use.

“Using Fluensee’s AssetTrack solution and RFID technology helps us automate our keg management process so that we know where our kegs are, how frequently they’re being used and how quickly they are being returned,” says the fittingly named Brendan Beers, packaging materials purchaser for New Belgium Brewing. “Our vision is that RFID will streamline keg movement to our customer sites and throughout our supply chain.”

When the RFID system is fully adopted, New Belgium expects to collect a wide range of supply chain information, including current keg location and status, fill-to-fill cycle time for each keg, the length of time kegs spend at distributors, and the keg return rates of each distributor. [end]
 
Synovia said:
Wonderful. They can vote just like everyone else. Or bribe their local mayor, just like everyone else here does.


Again, if they want the kegs back, they just gotta let us return em. I've tried.
Click to expand...

ohh I know I tried to return a AB keg to the local distributor Dutchess beer I picked up the almost new keg on clean up from a neighbor who put it out to the curb. I was looked at like I had two heads by both the receptionist and the dock manager who said flat out we wont take with no paper work . I even said I didnt want the deposit I ended up stating that I knew the owners as his son is one of my insureds and I left at the dock . Man the dock manager wasn't pleased. Guess its a pain to put an unaccounted or written off keg back into the system.

Was a pretty keg not a scratch on her ..... God I need some help to even think like that
 
Dogslovebeer said:
Heres an article about this
http://www.rfidnews.org/2009/05/18/brewery-taps-fluensee-for-keg-tracking

"
Brewery taps Fluensee for keg tracking

Monday, May 18, 2009 in News

Fluensee, a provider of RFID-enabled asset-tracking and supply chain management solutions, has been selected by the Colorado-based New Belgium Brewing Company to provide a system to track, manage, and improve the utilization of its keg fleet. The brewer - perhaps best known for its flagship Fat Tire beer - will deploy Fluensee’s AssetTrack software application and accompanying passive RFID technology to provide visibilty throughout its supply chain.

At the New Belgium brewery, passive RFID readers have been installed along the fill line. As tagged beer kegs pass along the line, the readers collect data for the AssetTrack system, providing insight into which kegs are being filled most often and with what type of beer. This information should help the brewer increase the efficiency of keg use.

“Using Fluensee’s AssetTrack solution and RFID technology helps us automate our keg management process so that we know where our kegs are, how frequently they’re being used and how quickly they are being returned,” says the fittingly named Brendan Beers, packaging materials purchaser for New Belgium Brewing. “Our vision is that RFID will streamline keg movement to our customer sites and throughout our supply chain.”

When the RFID system is fully adopted, New Belgium expects to collect a wide range of supply chain information, including current keg location and status, fill-to-fill cycle time for each keg, the length of time kegs spend at distributors, and the keg return rates of each distributor. [end]
Click to expand...

Maybe that is why the liquer store owner could not sell me miller/coors kegs. New Belgium is distributed by Coors. Is miller/coors doing this also?

On another note. Why the hell are they still using SS kegs. There are better ways to distribute that would cost less. Like the onewaykegs I posted earlier. Especially for import beers. It takes months for them to get back kegs. If they made them one use and recyclable we would not be having this conversation.
 
Synovia said:
Again, its a simple process. I give a deposit. I am promised that if I return the keg, I will get my deposit back. If they will not give me my deposit back, then they are transferring ownership of the keg to me by refusing to honor the conditions that were agreed upon.
Click to expand...


So did you do this ^^^ ?
This sounds like you planned on not giving it back?

Did you knowingly put yourself in a position to not be able to return it?

Did you take advantage of the situation?

It's my opinion that that would be unethical.

I don't think the method of keg acquisition is legit.
 
olllllo said:
So did you do this ^^^ ?
This sounds like you planned on not giving it back?

Did you knowingly put yourself in a position to not be able to return it?

Did you take advantage of the situation?

It's my opinion that that would be unethical.

I don't think the method of keg acquisition is legit.
Click to expand...

Again, what do you want me to do with a keg that the brewery and distributor refuse to take back? Seriously.
 
springer said:
ohh I know I tried to return a AB keg to the local distributor Dutchess beer I picked up the almost new keg on clean up from a neighbor who put it out to the curb. I was looked at like I had two heads by both the receptionist and the dock manager who said flat out we wont take with no paper work . I even said I didnt want the deposit I ended up stating that I knew the owners as his son is one of my insureds and I left at the dock . Man the dock manager wasn't pleased. Guess its a pain to put an unaccounted or written off keg back into the system.

Was a pretty keg not a scratch on her ..... God I need some help to even think like that
Click to expand...

Duchesse isn't owned by Inbev, I don't think, so this is a circumstance where the distro is not acting on the breweries behalf. This is not the same as not taking a local keg back to a local brewery.
 
Synovia said:
Again, what do you want me to do with a keg that the brewery and distributor refuse to take back? Seriously.
Click to expand...

Brew with it.

If you don't answer the question of whether you planned on taking it for the deposit, then I'm going to have to assume that that is what you did.

If that's what you did, then brew with it.

But don't tell everyone here it's a perfectly acceptable thing to do.
 
olllllo said:
Brew with it.

If you don't answer the question of whether you planned on taking it for the deposit, then I'm going to have to assume that that is what you did.

If that's what you did, then brew with it.

But don't tell everyone here it's a perfectly acceptable thing to do.
Click to expand...

In my mind, if they're refusing to take it back, its perfectly acceptable.


I'm not saying people should go out and steal the damn things, but in my mind, if you try to return it, you've done all you can.
 
olllllo said:
Duchesse isn't owned by Inbev, I don't think, so this is a circumstance where the distro is not acting on the breweries behalf. This is not the same as not taking a local keg back to a local brewery.
Click to expand...

No local brewery around here. Closest is in Newark NJ. they are not owned buy Inbev but they are their agent in the area and the only one who can sell inbev products to local bars stores etc in the territory so in effect they are a branch of inbev.And that keg was from their place had stickers all over it to that effect

my kegs are all legal and they look it pretty banged up and one I bought the top was smashed . Moot point now as they will be collecting dust cause I am going to brew pots.
 
I called the local Budweiser distributor and asked the receptionist if they ever get damaged or decomissioned kegs, she said no but transferred me to the warehouse manager and he said the send them all back. I asked him if he knew where I could get one for brewing and he flat out told me to pay the deposit and keep it lol, it wasn't like I was twisting his arm.
 
Can't answer you without requiring you to read.

http://bruery.blogspot.com/2007/06/kegs.html

One solution is higher keg deposits. Current deposit amounts in California are about $15 per keg, about 10% of the cost of a replacement keg. This is not high enough to thwart theft, but charging $50 or even $100 is impractical when other brewers continue charging a nominal amount. Deposit fees are generally set by the big guys, as retailers don't see why craft brewers can charge $50 keg deposits while Budweiser is charging only $15 for the same keg. As a large multinational corporation, Budweiser and other large brewers are better able to absorb the cost than the local craft brewer. Many retailers are just concerned with cost, and charging a higher keg deposit makes craft beer a less profitable prospect as it ties up their cash.
Click to expand...

In MI, WI, NY among others, deposit charges are controlled by the state.
 
"Current deposit amounts in California are about $15 per keg" Not around these parts of Kalifonia. $50 accrossed the board, BMC to SN.
 
So what's the cheapest ethical way to get your hands on an old Sanke keg for making into a keggle? I already found a source for my first: it turns out I happen to know a guy who has one in his garage that he's going to trade me for some homebrew. Apparently it's been in there for decades...there's gotta be some statute of limitations here, right? :)
 
its funny how many people will tell you they have one sitting in the back of the garage thats been there for umpteen years when you put the word out that you are looking for one. I got one like this and a line on another.
 
ReeseAllen said:
So what's the cheapest ethical way to get your hands on an old Sanke keg for making into a keggle? I already found a source for my first: it turns out I happen to know a guy who has one in his garage that he's going to trade me for some homebrew. Apparently it's been in there for decades...there's gotta be some statute of limitations here, right? :)
Click to expand...

Go to your local craft brewery and ask them if they have any that aren't good any more. We have a few that are no good, and they're just collecting dust in the corner. If someone offered us a few bucks for them they're theirs.

mordantly said:
so let me see if i got this straight:

a deposit on a sanke is like $40 here. that doesn't replace the keg? i bet a brewery has a mass-volume arrangement or they would charge more for deposit.
Click to expand...


Buying in bulk does get you a small discount, but for the palate of 20 slim kegs (1/6 bbl) we bought earlier today, we paid about $90 a piece, the larger ones are more. Most breweries/distributors don't charge the full price for deposit, because much fewer people would be willing to take kegs home if they had to pay $125 on top of the price of the keg whether they get the deposit back or not.

buzzkill said:
its funny how many people will tell you they have one sitting in the back of the garage thats been there for umpteen years when you put the word out that you are looking for one. I got one like this and a line on another.
Click to expand...

Those are probably not legally theirs either, they've just been forgotten about for longer.
 
The bear is seriously sh*tting everywhere...I make a reference to the deposit to test fly the chopper in Clear and Present Danger, and what do yah know, the movie is on TV tonight...WTF?!?!?!
 
So at what point does the keg become abandoned propery as opposed to stolen?

Or do breweries posses magical property rights? heck, even an abandoned car has a process for tferring the title of an abandoned car.
 
olllllo said:
Can't answer you without requiring you to read.




In MI, WI, NY among others, deposit charges are controlled by the state.
Click to expand...

75 $ here and that's per keg so if you get 3 1/4 kegs its 225 $ and they want cash. And after 90 days you are SOL no return of the deposit.

BarleyWater said:
Go to your local craft brewery and ask them if they have any that aren't good any more. We have a few that are no good, and they're just collecting dust in the corner. If someone offered us a few bucks for them they're theirs.




Buying in bulk does get you a small discount, but for the palate of 20 slim kegs (1/6 bbl) we bought earlier today, we paid about $90 a piece, the larger ones are more. Most breweries/distributors don't charge the full price for deposit, because much fewer people would be willing to take kegs home if they had to pay $125 on top of the price of the keg whether they get the deposit back or not.



Those are probably not legally theirs either, they've just been forgotten about for longer.
Click to expand...

I can get 1/2 barrels new for $130 and change thats without the spear from Schaefer kegs . And I would bet when AB calls in an order they buy a few thousand at a time so their price would be lower.
 
you are right, the keg I'm after was stolen. the guy never took it back after his high school grad party. but he is 40 years old now and I doubt it would be worth trying to clean,if it could be cleaned at all. so I dont feel bad about it,but I try to not get shaddy things. having said that,kegs should be taken back.
 

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