Storage Temp and kegging

Hello,

I am about to purchase a kegging system, but had a question. Last year I made 30 gallons of hard cider and wanted to keg it all, but I didn't have a place to keep 6 corny kegs cold. I am wondering if I can store beer or hard cider in a keg that has been carbonated at room temp, say around 65-70 degrees, and then store it at room temp until I was ready to drink it? Any thoughts? Thanks for the help!

Kyle

I store my kegs in the basement until needed. Mid 60s maybe? Remember, a keg is just a big bottle. If sealed correctly you can store them just like you would any other bottle.

Great!

Thanks for the info! Also, should I cool the keg to carbonate it, and then store it in the basement? Or should I carbonate it at room temp if I am going to store it at room temp? Thanks again!

Kyle

kfeldman said:

Great!

Thanks for the info! Also, should I cool the keg to carbonate it, and then store it in the basement? Or should I carbonate it at room temp if I am going to store it at room temp? Thanks again!

Kyle

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It doesn't really matter, but you'll need much higher pressures for force carbing at room temp.

easiest method would be to naturally carb the kegs

let them carb at room temp by using priming sugar (usually about half the amount you would use when bottling)

I would rather not use the sugar method because I am trying to have less sediment in my beer. Would it be best to chill the beer, then carbonate it, and then bring it back to room temp for storage? Or should I carbonate it at room temp? Thanks!

kfeldman said:

Great!

Thanks for the info! Also, should I cool the keg to carbonate it, and then store it in the basement? Or should I carbonate it at room temp if I am going to store it at room temp? Thanks again!

Kyle

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As far as I understand, carbing at room temp doesn't really work... the beer needs to be cool to really begin to absorb CO2. I tried force carbing at room temp in my basement (~65*F) at 28 PSI for two weeks and it was BARELY carbonated (like maybe 1.5 volumes or something). Maybe if you were to chill them, carb them, and then store them in your basement?

You could also just seal the kegs, not carb them, and then store them in your basement...

homebrewbeliever said:

You could also just seal the kegs, not carb them, and then store them in your basement...

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You want some co2 in the kegs to store them so that they don't oxidize from 02 plus pressure will keep a much better seal.

kfeldman said:

I would rather not use the sugar method because I am trying to have less sediment in my beer. Would it be best to chill the beer, then carbonate it, and then bring it back to room temp for storage? Or should I carbonate it at room temp? Thanks!

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i wouldn't expect much extra sediment as a result of natural carbing.

their isn't enough sugar added to cause the yeast to multiply

you can force carb at room temp but the psi will have to be set around 30+ dep on the temp of the room

terrapinj said:

easiest method would be to naturally carb the kegs

let them carb at room temp by using priming sugar (usually about half the amount you would use when bottling)

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Why less sugar than when bottle conditioning? Unless you are forcing the rest of the carbonation, I don't understand.

it has to do with the amount of headspace in a single keg vs individual bottles

my understanding is that less headspace = less co2 needed

So if I were to just charge the keg for 10 minutes worth of co2, then release the pressure, and then charge it again, that would be enough to set it aside to be stored? Thanks again for the info!

lehr said:

You want some co2 in the kegs to store them so that they don't oxidize from 02 plus pressure will keep a much better seal.

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When I said "seal the kegs," I meant sealing them with CO2, but not enough to carbonate the beer...

kfeldman said:

So if I were to just charge the keg for 10 minutes worth of co2, then release the pressure, and then charge it again, that would be enough to set it aside to be stored? Thanks again for the info!

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You shouldn't even need to charge it for that long if you just want to seal it for storage. Fill and purge your keg with CO2 a good deal of times, then put like 12-15 PSI in it and call it good. That should be enough pressure to seal the keg and then you could store it in your basement without any worries. Just make sure there aren't any leaks on your keg's seals!

awesome! Thanks for the help! Would you say that the beer should stay good for months? Obviously when I am ready to drink it, I would hook it back up to the co2 while it was cold. Thanks again!

Yes, should be good for months. Remember as was previously stated : Its just a big bottle, so its good for as long a your beer would be good in a bottle.

This thread was just what I was looking for. I have a keg in my keezer that I need to pull out to cold condition a keg of Beermuncher's Ocktoberfast for a party at the end of September. I was going to bottle it using his "We no need a stinking beer gun". Now I can pull the keg and put it back in later to finish it off. I'm guessing putting it in a couple days to chill and possibly recharge the co2?

Toivo said:

This thread was just what I was looking for. I have a keg in my keezer that I need to pull out to cold condition a keg of Beermuncher's Ocktoberfast for a party at the end of September. I was going to bottle it using his "We no need a stinking beer gun". Now I can pull the keg and put it back in later to finish it off. I'm guessing putting it in a couple days to chill and possibly recharge the co2?

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Yes, you should be fine. I did this with my last keg (which was actually my first keg, ha ha) and it worked fine. I made sure the keg was sealed and pressurized so it was a sure seal, and then I was able to store it in my basement. When I was ready to tap it, I got it cold and then charged it with CO2 for a few days. It worked great.

homebrewbeliever said:

You could also just seal the kegs, not carb them, and then store them in your basement...

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That would be a rookie mistake, and ya hate to see that happen.

If the beer is not carbed first, and you just pressurize the head space, that little bit of CO2 will be absorbed by the uncarbonated beer in short order, leaving the head space unpressurized. For those folks who need to pressurize the keg to seal it, that seal won't last for long.

If you are anything but totally certain a keg will remain sealed without any internal pressure, it's best to carbonate first, then set the keg aside...

Cheers!

Would I need to chill the keg then to carbonate, and then bring it back to room temperature after it has been carbonated? Is the temperature change going to ruin the beer?

You can carbonate your beer at just about any temperature.
The trickiness happens due to solvency of Co2 in a liquid varies by temperature.

So, if you want to carbonate your beer to 2.5 volumes at 36 degrees, you need to set your pressure to about 10 PSI

If your beer is at 65 degrees, and you want the same level of carbonation, you need to set your pressure to about 29 PSI!

Please note that both of these methods will use the same volume of gas! And when the beer carb'd at 29 PSI is dropped to 36 degrees, it's still only at 2.5 volumes, and should be hooked up to 10 PSI.
If you want to experiment, try this next time you have 2 kegs:
Put one in the cooler at 36 degrees, and hit it with 10PSI for a couple weeks.
Put another one outside the cooler at 65 degrees, and hit it with 29PSI for a couple weeks.
When you put them both in the cooler, and they reach the same temperature, they will be carbonated the same.

It's the same principal as storing your Co2 tank in the cooler. When it's warm it's 600 PSI and when it's cold it's 200 PSI - But, it's still the same volume of Co2 in the tank.

See the carb chart here:
http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php

day_trippr said:

That would be a rookie mistake, and ya hate to see that happen.

If the beer is not carbed first, and you just pressurize the head space, that little bit of CO2 will be absorbed by the uncarbonated beer in short order, leaving the head space unpressurized. For those folks who need to pressurize the keg to seal it, that seal won't last for long.

If you are anything but totally certain a keg will remain sealed without any internal pressure, it's best to carbonate first, then set the keg aside...

Cheers!

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I do not claim to know that much, but how so? I have heard of so many people aging their beer in kegs... From what I have heard, they do this under a bit of pressure. You just need to check it on occasion to make sure the pressure hasn't dipped to far. How do people age their beer in kegs if they cannot seal them with CO2 and then age them?

homebrewbeliever said:

I do not claim to know that much, but how so? I have heard of so many people aging their beer in kegs... From what I have heard, they do this under a bit of pressure. You just need to check it on occasion to make sure the pressure hasn't dipped to far. How do people age their beer in kegs if they cannot seal them with CO2 and then age them?

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The small amount of CO2 in the headspace gets absorbed within a few hours, which adds next to zero carbonation. This means there's only the slightest positive pressure inside the keg, and the slightest drop in beer temp can overcome this to create negative pressure in the keg. Negative pressure can easily break the seal, since kegs are designed to hold pressure, not a vacuum. I'm also not sure how you'd check the pressure on the keg without releasing what little of it might be there. The thing you need to keep an eye on is actually the temperature of the keg.

If the highest temp the beer has reached post fermentation is significantly colder than the storage temp, and the keg is sealed with pressure before it can warm up, and there's little to no fluctuation in the ambient temps, then losing the seal is much less likely because there will always be positive pressure. When I age uncarbonated kegs, I take them from my ferm chamber at 65F, seal with 30 psi, and then move them to my closet which stays at 76F. I also have adjusted all of my kegs and lubed the o-rings so that they seal well even without any pressure.

homebrewbeliever said:

I do not claim to know that much, but how so? I have heard of so many people aging their beer in kegs... From what I have heard, they do this under a bit of pressure. You just need to check it on occasion to make sure the pressure hasn't dipped to far. How do people age their beer in kegs if they cannot seal them with CO2 and then age them?

Click to expand...

Your beer will absorb Co2. How much Co2 it will absorb is based on pressure and temperature (Per the chart I linked above)
For instance:
Your un-carbonated beer will absorb twice its volume in Co2 if you apply 16 PSI at 60 degrees. This takes time. The volume of headspace in your keg is let's say 1/10th of the volume of the beer. If you apply 16 PSI to that headspace, your beer will absorb that Co2, lowering the pressure (Because you don't have a Co2 bottle feeding it more gas to keep up with the Co2 absorbed by your beer). Only once your beer has absorbed twice it's volume in gas, at that pressure and temperature, will it stop absorbing Co2 from the headspace. This is what we call "balanced".
Once balanced, you can remove the gas from the keg, and have "positive" pressure holding the lid tight. This is because your beer can't absorb any more Co2 when applied at 16 PSI, so that pressure remains in the headspace.
If the beer is under that balance, it will absorb the gas that's creating the pressure in the headspace. No more pressure to hold the lid shut.

Probably clear as mud...

Beer is like a sponge:
If I have a glass with 10oz of water in it and I shove a sponge into that glass of water, and the capacity of that sponge is 12oz, it'll absorb all of the water, and the sponge (Your beer) will be exposed to air.
If I want there to be water above the sponge (Co2 above the beer, in your case) I have to add more water (Co2) to the glass - Until the Sponge is saturated, and can absorb no more water.

If I put the dry sponge in the empty glass, and throw 5 oz of water at it really fast, it's still going to absorb that 5 oz and be exposed to the air.

You have to saturate the beer with Co2 before it will quit absorbing it. Until that point, any Co2 you add to the headspace will be consumed by the beer.

Hell, now I'm just confusing myself

Okay, I see what ya'll mean. Thanks for the knowledge!