First Lager Attempt

Hey All,
My porter tap finally dried up so I plan on brewing again this weekend. (My Hefe is still on tap so I won't be going dry just yet).
I want to try a lager this time now that I have the means. I'm planning an AG Spaten Munich clone (from Clonebrews).
Since I've never lagered before I'm not sure what is really important and what is not. I would like to keep this rather simple for a first attempt.
Is a diacetyl rest necessary? What am I likely to notice?
Should I be stepping down the temp or crash cooling? (according to the forum this is personal preference, I think...)
The recipe doesn't say how long or at what temperature to lager. According to "How to Brew" I should lager at roughly 10 degrees lower than primary fermentation. Is this the standard? How long should I lager at that temp? 2-3 months? More/less?

You should do the primary fermentation as close to what the optimum temperature recommended by the yeast manufactuere is, probably in the 50-55 degree range, and then step down for the lagering period to whatever you can steadily keep the temperature at above freezing (I keep my fridge at 39). From what I have read of lagering, if you pitch the yeast at the primary temperature, you do not need a diacetyl rest; if you pitch at room temperature and then move it to the primary temperature after active fermentation, you should do one (this I believe was according to Noonan).

Length of lagering is up to you--I'd probably be drinking it after 6 weeks.

Good luck.

Great!
Thanks for the help jeffg.

Actually you would need it more if you started and fermented at colder temps than if you did it warm. It may not be nesessary to do a diacetyl rest if you let your primary ferment fully before racking to the clearing/lagering tank.
And it is only some yeasts that throw a lot of diacetyl to begin with.

Now this is my method ( the right way ). LOL.

Pitch a big starter yeast at fermenting temps into properly prepared wort at fermenting temps (usually about 50f). Let brew 2 to 3 weeks and warm up to about 60f until ferment is fully finished. Rack into your carboy and cool to lagering temps (in my case 34f) for 1 to 2 months. Bottle or keg.

Lagering is really pretty easy, it just lakes longer. Ferment at around 50F, rest at room temp for a couple/three days, lager at 35-40f for a couple months. Easy Peasy Japaneasy (I've been drinkin)

boo boo said:

Actually you would need it more if you started and fermented at colder temps than if you did it warm.

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How do you figure?

The single biggest piece of advice is to make a starter. I generally don't make starters for any of my ales but have found it an absolute necessity for lagers.

jeffg said:

How do you figure?

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Diacetyl is a by-product of yeast in an oxygenated environment, i.e., aerobic activity. It can be generated regardless of temperature (as long as the yeast is active). Yeast in a warmer environment are better able to reduce diacetyl into more flavorless compounds and below the threshold of most people's perception...this is the basic theory behind a diacetyl rest. However, even yeast in a cooler environment can reduce diacetyl given a chance.

Why not pitch warm, then? Because you will also generate esters which are not desired in a lager.

Therefore, and to reiterate what boo boo was getting at and to answer the OP's question, a diacetyl rest is not mandatory, but you will want to give the yeast time to reduce it. Reduce the temperature slowly, 1-2 degrees/day, so as not to shock the yeast and it will continue working for you during the lagering phase. Not fermenting for attenuation, but reducing unwanted compounds such as diacetyl.

Also note that diacetyl is desired in some beers, such as Urquell...

I have only 3 lagers under my belt but I have only done a d-rest once and that one is still lagering so I cannot tell if there is a difference. I usually let ferment for 3 weeks which seems to clear up everything before I lager. I always pitch at or below ferment temps and everything has come out good so far.
This seems like a long going debate on wether to do a d-rest or not. I am on the fence with it and believe that some yeasts produce more and might benefit more then others. The only lager yeasts I have used is Wyeast 2124 and 2308. It is easy to do a d-rest so if that is what you want to do then do it.

Along the same lines of the Baron's thought - if you ferment a lager at warmer temps (in an attempt not to need to do a D-rest) you are no longer making a lager, but are making a steam beer.

A lager is not so much just the yeast you use, but a process. Ferment at the lower temp ~45-55 degree range, D-rest, lower storage temp (close to freezing) and longer conditioning times. (Not meant as a complete list, just basics)

Pitching and fermenting at a higher temp in the attempt to skip a step is to no longer be making a lager. Lagers are all about the flavors that come from the process and temps, not skipping steps and finding a way around a step you don't want to do and trying to find a way to do it faster... If you need a beer now, make an ale.

A good lager takes time.

Yes a D-rest is needed - if you truly are planning on a lager, otherwise, make an ale. Lager yeast is a slow acting, bottom fermenting yeast.

Interesting. I was under the impression diacetyl production was reduced when fermentation started at lower temperatures and that this was one of the benefits of pitching at lager temps (including the starter) versus pitching warm. I was going to start lagering my dopplebock tonight, maybe i should consider warming it up first.

Thanks.

I like the lines DC was thinking on....whenever I have to go down the lager road, I try to get some SF Lager yeast. You can get away with fermenting at a bit warmer temps, and the yeast will maintain the characteristics of normal lager yeast.

dcbrewmeister said:

Yes a D-rest is needed - if you truly are planning on a lager, otherwise, make an ale. Lager yeast is a slow acting, bottom fermenting yeast.

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I disagree with this...many lagers are brewed with a diacetyl rest. It depends on the propensity of the yeast strain to form diacetyl, and if you are trying to shorten the lagering phase. Some yeasts don't generate significant diacetyl, and a longer lagering phase will usually clean it up anyways.

jeffg said:

Interesting. I was under the impression diacetyl production was reduced when fermentation started at lower temperatures and that this was one of the benefits of pitching at lager temps (including the starter) versus pitching warm. I was going to start lagering my dopplebock tonight, maybe i should consider warming it up first.

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The biggest benefit I see to pitching at fermentation temps is that certain byproducts, particularly esters and fusel alcohols, are reduced. At least that's why I do it. I also have a Doppelbock that I brewed back at Christmas. I didn't do a diacetyl rest because it will have been fermenting and lagering for 4 months before I keg it which should be enough time for the yeast to clean up any diacetyl that may have been generated (the yeast I used isn't known for diacetyl in the first place). OTOH, I did a diacetyl rest with an Oktoberfest I brewed last year and it's not a lot of trouble and that beer was fine.

In any case, I don't really disagree with anybody's procedures that garners the results that they're happy with - just understand what you're doing and why you're doing it (to a reasonable level).

jeffg said:

How do you figure?

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At warmer temps the yeast are more active in cleaning up
the diacetyl.
I do it the Barrons way as I feel this advoids any potential
higher alcohol or ester production leaving my lagers clean,
the way I like them.

Ok, but it still does not make sense to me that you need a D-rest more if you pitch at lager temps than at ale temps and then cool down. I follow what you are saying about warmer temps and active yeast reducing diacetyl--but that is at the end of the primary fermentation phase. At initial fermentation, warmer temps are creating more diacetyl--if you pitch cold you reduce diacetyl production (but don't eliminate it). Or at least that is my understanding. Maybe I need to go read Palmer again...

jeffg said:

Ok, but it still does not make sense to me that you need a D-rest more if you pitch at lager temps than at ale temps and then cool down. I follow what you are saying about warmer temps and active yeast reducing diacetyl--but that is at the end of the primary fermentation phase. At initial fermentation, warmer temps are creating more diacetyl--if you pitch cold you reduce diacetyl production (but don't eliminate it). Or at least that is my understanding. Maybe I need to go read Palmer again...

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It is removed by the yeast. Faster when fermented warm, slower when fermented cold. As long as it completly ferments out, you should get rid of all or at least most of the diacetyl.
When you ferment at regular lager fermenting temps, the ferment is slow in which case you get a cleaner profile. When 3/4 or so of the fermentation is finished then you raise the temps up so the yeast can eat the rest of the diacetyl while having less effect on ester production because it is past that particular stage of fermentation.

Edited to remove confusion by my part between DMS and diacetyl. DMS is produced in the boil.
Diacetyl is produced by the yeast.

Sorry for the confusion and I'll drink 5 lagers in repentance.

Diacetyl and other vicinal diketones can be generated by the yeast during the aerobic phase of fermentation and I do believe that warmer temperatures will contribute more diketones than cooler. However, you'll also get esters and fusel alcohols which are problematic in a lager. Warmer temperatures during the anaerobic phase of fermentation will clean up the diketones such as diacetyl because they can't be produced without oxygen). But again, some strains are known for throwing it, others aren't. I'd be inclined to wait until I have a diacetyl issue before I do anymore diacetyl rests.

I've done exactly one lager. A Pils, which is still lagering. Been there for about a month. I took an HBT poll, and at the end of the day, the majority of people said that I should pitch at room temps and wait for fermentation to begin. Then, at the first signs of airlock activity, drop to the low 50's.

So, by way of majoritarian rule, I took the HBT community's advice and did so.

What happened? I never had a fighting chance for a diacetyl rest. Here I was, anticipating 3 weeks or so of fermentation. Instead, I went from 1.053 to 1.011 in 3 days or so. Yeah. So, no rest for me. Anyway, next time, I'm gonna try it the other way, and pitch at ferment temps, just to see if it takes longer. I kept the temps down, and the fermometer registered correct the whole time, so it wasn't like it was a vigorous enough fermentation to raise the temps much. But anyway, I don't notice much diacetyl, but you never know until it's bottled. And no, I don't get any esters or anything like that, even though I did pitch at room temp (62f or so)

You know what true democracy is, right? Mob rule!

But seriously, people do it both ways and make good beer.

Baron von BeeGee said:

You know what true democracy is, right? Mob rule!

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Uh huh, which is why we live in a constitutional republic and not a democracy. But that's getting to be less and less so as the days march on. But I digress....polls here are a good thing!

But seriously, people do it both ways and make good beer.

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Yeah, I'm gonna try the other way, like I said, and see what happens. I was just terribly worried when I took that gravity reading. I thought my hydro'd broke or something.

My only disapointment with my lagers have been bittering issues.
When a recipie calls for 6 AAU's and I use it, I don't seem to get the IBU's that I imagine it should have.
I have since formed the conclusion that my long storage hops have lost enough bittering potential that I have to either start using fresher hops or adjust for the AAU loss.
My next lager will try to imatiate PU so my bittering will be around 8 to 11 AAU's.
Time will tell.

But seriously, people do it both ways and make good beer.

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Very true. If it makes good beer then continue what you are doing. I have seen numerous debates on this topic and people are very pro d-rest and others are not. It all depends on how the beer turns out.

boo boo said:

My only disapointment with my lagers have been bittering issues.
When a recipie calls for 6 AAU's and I use it, I don't seem to get the IBU's that I imagine it should have.
I have since formed the conclusion that my long storage hops have lost enough bittering potential that I have to either start using fresher hops or adjust for the AAU loss.
My next lager will try to imatiate PU so my bittering will be around 8 to 11 AAU's.
Time will tell.

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Most lagers are very mild to flat out bland on the bittering issue, like Beck's for one. Pretty bland on the hops point, but a smooth, easy drinking brew on a hot day.

I made a pseudo lager using Wyeast 2112. I made a starter and pitched it at 60F. It fermented at this temperature for about ten days in the primary. No diacetyl rest. It was then put in the secondary for about a month at 50F. I made the gap ten degrees F as according to Palmer. I thought 60 was pretty low for 2112 and 50 was pretty high for "lagering". I have since read that 2112 can actually ferment at lower temperatures if you want. I bottled it and moved it to room temperature to carbonate for three weeks.

Anyhow, I tasted it at racking from primary to secondary and it was OK. I tasted it again at bottling time and I thought this is going to be pretty good. Then I opened one after a week of carbonation, just to test and... overwhelming butterscotch, yuk! How did this happen?

could have been 1. worts with high amounts of sugars and starches
2. worts low in the amino acid valine
3. decreased flocculation and settling of yeast by weak yeast and or premature wort cooling
4. defective yeast
5. short wort boiling - increased temperture initially increases diacetyl production but then promotes its reduction so short boils won't allow completion of the second diacetyl reduction stage.
6. excess oxygen in the wort which causes diacetyl production by alternative reaction pathways