Yield and Efficiency

I'm sitting here playing around with ProMash (still getting the hang of it) trying to put together my first partial mash recipe, but I'm still a little confused. I noticed that the yield for LME and 2-row pale malt is roughly the same (approx 80%). I also understand that with the 2-row malt, 75-85% efficiency would be a decent expectation from the mash. As far as the LME, can I assume a hypothetical 100% efficiency with it? In case that question doesn't make sense, if the yield from the LME is 80%, do I have to multiply by a certain efficiency percentage (like I would with grain), in turn reducing the pppg? Or can I assume that all 80% of the LME will be available as fermentables?

captaineriv

captaineriv said:

I'm sitting here playing around with ProMash (still getting the hang of it) trying to put together my first partial mash recipe, but I'm still a little confused. I noticed that the yield for LME and 2-row pale malt is roughly the same (approx 80%). I also understand that with the 2-row malt, 75-85% efficiency would be a decent expectation from the mash. As far as the LME, can I assume a hypothetical 100% efficiency with it? In case that question doesn't make sense, if the yield from the LME is 80%, do I have to multiply by a certain efficiency percentage (like I would with grain), in turn reducing the pppg? Or can I assume that all 80% of the LME will be available as fermentables?

captaineriv

Click to expand...

No you can not expect 100 percent from anything. Let's start with the LME. It's a syrup. This means that it has water in it, 20 percent give or take. This explains the 80 percent number for the LME.

The fermentability also comes into play when you're talking about points per pound. The points per pound tell you how many points on the hydrometer you'll acheive when adding 1 pound to 1 gallon. Depending on the dextrine content of your LME, you may be getting only about 65 percent fermentables from the 80 percent sugar your adding.

I see what you're saying. Since I've always worked with extracts (usually LME) for fermentables, I'm basically trying to figure out (roughly) how many lbs. of grain (80% yield at say...75% efficiency) would equal 1 lb. of the average LME.

captaineriv

Very close to to the same pound per pound a far as P/P/G only that your mash extract effeciency will determin what you really get. If your effeciency is at 80% then you will need 1.2 pounds of grain to equal 1 pound of LME.

Look at the numbers given on this spreadsheet:

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator

You'll see 37 or 38 points given for pale malts and 37 points given for LME.

And for 1 pound of DME, it's about 1.4 lbs of 2-row pale.

I've found the 1.3 to 1.5 lb grain per lb extract to be roughly accurate. However, assuming this is your first grain batch (mashing) then assume a low efficiency of say 65% - 70% for your mash. If it comes out too strong, which it probably will, then lower the gravity by adding some water. After that first batch get your efficiency straight and then just play with the lbs of base grain to get your projected gravity to the appropriate mark assuming you'll have the same or slightly better efficiency than the first batch. Personally, I find this method works much better than guessing 1.5 lbs grain per lb of extract. When you consider the fact that extracts vary - liquid vs. dry and light vs. dark - and so do people's efficiencies there's no real straightforward simple conversion.

Now, if you're wondering about your specialty grains then I'd say your conversion rate of 1.5 to 1 is off the mark. Mashing specialty grains and steeping them is very different. If I'm converting an extract w/grains receipe to all grain then I generally go by the recommended rate - i.e. 10 - 15% of grainbill for x style, and by the effect the grain addition has on the color, and I may consult some other all grain receipes for a similiar beer (same style) and see how much of that particular grain they use. Of course this all gets considerably more difficult when you're also factoring in the effect of extracts.

As for the fermentables, I'd assume promash takes that into account for any particular grain or extract. It probably assumes less fermentables in darker extract and more in lighter extract.. play around with it and see. I know my cheap arse free program does this so I don't see why a fancy program like promash wouldn't.

Really, I think this is one of those areas where brewing becomes more of an art and not so much of a science. You can always post the receipe and see what the pros here have to say. I'm probably not the best person to be commenting on this topic since I never did a partial mash but went straight from extract w/grains (steeping) to all grain..

Anyhow, I hope this helps.

Garr, damn back button wiping my post

If Promash, or any other software you come across, can calculate the % of fermentables (as in predicted % of fermentables vs dextrins, etc) please let me know. That would be very cool

Referring to the OP, "efficiency" is how much of a material's maximum ppg you obtain when thrown in, so extracts, sugars, etc are going to give you 100% efficiency every time. Grains never hit 100% though (ie, I typically get 70%).

When you refer to yield, are you talking about ppg? Or % yield?

I believe yield is ppg and efficiency is the ratio between possible extraction and actual extraction... I think you've got it right. Thus, efficiency is a concern for the ag brewer but not for the extract brewer. Whatever sugar is in the extract is exactly what you'll get out of it each time you use it - you're effective utilization of the extract will not vary. However, the actual fermentables you get from the extract will vary as I said before by dry vs. liquid and light vs. dark.

I use qbrew.. it's nice and simple and gives me projected og and fg, abv, srm, and ibus. I'm looking it over and I don't think it estimates fermentables vs. nonfermentables... so my original statement looks to be just plain wrong. Sorry for any confusion. I agree though, it would be nice to know exactly how much of that sugar is going to end up as alcohol and how much is going to be body.

Unfortunately, even though it would be simple for extract manufacturers to give us the fermentable/unfermentable numbers, they can be difficult to dig up. Brewing in California, I was used to getting this information, but that was because the Oak Barrel in Berkeley purchased their extract in 55 gallon drums & had the paperwork available. They kept 7-8 extracts available in barrels sitting in racks and you just tapped off what you wanted. I haven't seen anything like this in Oregon.