Westvleteren 12 Group Brew & Swap

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Ok, so this is going down on Sunday. I'll be making a starter tonight but the pitching calculator says 3L (1.090/5 gallons). I want to underpitch, right? So should I do 2, 2.5...?

I was going to do a decoction but the last high gravity beer I made turned out to be, uh, normal gravity and so I'm going to (a) hope that now I'm more in tune with my processes (and am fly sparging) and (b) not mess with more than one variable at a time. So a single infusion at 147, huh? I can dig it.

I need some smaller fermenters so I can do 1/3 gal batches of stuff. That sounds fun.
 
Ok, so this is going down on Sunday. I'll be making a starter tonight but the pitching calculator says 3L (1.090/5 gallons). I want to underpitch, right? So should I do 2, 2.5...?

I was going to do a decoction but the last high gravity beer I made turned out to be, uh, normal gravity and so I'm going to (a) hope that now I'm more in tune with my processes (and am fly sparging) and (b) not mess with more than one variable at a time. So a single infusion at 147, huh? I can dig it.

I need some smaller fermenters so I can do 1/3 gal batches of stuff. That sounds fun.

I'd probably not do a single infusion for the "traditional" recipe, as the decoct is there to add biscuit/aromatic flavors, and without the decoct, I think you'd be missing that aspect of the beer. If you're really set on a single infusion, perhaps throw in 8oz of biscuit to the mash to give that breadyness.
 
I'm brewing the "traditional" recipe tomorrow with two bottles of D1, 7.5lbs pale, 7.5lbs pils and a 2 hour boil. I was looking at doing a "traditional" mash (decoction) but I'm not sure what would be appropriate here. I'm open for opinions! Right now I'm just looking at a double infusion at the following schedule.

2 min Mash Ingredients

Protein Rest:
Add 16.50 qt of water at 132.0 F
30 min - Hold mash at 122.0 F for 30 min

2 min Saccrification: Add 12.00 qt of water at 196.9 F
30 min - Hold mash at 150.0 F for 30 min

-- Sparge with 2.95 gal of 168.0 F water.
-- Add water to achieve boil volume of 8.27 gal
 
I'm brewing the "traditional" recipe tomorrow with two bottles of D1, 7.5lbs pale, 7.5lbs pils and a 2 hour boil. I was looking at doing a "traditional" mash (decoction) but I'm not sure what would be appropriate here. I'm open for opinions! Right now I'm just looking at a double infusion at the following schedule.

2 min Mash Ingredients

Protein Rest:
Add 16.50 qt of water at 132.0 F
30 min - Hold mash at 122.0 F for 30 min

2 min Saccrification: Add 12.00 qt of water at 196.9 F
30 min - Hold mash at 150.0 F for 30 min

-- Sparge with 2.95 gal of 168.0 F water.
-- Add water to achieve boil volume of 8.27 gal

I'm partial to the "enhanced double decoction" as described on the brewing wiki. It's benefits are as follows, a) more mash is boiled for more decoction flavor, and b) the protein rest can be as short as you like, whereas in the normal double decoction, you have to hold it at protein rest temp for as long as it takes to pull the decoction, raise decoction to sacc rest temps and rest, raise decoction to boil and boil for as long as you like before adding back to the mash. I'd also recommend a protein rest temp around 133. At 122, youll be sacrificing head retention, especially if you hold it for a long time.
 
I'm brewing the "traditional" recipe tomorrow with two bottles of D1, 7.5lbs pale, 7.5lbs pils and a 2 hour boil. I was looking at doing a "traditional" mash (decoction) but I'm not sure what would be appropriate here. I'm open for opinions! Right now I'm just looking at a double infusion at the following schedule.

2 min Mash Ingredients

Protein Rest:
Add 16.50 qt of water at 132.0 F
30 min - Hold mash at 122.0 F for 30 min

2 min Saccrification: Add 12.00 qt of water at 196.9 F
30 min - Hold mash at 150.0 F for 30 min

-- Sparge with 2.95 gal of 168.0 F water.
-- Add water to achieve boil volume of 8.27 gal

If I were to do this again (and I might), I'd probably do a single decoct looking something like this:

infuse to 146, rest for 30, draw off 4.5 qts (mash continues to rest during next few steps) bring the draw off to a boil, hold at boil for 10 mins (sturring), add back to main mash (this should take the other 30 mins of the 146 mash rest) this should bring the mash up to 156ish, hold for 20 mins, drain off. (you discussed earlier not to mash-out)
 
After going back and forth endlessly it seems like I'm going to do it Freezeblade's way. I get to decoct but if I screw it up it's only 4.6 qts of the mash gone, and the rest has already gone through a 60 min mash at 147 so it should be pretty idiot proof. If I rested at 122 and then messed things up then we'd have an issue.
 
Ok, heres a single infusion & single decoction off of freeze's info for my recipe.

Mash Ingredients
Protein Rest: Add 30.00 qt of water at 154.9 F
30 min - Hold mash at 146.0 F for 30 min
10 min Saccharification: Decoct 5.39 qt of mash and boil it
20 min - Hold mash at 156.0 F for 20 min
-- Sparge with 2.57 gal of 168.0 F water.
 
I plan on adding all 3 pounds of D1 at the beginning of the boil. This should get me closer to the target 38 SRM and might help account for some of the interesting flavors the monks get.
 
I've been talking with my club about this, and most people seem to have serious reservations about the traditional recipe. Essentially they're saying that we won't get the dark fruit/etc flavors from the syrup like we're hoping. I trust these people a lot (they leave competitions with wreaths of medals around their neck, and one is currently the NYS Homebrewer of the Year by a large margin) but I think we should go ahead with things anyway. For one, I've already bought the ingredients :D But also, even if it's not a good Westy clone, or a good quad, it'll at least still be good beer, right?
 
I've been talking with my club about this, and most people seem to have serious reservations about the traditional recipe. Essentially they're saying that we won't get the dark fruit/etc flavors from the syrup like we're hoping. I trust these people a lot (they leave competitions with wreaths of medals around their neck, and one is currently the NYS Homebrewer of the Year by a large margin) but I think we should go ahead with things anyway. For one, I've already bought the ingredients :D But also, even if it's not a good Westy clone, or a good quad, it'll at least still be good beer, right?

Hey, the monks are able to do it right? Either way, we'll be able to compare the two approaches in the swap and see for ourselves. It'll be a fun comparison.
 
I've been talking with my club about this, and most people seem to have serious reservations about the traditional recipe. Essentially they're saying that we won't get the dark fruit/etc flavors from the syrup like we're hoping. I trust these people a lot (they leave competitions with wreaths of medals around their neck, and one is currently the NYS Homebrewer of the Year by a large margin) but I think we should go ahead with things anyway. For one, I've already bought the ingredients :D But also, even if it's not a good Westy clone, or a good quad, it'll at least still be good beer, right?

Tell them to pick up Brew Like A Monk and read the section about Westvleteren and the 12. Stan (the writer) went on a serious quest through Belgium talking to all the Trappist brewers about all the details they were willing to share.
Westvleteren kept some secrets, but they shared a lot of cold hard facts. Below are the things we know for sure, providing that Brother Joris didn't lie to Stan, which I seriously doubt.

There are only two grains used, Belgian Pale and Belgian Pils, and they get it from Dingemans. We don't know their mash schedule, or if they use undermodified malts.

They use Westmalle yeast, purchased from Westmalle and pitched on brewday. See the first page for fermentation details, we have the full schedule and temps. We don't know pitching amount in cell count per ml, but its probably inline with most other belgian brewers, ie underpitching compared to standard american rates by about 20-30%.

They use a large amount of sugar syrup in the beer. We don't know how much but Stan estimates between 16 and 20% of the total sugars come from the syrup. We also don't know how they make it.

The SRM of the beer is 38.

The secret of this beers very delicious aspect obviously lies in how modified their malts are, how much sugar they use and how they make it, boil time (all we know is at least 60 minutes), their mashing schedule and what kind & hop much hops to use. Its a balancing act because this beers flavors blend so well together.

There are some educated guesses as to what hops they used based off information that has been gleaned from very high profile people over the years (including papazian and michael jackson) and people feel pretty comfortable when they used all pellets it was northern brewer for bittering, and styrian goldings and hersbucker for flavor. They now use a hop extract for bittering.

This is a lot of information, but still lacking a significant amount. One of my goals for this Brew & Swap was to see who is going to get the closest when I taste them all against the real thing :)
 
Oh yeah, I really respect all of them but I'm not going to bail on the swap just because I don't think I'll make what I'm going for. I've never had Westy 12 so it could be totally off and I wouldn't know. I have three goals with this beer:

1. Participate in a swap, because it seems like fun
2. Make a high gravity, cellar-friendly in honor of the birth of my first kid
3. Make a good beer

I think that regardless this will hit all three.
 
Well I'm getting ready to start heating the strike water. The recipe I'm going with is...
12.5 lbs American pale malt
1 lb Caramunich
8oz Victory (no biscuit at LHBS)
5oz Aromatic
4oz Special B
3oz Chocolate
3lbs homemade candi syrup

0.6oz Magnum 60min
1oz Hallertau 15min
1oz Tettnang 15min

90min mash at 148
90min boil
2ltr starter of WLP530 in Pilsen DME

I'll probably be updating the brewday on Twitter if anyone is interested in following along.

chrifive916 (chrifive916) on Twitter

edit - Late hop additions are supposed to be at 15. Typoed it in beersmith.
 
Different recipe eh? Well if you send it I will drink it :)
I'm just about to brew the traditional recipe with my single decoct. Making my water right now. I'll take pictures with my 3lbs of D1.
 
Different recipe eh? Well if you send it I will drink it :)
I'm just about to brew the traditional recipe with my single decoct. Making my water right now. I'll take pictures with my 3lbs of D1.

I tried to get as close to the "new world" as possible with the hops I had on hand. Hopefully it should be close.

Your post made me recheck teh recipe, and notice I typoed the late hop additions!
 
Heres my final brewsheet for my Traditional recipe

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 8.27 gal
Estimated OG: 1.092 SG
Estimated Color: 22.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 37.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 120 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 41.67 %
7.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 41.67 %
0.75 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] (120 min) Hops 19.7 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.80 %] (45 min)Hops 7.3 IBU
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] (45 min) Hops 10.7 IBU
3.00 lb Dark 1 Belgian Candi Syrup (80.0 SRM) Sugar 16.67 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Decoction Mash, Single
Total Grain Weight: 15.00 lb
----------------------------
Decoction Mash, Single
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Protein Rest Add 30.00 qt of water at 154.9 F 146.0 F
20 min Saccharification Decoct 5.39 qt of mash and boil it 156.0 F


Notes:
------
Added 3lbs of Dark 1 Candi Syrup at beginning of boil to help darken the color of the beer.
 
Well, somehow I think I missed a gallon of sparge water when I was measuring. Ended up with 3.5 gallons prior to syrup additions, but the gravity appears to be right where it should be, at 1.076 before the syrup.

In addition to missing wort, I had to run over to the LHBS after cooling to buy a new lid for my bucket, since it apparently split at the drilled opening sometime during its previous use.
 
So 7.5 hours later and I'm done. It's 12:22am and I'm spent. The brew didn't go as well as I planned, ended up lighter in color and lower in gravity than I was hoping for. My attempt at making my own candi syrup ended in complete failure. It tasted really tangy and burnt....oh well lesson learned. I had 1.5lbs of commercial belgian candi syrup on hand, but still not the 3lbs I was looking for.

Well its late, and Ive had a few so if you dont mind I'm gonna go pass out.
 
Mashing now. Missed my temps slightly: had 146 and added more water, but by then I think it had cooled down enough that it lowered it to 145 :/ I'm not going to decoct, just because I figure it'll only lead to more temp losses. I'll mash for 90 minutes though.

My starter is effin vigorous. Twice now it's blown out the top of the flask, and once out of the growler I had the 1L in. Do you think I need to smack a second pack of the yeast? I have one since the stuff from BMW didn't arrive until after I needed my starter (my fault, not Ed's), but I don't want to overpitch.
 
So 7.5 hours later and I'm done. It's 12:22am and I'm spent. The brew didn't go as well as I planned, ended up lighter in color and lower in gravity than I was hoping for. My attempt at making my own candi syrup ended in complete failure. It tasted really tangy and burnt....oh well lesson learned. I had 1.5lbs of commercial belgian candi syrup on hand, but still not the 3lbs I was looking for.

Well its late, and Ive had a few so if you dont mind I'm gonna go pass out.

Try the candi syrup again now that you won't feel rushed. It will actually be better for the fermentation if you add it at high krausen anyway.
 
Mashing now. Missed my temps slightly: had 146 and added more water, but by then I think it had cooled down enough that it lowered it to 145 :/ I'm not going to decoct, just because I figure it'll only lead to more temp losses. I'll mash for 90 minutes though.

My starter is effin vigorous. Twice now it's blown out the top of the flask, and once out of the growler I had the 1L in. Do you think I need to smack a second pack of the yeast? I have one since the stuff from BMW didn't arrive until after I needed my starter (my fault, not Ed's), but I don't want to overpitch.

I wouldn't waste the new smack pack. It really won't significantly add to the count you should have in your starter. Save it for something else or make a starter with it in a couple months and use a small portion of that for the yeast added at bottling time and the rest for another beer.
 
Well I decided to see how much I had left in my MLT and got a gallon or so of 1.024... boiling it with the remaining .25oz of NB (which would probably just go to waste otherwise), probably add a bit of honey at flameout and see what happens. I smacked the other pack so I'll be sure I have enough between the two beers. It's probably a waste but what the hell, why not? It's (practically) free beer.
 
Here are some of my brew pics from yesterday. Adding the sugar at the beginning of the 2 hour boil looks like a real winner towards getting the SRM in range.

Here is a straight out of the mash sample without sugars added, somewhere around 5-6 SRM. 8.3 gallons of this
westy12_traditional_presugar_preboil_sm.jpg


Here is a sample before the boil started with 3lbs of Dark Candi Syrup added. Looks like 23-24 SRM. 8.3 gallons of this
westy12_traditional_preboil_sm.jpg


Here is a post-boil sample. Looks like 35+ish SRM. 5.3 gallons of this.
westy12_traditional_postboil_sm.jpg

westy12_traditional_postboil_sm.jpg
 
After seeing pics of your hydro samples I think I'm right on the money as far as color is concerned, but I still need to up the gravity a little. I think I'll take another shot at the candi sugar after work tomorrow.
 
Just added 3lbs of homemade medium amber candi syrup. The stuff smelled amazing, which it better after taking 4 hours to make. :)

I also made up a small batch of wort to help bring up the volume closer to a full 5-gallons.

After just over 18 hours, the original wort had already passed high krausen, but was still bubbling along nicely. I'm expecting some big time activity after adding in all this extra sugar. The beer already in the bucket had a great aroma, but i did not do a hydro test or sample due to it already being after midnight.
 
Holy Hell this thing is blowing off like crazy, I'm so glad I got up last night and put a hose on it. The laundry room would have looked like a carboy bomb went off if I didn't.

Just finished the recipe for the Deep Amber (take two) and it came out much better. On my first try I misunderstood the directions, after taking it to 290 and adding 1.5 cups of water I brought it back up to 290. Well probably higher than that due to my POS thermometer and it tasted awful.

This stuff taste pretty good though, REALLY sweet, but it should due this beer some good seeing how I over shot my IBU's.

Like I said earlier it's blowing off like crazy right now, should I wait until fermentation slows down a bit before adding the syrup or just pull the hose and dump it in really fast?
 
Holy Hell this thing is blowing off like crazy, I'm so glad I got up last night and put a hose on it. The laundry room would have looked like a carboy bomb went off if I didn't.

Just finished the recipe for the Deep Amber (take two) and it came out much better. On my first try I misunderstood the directions, after taking it to 290 and adding 1.5 cups of water I brought it back up to 290. Well probably higher than that due to my POS thermometer and it tasted awful.

This stuff taste pretty good though, REALLY sweet, but it should due this beer some good seeing how I over shot my IBU's.

Like I said earlier it's blowing off like crazy right now, should I wait until fermentation slows down a bit before adding the syrup or just pull the hose and dump it in really fast?

I would wait until fermentation slowed a little. I made the mistake of adding my syrup when it was fermenting really hard and was rewarded with a whooole lot of blowoff within about 10 minutes of adding it. I lost a bunch of beer and yeast due to that.
 
So far the fermcap is doing wonders for me. The blowoff jar is going crazy with bubbles but nothing in the tube. I also think I'm fermenting lower than I need to, but I'm dealing with Buffalo weather here. I'm doing my best!

I only have one temp controller, so would aging it at keg temps be ok? That's a good 10+ degrees lower than recommended. I suppose the answer is 'it better be' because it's that or in the shadowy recesses of my basement, which is probably around 60 or so.
 
Well I went ahead and added the second dose of candi syrup yesterday as soon as I made it. Still blowing off like crazy this morning before I left for the day.

I pulled the tube out of the bucket and you can actually feel the co2 blowing out, freaking amazing!
 
Well I went ahead and added the second dose of candi syrup yesterday as soon as I made it. Still blowing off like crazy this morning before I left for the day.

I pulled the tube out of the bucket and you can actually feel the co2 blowing out, freaking amazing!

Yeah, the only way I avoided blowoff after adding the candi syrup was by putting my 3-gallon batch into a 6.5 gallon bucket, and the foam just barely didn't blow out even with that much head room. 530 is a force to be reckoned with.
 
After spending the week in Tucson, I came home to find it still giving off a bubble every 10 seconds or so. I'm going to do a gravity check tonight when I am kegging my alt bier.

Smells like heaven in that room. :)
 
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