Please critique my process

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soup67

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10 gallon rectangular cooler with braid almost the length of the cooler.

13.5lb grain bill. LHBS crush set @ .041". OG into fermenter at 70% should have been 1.062. Bottled spring water, no adjustments.

Mashed with 5 gallons of 163 degree water. Stirred like crazy. Temp stabilized at 153 after about 5 minutes. Rested for another 50 minutes (1 hour total), stirring once at the 1/2 way point. Vorlaufed and drained 2 2/3 gallons of first runnings.

Sparged with 4 gallons of 190 degree water, stirred like crazy. Grain bed got up to 168ish. Let grain bed settle for a few minutes, vorlaufed and drained 4 gallons of second runnings.

After a 60 minute boil I had 5.5 gallons @ 1.052. 58% eff?

What am I doing wrong?
 
It sounds like a solid process to me.
Was your origional calculations for 5.5 gallons or 5?
Did you adjust for temperature? If you measured your gravity hot and not adjusted for temp it would read low.
 
Sounds pretty good based on your description. When's the last time you calibrated your hydrometer and thermometer? I hope the gap on the grain mill was set to 0.041", and not 0.41", otherwise we found your problem. ;) Are you sure the gap is really what it says it is? The dial on the mill at my LHBS is ~0.010" off, so I have to set it where it reads 0.028" to get a 0.038" gap. How does the crush look?
 
Process does look solid. That said, I don't know how this compares to all the other times you've brewed.

I would look at the quality/age of the grain. Lauter speed. Water chemistry (if you've used this water for the first time with this result).

As an aside, I'd like to compliment you on your spelling of "vorlauf". Thanks for that. ;)
 
soup67 said:
10 gallon rectangular cooler with braid almost the length of the cooler.

13.5lb grain bill. LHBS crush set @ .41". OG into fermenter at 70% should have been 1.062. Bottled spring water, no adjustments.

Mashed with 5 gallons of 163 degree water. Stirred like crazy. Temp stabilized at 153 after about 5 minutes. Rested for another 50 minutes (1 hour total), stirring once at the 1/2 way point. Vorlaufed and drained 2 2/3 gallons of first runnings.

Sparged with 4 gallons of 190 degree water, stirred like crazy. Grain bed got up to 168ish. Let grain bed settle for a few minutes, vorlaufed and drained 4 gallons of second runnings.

After a 60 minute boil I had 5.5 gallons @ 1.052. 58% eff?

What am I doing wrong?
Click to expand...

I am in the exact same boat as you. Myself and friend each brewed a batch last Sunday (each using our own mash tun of different styles) and had the exact same problem: around the 50% eff. range.

Two things I have read elsewhere that could be my problem: too short of a sparge and manifold in the mash tun design (see channeling). I've tried many other methods (batch sparge, decoction, etc.) with similar results. :cross:

Edit: I forgot to mention that my friend used to work at a brewery and is stumped as well. He thought it was my mash tun, so he used his 10gal. igloo cooler with the same results. Could it be the water? That is about the only thing I haven't paid attention to.
 
Paymygasbill77 said:
It sounds like a solid process to me.
Was your origional calculations for 5.5 gallons or 5?
Did you adjust for temperature? If you measured your gravity hot and not adjusted for temp it would read low.
Click to expand...

Yes, 5.5 gallons. Gravity reading was taken at room temperature, so I added .001.
 
Thats par for the course on my brew days as well. However, all my beers still end up tasting great, so I dont sweat the efficiency loss. Its too easy to get hung up on the details. Just enjoy your home brew.
 
Ya that sounds like a good mash but maybe the pH was off? I've heard mixed ideas about the Star San 5.2 pH stabilizer but may give it a shot, who knows maybe it helps and if not u only waste a few bucks
 
pcollins said:
Process does look solid. That said, I don't know how this compares to all the other times you've brewed.

I would look at the quality/age of the grain. Lauter speed. Water chemistry (if you've used this water for the first time with this result).

As an aside, I'd like to compliment you on your spelling of "vorlauf". Thanks for that. ;)
Click to expand...

I can get in the mid 70s in efficiency if sparge until 1.010 and boil for an extra hour+, so this number is fairly typical. I shouldn't have to boil that long to hit a reasonable efficiency number, however. This was a bit of an experiment-- I simply mashed/sparged for a specific volume and measured.

The grain/crush works for my other brewing buddies, although I don't know their precise processes/measurement techniques.

Like Waunabeer, I suspect it is a hardware issue (unless water chemistry would make a .01 difference?) but have no clue what it would be. My mash tun looks just like denny's, with a slightly shorter braid.
 
Re: 5.2

Even better is if you know somebody who has some (homebrew club?) see if you can beg/borrow/steal the required amount (1 tsp?) for one batch and see if that helps. Then decide. I realize it's not that much money but I find that many brewers are very helpful and will be quite willing to lend a hand or 5.2 for the sake of troubleshooting.
 
It sounds like you're batch sparging, in which case the only way hardware could be having any effect on efficiency is if it has a lot of dead space and leaves a lot of wort behind. Splitting the sparge in half to do a double batch sparge would boost the efficiency some, but doesn't really answer the question of why it's low in the first place. Water chemistry is a possibility, but adding 5.2 without any knowledge of what's in the water isn't the best answer IMO. What type of water are you using, and are you filtering it or treating it in any way? When you say you stir like crazy at dough in and after adding the sparge water, how long are you stirring for? And FWIW stirring 1/2 way through the mash won't help you any, and often leads to temp loss.
 
JuanMoore said:
It sounds like you're batch sparging, in which case the only way hardware could be having any effect on efficiency is if it has a lot of dead space and leaves a lot of wort behind. Splitting the sparge in half to do a double batch sparge would boost the efficiency some, but doesn't really answer the question of why it's low in the first place. Water chemistry is a possibility, but adding 5.2 without any knowledge of what's in the water isn't the best answer IMO. What type of water are you using, and are you filtering it or treating it in any way? When you say you stir like crazy at dough in and after adding the sparge water, how long are you stirring for? And FWIW stirring 1/2 way through the mash won't help you any, and often leads to temp loss.
Click to expand...

Yep, a single batch sparge. I have considered doing a double, but I read that the improvements would be modest at best.

I use store bought spring water, with no adjustments. I have not tested it.

I mash with 1.5 qt/lb and stir for probably 5-7 minutes at dough in, about about 1-2 minutes half way, and another 5 minutes or so when I sparge. I do not stir immediately before before draining. My temps stayed above 150 for the entire mash, and near 170 for the sparge.

I'm not worried about being super efficient-- 70% or so without having to boil for 2 hours is what I'm after. Frustrating.:confused:
 
Maybe try different water, use de chlorinated tap water and check results, or different brand of spring water, or distilled water
 
My money is on the crush. Double check the mill at LHBS next time, did you use your own feeler gauge to know it was .041? Or was it just their markings?

Water profile won't change your efficiency THAT much.
 
TheMan said:
My money is on the crush. Double check the mill at LHBS next time, did you use your own feeler gauge to know it was .041? Or was it just their markings?

Water profile won't change your efficiency THAT much.
Click to expand...

I called and asked about the gap. Next time I will take a gauge with me.
 
soup67 said:
Yep, a single batch sparge. I have considered doing a double, but I read that the improvements would be modest at best.

I use store bought spring water, with no adjustments. I have not tested it.

I mash with 1.5 qt/lb and stir for probably 5-7 minutes at dough in, about about 1-2 minutes half way, and another 5 minutes or so when I sparge. I do not stir immediately before before draining. My temps stayed above 150 for the entire mash, and near 170 for the sparge.

I'm not worried about being super efficient-- 70% or so without having to boil for 2 hours is what I'm after. Frustrating.:confused:
Click to expand...

Yeah, splitting the sparge will likely only gain 3-5% efficiency. I would say it's most likely the crush, but if you're sure other people are getting much better efficiency with the same crush then that's not it. How are you measuring your volumes? If they're not accurate it can really throw off your readings quite a bit. Also, when's the last time you calibrated your hydrometer and thermometers?
 
JuanMoore said:
Yeah, splitting the sparge will likely only gain 3-5% efficiency. I would say it's most likely the crush, but if you're sure other people are getting much better efficiency with the same crush then that's not it. How are you measuring your volumes? If they're not accurate it can really throw off your readings quite a bit. Also, when's the last time you calibrated your hydrometer and thermometers?
Click to expand...

Came home for lunch and checked the hydrometer. It is reading .996 in 70 degree purified water. That's 5 points low, right? I should add 5 points to my gravity readings? If so, that means I'm at 65% Or do I have it backwards?
 
I'm no expert and relatively new, but perhaps you could perform an iodine/starch conversion test after/during the mash. If not all of the starches have converted to sugars at this point, you'll know that your problem is with your mash or crush. If however the starches have converted, then you can be sure that your sparging process is inefficient and is not rinsing all of the sugars from the grains.
 
gluttonoussloth said:
I'm no expert and relatively new, but perhaps you could perform an iodine/starch conversion test after/during the mash. If not all of the starches have converted to sugars at this point, you'll know that your problem is with your mash or crush. If however the starches have converted, then you can be sure that your sparging process is inefficient and is not rinsing all of the sugars from the grains.
Click to expand...

This sounds like solid advice.
 
soup67 said:
Came home for lunch and checked the hydrometer. It is reading .996 in 70 degree purified water. That's 5 points low, right? I should add 5 points to my gravity readings? If so, that means I'm at 65% Or do I have it backwards?
Click to expand...

Math looks right to me. Not as bad as you thought.
 
I was having similar problems, efficieincy in the 50's. I switched from a 60 min rest to a 90 min rest. Since I swtitched I have been getting mid 70's.
 
KuntzBrewing said:
Maybe try different water, use de chlorinated tap water and check results, or different brand of spring water, or distilled water
Click to expand...

Distilled water is not a good idea because there is nothing in it. You want some trace minerals for the yeast. I allow my sparge water to rest at least 15 minutes before lautering.
Check your crush, forget the stirring half way through, and double check your thermometers. Do an iodine test.
 
Starderup said:
Distilled water is not a good idea because there is nothing in it. You want some trace minerals for the yeast. I allow my sparge water to rest at least 15 minutes before lautering.
Check your crush, forget the stirring half way through, and double check your thermometers. Do an iodine test.
Click to expand...

That'd work fine but the grain will give plenty of nutrients along with the sugar for the yeast, I actually think distilled is the best cuz the grain will add plenty of nutrients
 
KuntzBrewing said:
That'd work fine but the grain will give plenty of nutrients along with the sugar for the yeast, I actually think distilled is the best cuz the grain will add plenty of nutrients
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but the common census says the opposite.
http://www.homebrewzone.com/homebrew_tips.htm
- Do not use distilled water as the full water base for your batch of homebrew. Use spring water or well water, but not city (chlorinated) water or distilled water. Distilled water lacks minerals and nutrients for proper yeast fermentation to take place.
(homebrewtalk wiki) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Water
Distilled water has has all mineral content stripped from it in a distillation process. It is not recommended for brewing all-grain beer because some minerals are necessary for healthy fermentation. Distilled water is fine though for extract brewing because minerals from the extract manufacturer's water are already in the extract. Distilled water is also useful for diluting hard tap water.
 
Is your efficincy problem a constant thing or was it just for this batch? If you are not getting the correct PH for you mash this could lead to efficincy problems. Mabe try different water or test mash PH and adjust accordingly if you can. Also I have read that a thicker mash increses enzyme activity. Try 1.25qts/lb see if that helps.

Also I heard 5.2 doesnt work very well. Not speaking from experience but have read many times that it fails to do the trick.

Your process sounds pretty solid so I would lean tward the above reasons. Also as mentioned before make sure crush of malt is good. If all else fails you can add and extra pound of malt to achive desired gravity.
 
dezman said:
Is your efficincy problem a constant thing or was it just for this batch? If you are not getting the correct PH for you mash this could lead to efficincy problems. Mabe try different water or test mash PH and adjust accordingly if you can. Also I have read that a thicker mash increses enzyme activity. Try 1.25qts/lb see if that helps.

Also I heard 5.2 doesnt work very well. Not speaking from experience but have read many times that it fails to do the trick.

Your process sounds pretty solid so I would lean tward the above reasons. Also as mentioned before make sure crush of malt is good. If all else fails you can add and extra pound of malt to achive desired gravity.
Click to expand...

It is a constant thing, although not quite as bad as I thought. (Hydro is reading 5 points low.) Explains why my beers, although a little low on OG, have all tasted really good.

Next brew I am going to look at the crush closely and test for conversion at 60 minutes, and then do a double batch sparge. If that doesn't get me where I want to be I will look into water chemistry.

Thanks to all who chimed in. This site is great.
 
soup67 said:
I can get in the mid 70s in efficiency if sparge until 1.010 and boil for an extra hour+, so this number is fairly typical. I shouldn't have to boil that long to hit a reasonable efficiency number, however.
Click to expand...

When calculating the efficiency of the mash/lauter, you need to use pre-boil gravity and volume. If you boil it for hours down into a sticky goo, your efficiency does not change.
 
BrewThruYou said:
When calculating the efficiency of the mash/lauter, you need to use pre-boil gravity and volume. If you boil it for hours down into a sticky goo, your efficiency does not change.
Click to expand...

I hit 79% mashing with 1.25 qts/gal and doing a double batch sparge (with no change in water). I can live with that. Thanks for everyone's help.
 

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