Question about steeping grains...

For an average extract recipe, when you steep your grains what is the best way to get as much out as possible? (Steeping at 150 F for ~30min)

Does rinsing the grain with cold water help pull out extra sugars?

How could you perform some sort of mini-mash with your steeping grains without altering the normal extract brewing process too much?

I like a heavier beer and so far the extract kits that I have tried seem to lack sufficient body...

You won't get much more of out specialty grains. Some people do sparge with 170 degree water over the brewpot (not cold water!) but you don't really get sugars out of them. They are more for color and flavor.

For more body, there are several things that can help. I know Carapils or Dextrine malt (same thing) leave no color or flavor, but body behind in the beer. Some people add maltodextrine to their wort to increase viscosity and mouthfeel. You don't want to over do these things, but a little really helps.

I would also suggest that maybe you're ready to move away from kits and find a recipe you like. You can tweak a recipe however you want, and everyone on the board can help you with ideas.

I've already done a few recipes on my own. My barley wine and spiced cider are my own recipes. Fun stuff.

I'd love to try out all grain brewing, but I know the process is much more involved and requires MORE equipment. I'm already over $1000 into my mini-brewery and don't feel ready to make the jump just yet.

Thanks for the tips, maybe I'll have to order some extra carapils to add to my steeping grains... I also have maltodextrin but I'm not sure on how much to add for adjusting body.

Hmmm, I don't know how much maltodextrine to add either. I also have some but only use it for my son's rootbeer. Carapils is probably your best bet- I can't remember the chemistry but it is supposed to leave long chain carbohydrate molecules behind. Here's an interesting BYO article on carapils: http://byo.com/mrwizard/776.html

You sure don't need much to do the job, maybe .5 pound or so in a heavy bodied beer. I used about 7 ounces in Orfy's Hobgoblin clone.

Edit- AG isn't really terrible involved. It seems like it, but really isn't at all. If you're making good beer with steeping grains and extract, I'd suggest PM or AG. If I can do it, anyone can!

Yooper Chick said:

Hmmm, I don't know how much maltodextrine to add either. I also have some but only use it for my son's rootbeer. Carapils is probably your best bet- I can't remember the chemistry but it is supposed to leave long chain carbohydrate molecules behind. Here's an interesting BYO article on carapils: http://byo.com/mrwizard/776.html

You sure don't need much to do the job, maybe .5 pound or so in a heavy bodied beer. I used about 7 ounces in Orfy's Hobgoblin clone.

Edit- AG isn't really terrible involved. It seems like it, but really isn't at all. If you're making good beer with steeping grains and extract, I'd suggest PM or AG. If I can do it, anyone can!

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PM or AG sound fantastic to me.. My only problem is that my turkey burner only has an 8 gallon pot. I sometimes have trouble not boiling over my extract full boils and I only start with 6 gallons of water. I'm afraid to go AG because of that stupid pot. Not handy enough to make a keggle although if I ever find one close to me reasonable I'll buy it in a minute. What is the average boil amount for an AG batch?

Well, I just have the turkey fryer pot too. I start with 6.4 gallons and watch it carefully until after the hot break. After that, I can walk away, no problem and end up with 5.25 gallons after straining the wort.

Now, your stove/burner may not give you the same results. And you have better efficiency if you start with more wort and boil it down. But I had a very limited budget and bought the turkey fryer earlier this summer. Prior to that, I was splitting my batch and boiling 3.5 gallons in two different kettles and then combining them. (I lost more to evaporation when I was boiling two kettles). My point is, where there is a will there IS a way!

Carapils need to be mashed so your best option would be to just add some malto dextrine.

boo boo said:

Carapils need to be mashed so your best option would be to just add some malto dextrine.

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Thank you for that point on carapils, noted!!

Any ideas on how much maltodextrine to add for a moderate bump in the body of a lower gravity ale?

I added equal amounts of priming sugar and maltodextrin (3/4 cup each) to my Holiday Ale just before bottling. Initial taste test seemed very thin. A few weeks and I'll pop one open and see how it is.

I did not add any malto to my Honey Amber and even though it has not carbed yet, there is almost no head retention at all, I can barely get it to foam up and it doesn't have the desired body either. Thinking malto might have been good addition here too, but I'm just not sure about the quantity. Unless someone on here knows a bit more about that, I'm left to experiment...:cross:

Back in my extract days, I used 1 pound of malto in most of my brews during the boil.

boo boo said:

Carapils need to be mashed so your best option would be to just add some malto dextrine.

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Yeah, carapils needs to be mashed. But that's not a problem if you are steeping grains anyway. You can add a pound of 2 row and .5 pound of carapils to your steeping grains and steep at 155. You'll get the benefit.

I'm not sure why you're having these problems. Could your glassware be a culprit? Any detergent or jet dry from the dishwasher left on a glass can kill the head of even the best beer. Just a thought.

Yooper Chick said:

Yeah, carapils needs to be mashed. But that's not a problem if you are steeping grains anyway. You can add a pound of 2 row and .5 pound of carapils to your steeping grains and steep at 155. You'll get the benefit.

I'm not sure why you're having these problems. Could your glassware be a culprit? Any detergent or jet dry from the dishwasher left on a glass can kill the head of even the best beer. Just a thought.

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I just used hot water with the faucet bottle cleaner then used the bottle rinser (pump action thing) with One-Step then hung them on the bottle tree to drip dry.

As far as mashing the carapils, would I steep normally at 155 F for 30 min, then with a second pot of water at 170 F, hang the grain bag and pour the hotter water over the grains and into the wort?? Would that be considered a mini-mash?

Also, when steeping and mashing... how precise do you need to be with your temps? Like steeping and temp drops to 145 F, is that critical or not?

Steeping and mashing are almost the same in a few ways. Yes, the grain bag thing with the sparge water over would do the trick for a small amount of grain. You could dunk the grain bag like a tea bag during this time.

A couple of differences- the temperature is crucial for mashing. No "about 150" or "under 170" while mashing. Still very easy- either do it in your brewpot and keep the temp between 150-155 or do what I did- I lined my bottling bucket with a big grain bad and "mashed" in that. I put a sleeping bag around it to help hold in the heat for 45 minutes. I put in 168 degree water to make it around 155, IIRC. I can double check my notes later if you want me to. Anyway, the temperature DID drop to 145 or so but it still worked out since most of the conversion happens sooner rather than later.

Another important thing about PM or mini-mash- in order to get the conversion, you must use a little base malt. This can be 2-row or maris otter, etc. I've used munich malt this way, too, and biscuit malt with 2-row and had sucessful PMs. That was a great way to introduce myself to AG brewing.

I hope I've answered some of your questions without dragging this too off topic! I can talk about brewing all day!

Edit- When I mentioned glassware, I didn't mean the bottles. I meant the glass that you're using to drink your brew. Sometimes people put them in the dishwasher or have soap residue on them that will kill the head.

Yooper Chick said:

Steeping and mashing are almost the same in a few ways. Yes, the grain bag thing with the sparge water over would do the trick for a small amount of grain. You could dunk the grain bag like a tea bag during this time.

A couple of differences- the temperature is crucial for mashing. No "about 150" or "under 170" while mashing. Still very easy- either do it in your brewpot and keep the temp between 150-155 or do what I did- I lined my bottling bucket with a big grain bad and "mashed" in that. I put a sleeping bag around it to help hold in the heat for 45 minutes. I put in 168 degree water to make it around 155, IIRC. I can double check my notes later if you want me to. Anyway, the temperature DID drop to 145 or so but it still worked out since most of the conversion happens sooner rather than later.

Another important thing about PM or mini-mash- in order to get the conversion, you must use a little base malt. This can be 2-row or maris otter, etc. I've used munich malt this way, too, and biscuit malt with 2-row and had sucessful PMs. That was a great way to introduce myself to AG brewing.

I hope I've answered some of your questions without dragging this too off topic! I can talk about brewing all day!

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I ordered the ingredients for a Fat Tire clone and it has munich and biscuit malts in it as well as carapils. I think I will pay more attention to trying this technique on that batch.

I was just looking at the EasyMasher... just install it in a large kettle and you're set... I could make something like that out of hardware from the local store. Only thing is I'd have to buy is a larger kettle (currently only have a 4 gallon) and of course the screen. The EasyMasher screens are only $5 plus shipping, but I'm wondering about trying to find something else that will work. You said a grain bag.... how about a jumbo steeping bag?

How large of a kettle do you need for mashing a 5 gallon batch from all grain?

simplecj I just put that same honey amber ale into my secondary. Ill let you know how mine turns out.

simplecj said:

I ordered the ingredients for a Fat Tire clone and it has munich and biscuit malts in it as well as carapils. I think I will pay more attention to trying this technique on that batch.

I was just looking at the EasyMasher... just install it in a large kettle and you're set... I could make something like that out of hardware from the local store. Only thing is I'd have to buy is a larger kettle (currently only have a 4 gallon) and of course the screen. The EasyMasher screens are only $5 plus shipping, but I'm wondering about trying to find something else that will work. You said a grain bag.... how about a jumbo steeping bag?

How large of a kettle do you need for mashing a 5 gallon batch from all grain?

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I don't know how big of a kettle you need, exactly. It would depend on how many pounds of grain you were using. For example, say my DFH clone. You'd use 13.5 pounds of grain, and water at 1.25 quarts per pound. So, that'd require something pretty big! I mean, it's over 13 pounds of grain and 4 gallons water to start! But, say you were doing a smaller beer, you might have 9 pounds of grains to deal with. (Most of my grain bills are 10-12 pounds for around 1.050-1.060). I know that lots of people use a 5 gallon igloo round cooler but I don't know if it's truly 5 gallons or not. Maybe start a new thread asking what size kettle others use- I have a feeling I've bored most of the others by now!

When I was doing PM, I lined that bottling bucket with a large grain bag that I got from the LHBS. I use it mostly for fruit wines, as it lines the whole bucket with some overhanging on the top and it stays put. I didn't have to tie the bag or anything like that.

I'm definitely not handy, so I bought my MLT from morebeer.com. The Easymasher looks ok, but I'm no expert. Take a look at some of the other setups people have- I think a stainless steel braid (like for plumbing) is very popular and works well.

I don't mean to sound like I'm pushing you to PM or AG if you're not ready. I'm just trying to let you know that it isn't all that difficult or complicated. The only "extra" equipment I bought to go AG is the MLT which cost me about $110. Again, you could DIY for much, much cheaper.

Thank you very much Yooper Chick!! I thought there was alot more to all grain, but it seems like something I can handle, especially when you consider the reduced cost per batch for ingredients and the improved quality of finished beer.

I won't jump into it now, but I will continue to mull the idea in my head. I'm an engineering student and a do-it-all kind of guy. I'm sure I can handle making my own mash tun. I like your idea of the round thermos! That would work great and I already have one available.

Thanks again, I'll post a more specific thread if I have more questions, you have been very helpful!

Cheers!