Partial Mash vs. BIAB

I'm going to do my first partial mash on Saturday. I've seen different ways of doing this. For some, I've seen people do a single infusion steep, drain, and proceed with the boil. Others I've seen treat it closer to BIAB by then sparging the bag after the infusion. What's the best method?

I guess this would then enter the question, "Outside of adding extract, is there really any difference between BIAB and a partial mash?"

BIAB is the method, all grain or partial mash is the recipe formulation. You can do BIAB partial mash and/or all grain just the same. Only difference is the capacity of what the bag is going into (mash capacity/capability).

Most partial mashes use specialty grains that are there for color or mouthfeel only, so they dont need a "mash" that creates fermentable sugars. This is why they can just be steeped while heating the boil kettle. Your sugars are in the extract.

You can choose to steep them in a boiling bag that lines the whole pot, or just a "sock" that you hang into the pot. The former is the bag that BIAB uses.

tre9er said:

Most partial mashes use specialty grains that are there for color or mouthfeel only, so they dont need a "mash" that creates fermentable sugars. This is why they can just be steeped while heating the boil kettle. Your sugars are in the extract.

You can choose to steep them in a boiling bag that lines the whole pot, or just a "sock" that you hang into the pot. The former is the bag that BIAB uses.

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Not at all true in that fist section. What you're talking about is an extract with specialty grains recipe NOT a partial mash recipe. A real partial mash recipe also includes base malt along with the flavor/specialty grains used. Also, a partial mash recipe needs to have the grains MASHED otherwise it's NOT a partial mash recipe/batch.

I really do wish that people would stop calling their extract with specialty grain recipe/batches partial mashes.

I agree with Golddiggie, most partial mashes DO include grains with diastic power needed to convert the sugars in a mash. Usually around half the sugar from grain, half from extract. Partial mash can be done either using tradtional mashing methods with a mash tun & false bottom or they can be done BIAB. Same 2 options for all grain where no extract is used.

I got into mashing with 4 batches of partial mash. BIAB is a perfect use for this and often only requires a bag to get started. A method of holding the grain above the boil kettle can be very helpful (I use a turkey fryer basket that is suspended from garage ceiling with rope and pulley). I've since switched to all grain BIAB and only use supplemental extract if it's a really big beer (bigger than 1.065 for my boil kettle).

As to how to mash/sparge with BIAB, I've done it two ways. I get higher efficiencies by batch sparging (~82%). Essentially lift your bag out of the boil kettle after the 60 mash and mash out are complete. Then dunk it in a smaller second vessel thats heated to 170. Spend 10 minutes there, lift/drain, pour sparge into kettle, and boil.

My second vessel is only 2 gallons, so this only works for grain bills of say 6 lbs and under. For all grain, I just lift the bag and pour 170 degree water over the bag (up to total boil volume). I get around 75% using this method. Most people do No Sparge where they just have a higher water to grist ratio, taking the 5-10% hit on efficiency. Solid 3rd option that I've often considered.

Make sure your grain is crushed fine enough. Your efficiency can change 10-20% based on crush. If you are sparging through a traditional bed, it can't be too fine or you risk stuck spartes. For BIAB, you can make it pretty fine. You may get some additional trub with a fine crush, but you will also have nice efficiencies.

Golddiggie said:

I really do wish that people would stop calling their extract with specialty grain recipe/batches partial mashes.

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Agreed.

So as I thought, there really IS no process difference between BAIB and partial mash.

solbes said:

As to how to mash/sparge with BIAB, I've done it two ways. I get higher efficiencies by batch sparging (~82%). Essentially lift your bag out of the boil kettle after the 60 mash and mash out are complete. Then dunk it in a smaller second vessel thats heated to 170. Spend 10 minutes there, lift/drain, pour sparge into kettle, and boil.

My second vessel is only 2 gallons, so this only works for grain bills of say 6 lbs and under. For all grain, I just lift the bag and pour 170 degree water over the bag (up to total boil volume). I get around 75% using this method. Most people do No Sparge where they just have a higher water to grist ratio, taking the 5-10% hit on efficiency. Solid 3rd option that I've often considered.

Make sure your grain is crushed fine enough. Your efficiency can change 10-20% based on crush. If you are sparging through a traditional bed, it can't be too fine or you risk stuck spartes. For BIAB, you can make it pretty fine. You may get some additional trub with a fine crush, but you will also have nice efficiencies.

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Thanks for the info. I'll have to see if my HBS can give me a finer crush. Is it safe to say that you still don't have any problems with the husk tannins bleeding out during the sparge with the finer crush?

edroberts said:

So as I thought, there really IS no process difference between BAIB and partial mash.

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I think it's just a difference in terminology. One is a method of sugar conversion in a mash. The other describes where the sugar comes from.

Mashing methods: traditional mash or BIAB
Brew methods: extract, extract with specialty grains, partial mash (half and half), or all grain

No problems with harsh tannins. Just that you could create more grain flour that can pass through the bag. This can lead to a thicker layer of trub in the fermenter. No issue with taste, just a thicker layer to avoid while racking. A finer mesh bag may help with this, and is something I may explore in the future.

Golddiggie said:

I really do wish that people would stop calling their extract with specialty grain recipe/batches partial mashes.

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very much agreed! it's far less confusing to just call a duck a duck.

edroberts said:

Thanks for the info. I'll have to see if my HBS can give me a finer crush. Is it safe to say that you still don't have any problems with the husk tannins bleeding out during the sparge with the finer crush?

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you should't have any issues with that. i have my mill set to crush fairly fine, and i use paint strainers for BIAB, do issues with anything other than liquid coming out of the bag.

Golddiggie said:

Not at all true in that fist section. What you're talking about is an extract with specialty grains recipe NOT a partial mash recipe. A real partial mash recipe also includes base malt along with the flavor/specialty grains used. Also, a partial mash recipe needs to have the grains MASHED otherwise it's NOT a partial mash recipe/batch.

I really do wish that people would stop calling their extract with specialty grain recipe/batches partial mashes.

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You're right, you're right...I was thinking one thing and ignored others.

tre9er said:

You're right, you're right...I was thinking one thing and ignored others.

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Safeties re-enabled...

BIAB is a budget friendly way to get into partial mash and all grain brewing. I did some batches that way before running into size limitations in the pots I was using. Changed to a mash tun and kettle configuration and haven't looked back since.

I do still use one of the large grain bags to catch grain particles that come out of the mash tun though. IMO better to catch them that way than hsve them in the boil.

I did BIAB last night and definitely need to hone my process more. That and stay away from mashing large quantities of flaked grains

I'm thinking of mashing in my cooler with the bag, thenk dunk sparging in the boil kettle. I only have the 30qt. kettle and my next largest pot is a measly 5qt.

tre9er said:

I did BIAB last night and definitely need to hone my process more. That and stay away from mashing large quantities of flaked grains

I'm thinking of mashing in my cooler with the bag, thenk dunk sparging in the boil kettle. I only have the 30qt. kettle and my next largest pot is a measly 5qt.

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You may see some benefit in doing a multi-rest infusion, letting the flaked grains rest at 50C for a half hour to handle the proteins before before doing your typical 150-155F rest with the these and the rest of your grains.

edroberts said:

You may see some benefit in doing a multi-rest infusion, letting the flaked grains rest at 50C for a half hour to handle the proteins before before doing your typical 150-155F rest with the these and the rest of your grains.

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Thanks, my neighbor, long-time homebrewer himself, also suggested this. He said a protein rest would help with the gelatinous nature of the flaked grains. I should have done that...I wasn't mashing any barley so I don't know why I treated the flaked wheat like 2-row and did single infusion mash.

tre9er said:

. That and stay away from mashing large quantities of flaked grains

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i know, right! they're quite the sticky mess in the strainer bag!

edroberts said:

You may see some benefit in doing a multi-rest infusion, letting the flaked grains rest at 50C for a half hour to handle the proteins before before doing your typical 150-155F rest with the these and the rest of your grains.

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ahhhhh, thanks for mentioning that ed! i did a rye beer with flaked rye and got the BIAB equivalent of a stuck sparge. not to hijack, but would you just do the protein rest for the flaked grains, adding the rest for the sacch rest or to a two step infusion with all the grains?

NordeastBrewer77 said:

i did a rye beer with flaked rye and got the BIAB equivalent of a stuck sparge.

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That's what happened to me. I had liquid in the bag that wouldn't come out. I ended up with hardly any gravity from 4.5lbs. of flaked wheat.

tre9er said:

That's what happened to me. I had liquid in the bag that wouldn't come out. I ended up with hardly any gravity from 4.5lbs. of flaked wheat.

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i ended up ok, 1 pt under my pre and post boil gravities. but it was a huge PITA. after trying to dunk sparge w/little luck, i ended up very very very slowly pouring the sparge water through the grain bag. i actually put the bag in a colander on top of the kettle, opened the bag and poured the water through slowly. it took a lot of extra time, but it worked. i guess next time it's a two step infusion when using flaked grains. makes perfect sense.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

i guess next time it's a two step infusion when using flaked grains. makes perfect sense.

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for me I think I'll use less flaked grain and more "actual" grains. I honestly had no idea I could get whole wheat or cracked wheat as opposed to flaked or torrified.

solbes said:

I agree with Golddiggie, most partial mashes DO include grains with diastic power needed to convert the sugars in a mash.

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I don't mean to be argumentative but I'd go as far to say "ALL" partial mashes include base malts in the mash step. The only thing that separates an All Grain batch from a Partial mash is that the latter requires a malt extract addition to the boil by design.

Bobby_M said:

I don't mean to be argumentative but I'd go as far to say "ALL" partial mashes include base malts in the mash step. The only thing that separates an All Grain batch from a Partial mash is that the latter requires a malt extract addition to the boil by design.

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Yeah agreed. Otherwise it's extract with steeping grains mislabeled as PM.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

ahhhhh, thanks for mentioning that ed! i did a rye beer with flaked rye and got the BIAB equivalent of a stuck sparge. not to hijack, but would you just do the protein rest for the flaked grains, adding the rest for the sacch rest or to a two step infusion with all the grains?

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I'd do all the grains. It certainly won't be bad for the rest. Plus, you'd almost have to calculate a second strike temperature in addition to the mash infusion to bring your mash temp up to the second rest.

edroberts said:

I'd do all the grains. It certainly won't be bad for the rest. Plus, you'd almost have to calculate a second strike temperature in addition to the mash infusion to bring your mash temp up to the second rest.

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that's what i was thinking too, it'd be a PITA to calculate temps for the sacch rest. thanks again for the heads up, bro.

tre9er said:

for me I think I'll use less flaked grain and more "actual" grains. I honestly had no idea I could get whole wheat or cracked wheat as opposed to flaked or torrified.

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i used 1.5 lbs of flaked rye in a 9.45 lb grain bill and it was still super sticky in the sparge. next time i use flaked grain, i'm going to give ed's suggestion a try. it sounds like it'll smooth everything out in the sparge, even if more of the grain bill consists of flaked malt.

Golddiggie said:

I really do wish that people would stop calling their extract with specialty grain recipe/batches partial mashes.

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I had a guy working at my LHBS tell me extract w/grains is the same as partial mash. I really want to support the local guy but he is a)too expensive compared with Midwest or Northern Brewer and b) when asked about how to do a partial mash he told be that extract w/grains was the same thing. I think from now on I'll look elsewhere for my supplies. It's not the same and I want good advice when I ask for it. IT seems his credibility went down with that comment...

BUCKEYE1303 said:

I had a guy working at my LHBS tell me extract w/grains is the same as partial mash. I really want to support the local guy but he is a)too expensive compared with Midwest or Northern Brewer and b) when asked about how to do a partial mash he told be that extract w/grains was the same thing. I think from now on I'll look elsewhere for my supplies. It's not the same and I want good advice when I ask for it. IT seems his credibility went down with that comment...

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Pretty sad when a customer knows more about the processes involved in brewing than the employees at a LHBS do.

Golddiggie said:

Pretty sad when a customer knows more about the processes involved in brewing than the employees at a LHBS do.

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To play devils advocate, I bet a 45 minute steep at 150 gets you in the same ballpark as a partial mash if the partial is just 10-20% of the grain bill