FDA C&D letters to Caffeine/Alcohol Drink Makers

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good. i'm glad all the caffeinated alcohol drinks are being punished.

i don't see coffee in beer being a concern though. caffeine has never been the marketing plan for any brewery using coffee to flavor a beer.
 
Better source of info:
http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodIngredientsPackaging/ucm190366.htm

From the FAQ:
Does this action apply to coffee-based liqueurs?

No. These Warning Letters are not directed at alcoholic beverages that only contain caffeine as a natural constituent of one or more of their ingredients, such as a coffee flavoring. The alcoholic beverages that are the subject of FDA's Warning Letters are malt beverages to which the manufacturer has directly added caffeine as a separate ingredient.
 
Moonshot is 4% ABW and has the 3/4 the caffeine of a cup of coffee. And lots of regs have overstepped the original intent. From what I am reading it is not about advertising it, it is about making and selling it. Just so long as selling makes it into the language, no worries.
 
therealrsr said:
Moonshot is 4% ABW and has the 3/4 the caffeine of a cup of coffee. And lots of regs have overstepped the original intent. From what I am reading it is not about advertising it, it is about making and selling it. Just so long as selling makes it into the language, no worries.
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The language clearly says you cannot directly add caffeine to an alcoholic beverage that is packaged and sold in combined form.

Moonshot and other gimmick drinks where caffeine is added directly as an ingredient - Illegal
Coffee stout or something where caffeine is in one of the flavors/ingredients (Coffee, chocolate, etc.) - Legal
Red Bull & Vodka mixed at the bar - Legal
 
I said it when the Red Bull drinks started becoming popular; alcohol (depressant) plus caffeine (stimulant) is what we used to call "speedballing" back in the day. That's what killed River Phoenix.
 
It is not immediately clear to me that the FDA actually has the authority to make this rule. I suspect there will be a lot of litigation on this issue and you never really know how the courts are going to rule. Of course, that side-steps the moral issue. People have a moral right to consume alcohol spiked with caffeine if they so choose. It is nothing short of pure evil for the FDA to step in and make people's decisions for them like this. A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is what we have today.
 
This whole story angers me.

People got aboard this FourLoko meme like it was the first time anyone ever mixed caffeine with alcohol, and then started calling for a government ban, which is always a bad idea. They got it. FourLoko got a ton of free press and immediately reformulated their beer to not have caffeine in it. They'll ride a wave of huge sales, especially now that they're the "banned" drink, and become even more attractive to the young people who were supposed to be protected.

Meanwhile, beers like Moonshot suffer the consequence. Nobody got helped by this, except the "villains" here, the makers of Four Loko.
 
munche said:
This whole story angers me.

People got aboard this FourLoko meme like it was the first time anyone ever mixed caffeine with alcohol, and then started calling for a government ban, which is always a bad idea. They got it. FourLoko got a ton of free press and immediately reformulated their beer to not have caffeine in it. They'll ride a wave of huge sales, especially now that they're the "banned" drink, and become even more attractive to the young people who were supposed to be protected.

Meanwhile, beers like Moonshot suffer the consequence. Nobody got helped by this, except the "villains" here, the makers of Four Loko.
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I wouldnt be surprised to see Fourloko get lost in the shuffle among our great malt liquors immediately following this ruling.

Although everyone will be flying to the stores to pick of the "last of the lokos"

I dont know one person who would want to drink that horsepiss without getting the caffeine buzz... Me, I'll take a goose and red bull all day.
 
kpr121 said:
I wouldnt be surprised to see Fourloko get lost in the shuffle among our great malt liquors immediately following this ruling.

Although everyone will be flying to the stores to pick of the "last of the lokos"

I dont know one person who would want to drink that horsepiss without getting the caffeine buzz... Me, I'll take a goose and red bull all day.
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I don't know anyone who'd drink it now, but apparently tons of people do. All this did was turn it into the "cool" drink.
 
This whole thing has angered me in ways beyond belief. I am a Libertarian, so i believe that this is an infringement of individual rights. Why should the government make these decisions for you. If you want to risk the side effects of speedballing, then go ahead and drink the stuff, otherwise don't and keep your nose out your neighbor's business if they do choose to do stuff like drink this.

This is nothing but post hippie generation bull crap!
 
Gotta agree with people saying this is ridiculous...

I'm all for government education programs in schools and in the media informing people (especially young and vulnerable) about the dangers of smoking, drinking, drugs, caffeine, fatty foods, etc. etc. etc. Ultimately though it has to be the consumer's decision otherwise a very slippery slope is created...

I wouldn't touch this stuff because I hate energy drinks alone and they are worse with alchohol that being said clearly their IS a market for these drinks. Also is this really going to change anything? You can still buy cheap vodka, you can still buy red bull, and you can still find a glass to mix it in... attacking a company for making a legal product that has a large demand is ridiculous this is throwing 4loko under the bus for political purposes.
 
veinman said:
also is this really going to change anything? You can still buy cheap vodka, you can still buy red bull, and you can still find a glass to mix it in... Attacking a company for making a legal product that has a large demand is ridiculous this is throwing 4loko under the bus for political purposes.
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+1
 
I have never liked the idea of intentionally adding caffeine to alcoholic beverages. You're simply asking for health problems.

As far as developing a decent 'coffee stout'? Use decaf... :)
 
If I were the For Loko folks, I'd cut the can volume into half. What good would that do you ask?

You go to the store and grab you a For with all the caffeine and none of the alcohol. It'd still have that nice watermelon flavor we've all learned to love. In the cooler a few doors down, you'd grab you a Loko with all that nice malty alcohol and that same watermelon flavor.

All you need now is a 22ounce cup! Bam For Loko, just like the good old days.



Yeah, stuff tastes like crap to me. Even tried a Joose once just to see what the hype was about. Just that. Hype. BUT, I'm 100% against the FDA having anyhting to say about it. I drank a 22 ounce twice and neither time did I die. It ain't the drink, it's the number of them.... Morons have been dieing at college campuses every year due to alcohol.
 
A 23.5oz can at 12% abv is like drinking a six pack of light beer that actually tastes good. Drink more than one, and a lot of people are going to get black out drunk, regardless of the cafffeine.
 
I honestly feel bad for Rhonda @ Moonshot. The impression I first got of her (courtesy of Beer Wars, of course) was of an overworked, under-appreciated entrepreneur that had been tossed under the bus more than a few times. Since I can't get Moonshot here in CA, I followed the successes & failures since then online, and this seems like it could shut the door on her completely, only due to a couple of idiotic college students that got loaded on an un-related, but similarly blended, alcoholic/caffeinated bevvie. Why persecute the product when it's the students' fault for going overboard on the stuff in the first place? Where the fack is the accountability in this case?
 
Moonshot seems like too much work to sell a gimmick, it never seemed to be about the beer itself, or how it tastes, or even what kind of beer it was, where it was made, who made it. It was just about Hey! Beer! WITH CAFFEINE! Generally I don't like seeing the little guy trampled but Moonshot seemed like a gimmick.
 
We all know this came about because of some smug self-righteous DA, MD, or school president. Then he got enough lemmings to say "yeah! he's right!" and it made national news a few weeks ago. Now conveniently there's a "findings" released from the FDA very shortly after some people were demanding a ban in their respective states.

If some kids are too stupid to realize that a 24oz can of 12%abv hooch will knock them over because it tastes like carbonated koolaid then I guess they don't get to procreate.

Everything our govt does is suspicious!

I'm still waiting for the govt to ban personally owned vehicles because of how many deaths there annually in cars, on motocycles/atvs/snow machines, and in boats. I think they might out number "smoking related" deaths and no one can smoke anywhere anymore so no one should be able to drive. Public transportation for all, plus it's green!

PS I bet if you're 97 and die of lung cancer and have smoked at some point your life they add that to the smoking related statistics. Never mind the fact you were 97 and probably died because you were fricken old! I suspect the stats would be much lower if they defined and only counted "premature" deaths linked to health complications from smoking.
 
JetSmooth said:
I said it when the Red Bull drinks started becoming popular; alcohol (depressant) plus caffeine (stimulant) is what we used to call "speedballing" back in the day. That's what killed River Phoenix.
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Uh no, it was any number of illegal drugs that did River in:

According to Wikipedia:

"his autopsy report revealed lethal doses of cocaine, morphine (heroin metabolizes to morphine and shows up as such in the blood), diazepam, and ephedrine.[23]"
 
Man this would be the dumbest ban I've heard of in a long time. What a waste of time and tax payers money. Idiots who can't control themselves with alchohol killed themselves before fourloko and they'll keep killing themselves after fourloko is gone. The drink may taste like crap, so I'm not exactly fighting for it, but people who like mixing caffeine and alchohol will just start mixing drinks with red bull more again....as a matter of fact think the red bull company is the one lobbying for it behind the scenes? It'd probably help them get back some of the market since there's so many different energy drinks out there. In fact, because of the plethora of energy drinks and hard liquor out there, there is countless combinations most of which are going to be way worse for people than the ones that come premixed in the can. What a joke. I mean isn't there more useful things for politicians to do than randomly picking out crap to ban that won't solve a damn thing?
 
To be fair to the FDA, that product and similar products are heavily consumed by underage drinkers. Flashy colorful packaging, looks similar to non-alcoholic energy drinks and fruit flavors...it has all the hallmarks of a product marketed to young (under 21) drinkers. That alone triggers some serious regulatory effect.

Moreover, science has long suggested that combining alcohol and caffeine has the effect of feeling fewer effects of alcohol, so you effectively drink more. While I enjoy red bull and vodka myself, there's a health risk in putting a lot of alcohol and a lot of caffeine in the same product.

While you may disagree with the FDA taking that step, it is clearly within their power to regulate the marketing and health concerns of food products on the market.
 
combining stimulants and depressants and marketing them to young people is irresponsible at best. Since these companies weren't smart enough to regulate themselves the government had to step in. I'm no fan of big government but if the FDA wants to get rid of crap like four loko then I can get behind that.
 
I hate to say but maybe its not the drinks but the people drinking.... :drunk:

Such as this>
"one of the students said he'd had three tins of this beverage Four Loko and several shots of tequila all in the space of an hour,"

When I lived in Daytona every springbreak we would bet on how many kids would fall & die while climbing balconies.

Balconies don't kill people, dumbazzed drunk spring break kids climbing on balconies kill people. Ban the Balconies! :mug:

Samething here dumbazzed,stupid people and now its BAN the drinks...

Whatever happened to taking responsibity for your actions?

JetSmooth said:
alcohol (depressant) plus caffeine (stimulant) is what we used to call "speedballing" back in the day. That's what killed River Phoenix.
Click to expand...

broadbill said:
Uh no, it was any number of illegal drugs that did River in:

According to Wikipedia:

"his autopsy report revealed lethal doses of cocaine, morphine (heroin metabolizes to morphine and shows up as such in the blood), diazepam, and ephedrine.[23]"
Click to expand...


Thank you as I was just about to correct him, kinda like this>

JetSmooth said:
alcohol (depressant) plus caffeine (stimulant) is what we used to call "speedballing" back in the day.
Click to expand...

You must be really young because SpeedBalling is>
Mixing either heroin and cocaine or heroin and crack cocaine

That is what kill John Belushi.


Atvar said:
A 23.5oz can at 12% abv is like drinking a six pack of light beer that actually tastes good.
Click to expand...


Just like drinking a Rochefort 10 or maybe a couple more before really hitting the beerlist:drunk: My HB barleywine is 12.6%abv says promash.


jiggs_casey said:
I have never liked the idea of intentionally adding caffeine to alcoholic beverages. You're simply asking for health problems.
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Such as? when I go out clubbing its redline & vodka all night long, been doing this for years. 44yrs old and doing just fine, have the blood-stress tests to prove it:ban:

Redbull is for sissies:cross:
 
Houblon said:
You must be really young because SpeedBalling is>
Mixing either heroin and cocaine or heroin and crack cocaine

That is what kill John Belushi.
Click to expand...

Well, duh. I was sort of being facetious. ;) It's the same concept, though. Just not as hardcore.
 
TheCarnie said:
This whole thing has angered me in ways beyond belief. I am a Libertarian, so i believe that this is an infringement of individual rights. Why should the government make these decisions for you. If you want to risk the side effects of speedballing, then go ahead and drink the stuff, otherwise don't and keep your nose out your neighbor's business if they do choose to do stuff like drink this.

This is nothing but post hippie generation bull crap!
Click to expand...

I agree, this is utterly ridiculous.
 
TheCarnie said:
This whole thing has angered me in ways beyond belief. I am a Libertarian, so i believe that this is an infringement of individual rights. Why should the government make these decisions for you. If you want to risk the side effects of speedballing, then go ahead and drink the stuff, otherwise don't and keep your nose out your neighbor's business if they do choose to do stuff like drink this.

This is nothing but post hippie generation bull crap!
Click to expand...

I can agree that if you want to sit at home/party/etc. and drink whatever you want, more power to you. The problem is when people move the party into a public location where other people are put at risk. This last weekend two 14 year olds were drinking that Four Loko, got into a car, drove on the freeway on the wrong way and drove into a guard rail. The passenger was killed. Although you can point to the kids, the parents, etc. as responsible parties, if they had hit another car and killed somebody it wouldn't have been the victim's fault but the victim would still be dead.

That is why the government regulates products like those that obviously target underage/young drinkers with a product that clearly increases the danger of drinking.

Is it really anybody's preference to have the government intrude and regulate?? No. It is expensive and intrusive; however, until people are willing to self-regulate themselves and businesses start being a little more responsible with the products they produce, somebody needs to protect me from idiot 14 year olds with idiot parents drinking idiot products.
 
I don't feel that the government needs to get involved in this situation, they can't seem to do anything right anyway, how would this situation be any different than the countless others that they have been way off-base or overreaching on?

These idiots will just find other ways to remove their dumb-asses from the gene pool, as long as I can avoid them I'm fine with that. Stupid people breed, have stupid kids, who make even more stupid kids, at some point natural selection steps in and thins the herd.
 
The FDA is banning these products because a strong, vocal minority is demanding it. It's a move that's opposed by many people, but those people don't speak up. If you haven't contacted the FDA with your concerns, you really can't complain about their decisions.

The FDA is responding to its perceived will of the people, which is what we want from our government.

I'm always amazed by how little credit is given to the government. As far as I'm concerned, the USA is a pretty good place to live.
 
JetSmooth said:
Well, duh. I was sort of being facetious. ;)
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Glad to hear:mug:

knotquiteawake said:
balconies don't kill people but that doesn't mean that they can't require you to put railing on it.
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Yes but the city made all the hotels put locks on all windows/balconies to keep stupid people from climbing over the railings.

So in fact they did ban the balconies during springbreak.


terrencepickles said:
The FDA is banning these products because a strong, vocal minority is demanding it. It's a move that's opposed by many people, but those people don't speak up. If you haven't contacted the FDA with your concerns, you really can't complain about their decisions.
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No the local politicians & DA were behind the push to ban, seeing a notch on their records- "see I got such n such banned to protect the Children & Families from the evil menace".



azscoob said:
Stupid people breed, have stupid kids, who make even more stupid kids, at some point natural selection steps in and thins the herd.
Click to expand...


Cheers!
I've been saying that since Jerry Springer first hit the airwaves:mad:
 
Houblon said:
I hate to say but maybe its not the drinks but the people drinking.... :drunk:

Such as this>
"one of the students said he'd had three tins of this beverage Four Loko and several shots of tequila all in the space of an hour,"

Whatever happened to taking responsibity for your actions?
Click to expand...

This +1000.. The government shouldnt be trying to ban a drink because people are being irresponsible about drinking it.
 
terrencepickles said:
The FDA is banning these products because a strong, vocal minority is demanding it. It's a move that's opposed by many people, but those people don't speak up. If you haven't contacted the FDA with your concerns, you really can't complain about their decisions.

The FDA is responding to its perceived will of the people, which is what we want from our government.

I'm always amazed by how little credit is given to the government. As far as I'm concerned, the USA is a pretty good place to live.
Click to expand...

I don't contact the FDA about their decisions because I refuse to recognize the morality of their authority. It doesn't matter whether a product is harmful or not, they have no moral right to ban it. Whether I drink four loko is no concern of their's, it is my concern and mine alone. Just like a drug, medical device, vaccine or anything else: it is my concern alone. In the absence of force or fraud the government has no moral right to get involved. So no, I won't contact them and argue about whether they should or shouldn't ban a particular product, because they have no moral right to ban ANY product.

With regards to what someone said about underage drinkers: do you think the government can save the world? We were all kids once, and when I was a kid I drank way more in a week than I currently drink in an entire year. I never got behind the wheel of a car. If you think you're going to ban four loko and thereby prevent people from driving drunk I've got some beach front real estate in North Dakota that I can sell you.

Who is John Galt?
 
Government intrusion takes another step on the back of American Liberty.

It is not the government's job to tell us what's safe.

It is not the government's job to protect you from anything.

It is not the government's job to regulate marketing, packaging, or sales of anything.

Here's a novel idea; if you don't think this swill is safe, DON'T DRINK IT.

We are in this situation because men have found it more comforting and docile to live under the yolk in exchange for a reprieve from the tedious fight that it takes to maintain liberty. This is but one small example of a body that rides on your tax dollars and has nothing better to do than cater to the lowest common denominator; banning A BEVERAGE so that YOU can be safer.

RIP, Freedom. We hardly knew ye.
 
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