yikes... another ss braid problem

got to test out the new setup this afternoon... my ss braid didn't do well in draining from the cooler. below you will find some pictures of the braid 'after' i was done. the braid has pvc in it with holes cut (you can see the indentations). the grain i used was crushed, but not too finely, still had some body to it.

mash temp was 152 and sparge temp was 175. 9 pounds of total grain for the recipe. it took me forever to get my 6.25 gallons out, ended up with an efficiency of 69%... any ideas what might be causing the problem with the braid?

you have to remove the interior pipe and just use the braided sleeve as a screen.

Did you actually have a stuck sparge? Did you use tubing on the outside of the tun, u need to create that siphon action.

mw20 said:

you have to remove the interior pipe and just use the braided sleeve as a screen.

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seems there are split camps on that subject... some say tube, others no tube. i was under the impression that the tube would have with the braid collapsing.

jesserc said:

Did you actually have a stuck sparge? Did you use tubing on the outside of the tun, u need to create that siphon action.

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that could have been it... yes i had tubing on the outside running downhill to a brew pot.

there was no liquid coming out after the mash unless i was stirring.

Looking at your picture again I can see you do have pretty big holes cut in the interior pipe so it should work. I've been using mine withe the braid only and have had no problems with sparging.

Was this a wheat beer?

Are you sure that's a SS braid?

williec30 said:

seems there are split camps on that subject... some say tube, others no tube. i was under the impression that the tube would have with the braid collapsing.

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Not really. I can't see the pics at work, so I can't tell EXACTLY what you've done, but if you're just drilling holes you're pretty much defeating the whole purpose. You want the full length of the braid to act as a filter, you don't want just a couple holes for the wort to flow through; you'll restrict the flow too much. The braid is fine without the tube, it's not going to collapse. It may not last forever if you beat it up stirring your mash, but it's strong enough to not collapse on you.

jesserc said:

Was this a wheat beer?

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no, it is cream of the three crops.

Kilted Brewer said:

Are you sure that's a SS braid?

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yes... i can take a picture of the (lowes) label saying stainless steel if that helps.

the_bird said:

Not really. I can't see the pics at work, so I can't tell EXACTLY what you've done, but if you're just drilling holes you're pretty much defeating the whole purpose. You want the full length of the braid to act as a filter, you don't want just a couple holes for the wort to flow through; you'll restrict the flow too much. The braid is fine without the tube, it's not going to collapse. It may not last forever if you beat it up stirring your mash, but it's strong enough to not collapse on you.

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i cut V's on both sides of the tube as explained in a few other threads (didn't use drill holes).

No need for a picture of the label. I just know it's real easy to think you're grabbing a ss hose and end up with a synthetic house that looks like SS....

I'm leaning towards taking the tube out, for reasons bird mentions above.

Kilted Brewer said:

No need for a picture of the label. I just know it's real easy to think you're grabbing a ss hose and end up with a synthetic house that looks like SS....

I'm leaning towards taking the tube out, for reasons bird mentions above.

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no worries... i made sure to get the stainless after reading through the myriad of threads.

i will give the no-tube a shot next time around.

That looks to me like it's melted...I'm wondering if it's NOT one of those plastic ones that some people have warned about...they look and feel like the SS mesh...but not...it looks like some plastics do when they shrink from the heat....

If not, if it is SS and collapsed (which I can't see happenning with the recipe you are brewing) them maybe you do need to use a reinforcement hose inside the braid...I've had no trouble with mine whatsoever. I just took the original hose out, and drilled a bunch of holes so it looked like a machine gun barrel, I boiled it for about 15 minutes to loosen all the nylon shreds that came from the drilling of it...then slipped it back inside the braid (it was a pita btw) and hooked it into the system.

Mine works beautifully.

Revvy said:

That looks to me like it's melted...I'm wondering if it's NOT one of those plastic ones that some people have warned about...they look and feel like the SS mesh...but not...it looks like some plastics do when they shrink from the heat....

If not, if it is SS and collapsed (which I can't see happenning with the recipe you are brewing) them maybe you do need to use a reinforcement hose inside the braid...I've had no trouble with mine whatsoever. I just took the original hose out, and drilled a bunch of holes so it looked like a machine gun barrel, I boiled it for about 15 minutes to loosen all the nylon shreds that came from the drilling of it...then slipped it back inside the braid (it was a pita btw) and hooked it into the system.

Mine works beautifully.

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this is exactly what i did revvy, took the pvc tube that was in the ss braid, cut V's in the tubing and pushed it back in the braid. after i got it put back together, i pulled it a little too tight and hence the melted look... the tube is in there solid.

here is a pic of the label from the braid...

I think you answerd your own question...the mesh is too tight and is probably not letting the liquid flow through to the holes in the hose...those braids are like those chinese finger torture thingys.



If you pull apart or outwards the mesh tigtens, if you push it together the mesh expands..therefore there are more gaps in the mesh...I remember when I did mine, I had to keep pushing the ends towards each other to loosen the mesh enough to get the braid back it..

Wikipedia
The tightening is simply a normal behaviour of a cylindrical braid, usually the common biaxial braid. Pulling the braid lengthens and narrows it. The length is gained by reducing the angle between the warp and weft threads at their crossing points, but this reduces the distance between them and hence the circumference. The more one pulls the more the circumference shrinks (i.e. the trap tightens). The same effect is used in specialized textile manufacturing, and by fly-fishers [1].

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Try that, pushing and pulling, but mostly pushing the ends towars each other and see if you can loosen it...you may have to take the braid out and putting it back in and pushing the ends towards each other constantly to make sure the mesh weave is looser.

Also you did have a hose attached to your spigot, right? If not you won't get a good siphon action that will help draw the water out...someone had a problem with their bottling bucket dip tube, then went to hook up a hose and it worked fine....

That's the strangest looking SS braid I have ever seen. It shouldn't look all distorted like that. My first impression was also that you got a plastic look-alike, and not a stainless braid. In fact, I am still wondering this, despite seeing the packaging. Those are DEFINITELY stainless steel threads making up the braid right? Somebody didn't switch the packaging on you?

Oh, also -- I don't know where this idea came from (hope it wasn't me!) but the tubing will not reinforce the braid. I used it in my mash tun because I couldn't find any all-stainless hose clamps to attach my braid to the barb on the bulkhead. You also have to be REALLY certain that if you use tubing like I did, that it is HIGH TEMP tubing and that it is STIFF. Otherwise, it will get pliable in the hot mash and collapse on itself, creating a blockage (although it doesn't sound like you had that problem here).

I say the problem is a lousy braid. Try to find a different type/brand if you can.

Maybe given all the recent failures we are seeing, Watt has changed their manufacturing process for these hoses?

I use a water heater braid. No collapsing, stuck sparges, or problems. Its about 5/8" diameter and fairly stout stuff.

Yeah, without futzing around with any tubing inside, I've never had a problem with a collapse or a stuck sparge or anything with just the plain, REAL SS braid. The only issue I've had was that my first one got dinged up a bit from my metal spoon, when I was stirring the mash too much and not being at all careful with it - but it still works fine, it's just got a couple dents in it. Don't make things more complicated than they need to be.

Yank that pvc out of your SS braid and you'll be draining so fast you won't be able to take a sip on that HB!

This is my SS braid just after removing the grains from a 5gal AG batch. I think it was a stout with 13 lbs grain.

There is nothing inside my braid. Now, sometimes it floats up during the mash, but I can easily push it back down prior to vorlauf and it stays there.

I did make one modification to my braid. At the loose end, I have a brass endcap piece held in place with a SS clamp. This weighs it down enough where it doesn't float on me anymore. This also keeps it out more out of the way when I stir the mash.

TeufelBrew said:

Yank that pvc out of your SS braid and you'll be draining so fast you won't be able to take a sip on that HB!

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While I agree that the tubing isn't necessary, I don't think it is his problem. If you look at his first photo, you can see that his braid is clearly deforming/collapsing while the tubing is holding its shape.



Now look at yours. See how well it holds its shape (the sharp bends excepted). A good braid should look like yours or Bird's, not his. I bet that's the root of his problem.

s3n8 said:

I use a water heater braid. No collapsing, stuck sparges, or problems. Its about 5/8" diameter and fairly stout stuff.

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lowes/home depot item?

Revvy said:

Also you did have a hose attached to your spigot, right? If not you won't get a good siphon action that will help draw the water out...someone had a problem with their bottling bucket dip tube, then went to hook up a hose and it worked fine....

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this might have been my problem. i noticed when i took it apart to clean the the rubber came off the barb... not sure when it happened.

thanks for all the ideas guys... i am going to have another go at this in a while, i am sure it will work with some of these mistakes corrected

williec30 said:

i noticed when i took it apart to clean the the rubber came off the barb... not sure when it happened.

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Yep, there's your problem. I stand corrected.

Regardless, don't use rubber tubing. Throw it in the garbage, and try without the hose. Just be sure that the braid you have is going to stand up to the weight of the mash. If you can collapse it by gently putting pressure on it with your hand, you will still be in trouble on the next batch.

williec30 said:

lowes/home depot item?

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That's where I got mine.

They are much bigger diameter than the toilet/sink supply lines, and come with some high temp silicone hose inside as a little bonus. The inner high temp tube fits on my 1/2" barb fittings.

Hi, I just stumbled onto this thread while setting up my own Stainless steel braid setup.

Just FYI, the problem with the plastic on that connector is that it is only made for low temperature applications.

Unfortunately, that kind of info doesn't appear to be easy to find on the package itself, but on the lowes website, you can see that the LBLK SP20-88CP is only rated to 72 degrees Fahrenheit.

Other hoses from lowes, which appear to be about the same price are rated up to 150 F; these hoses are probably the ones that people have been working with when they had better luck using the notched plastic inner hose to provide structure.