Temperature for Hefeweizen from pitch to bottle?

So I made my first ten 5-gal batches of homebrew, all Hefeweizen, with no more research than the instruction/advice and one page recipe they gave me at my local brew store. All done pretty much identical, with Safbrew WB-06. I was just thrilled enough to have all the Weizen I wanted that tasted like what I discovered in Germany and can only find at home as expensive singles. Didn't know any of the why, just the how.

Last visit to the store the owner said "you've been doing this a while, why not try liquid yeasts, and do a secondary". Sounded good, learn something new, they'd steered me well so far, why not.

So now I'm adding a one week secondary, and have tried Wyeast 3068, 3638, and 3333. All of which list a temp range of 64 to 75 F. So far I've never made any effort to keep any of it at any specific temp at any stage since it's always 68 to 70 in the house, thus I know it's within the range.

So I just got curious if it's worth being more specific with my temps in primary, secondary, and post-bottled? If each stage should have a different temp? Or if it'll make much if any difference? I'd be fascinated to hear any wisdom and advice on this, as any will be more than I know now!

Thanks all!!!

Weizenmeister said:

So I made my first 10 batches of homebrew, all Hefeweizen, with no more research than the instruction and one page recipe they gave me at my local brew store. All done pretty much identical, with Safbrew WB-06. I was just thrilled enough to have all the Weizen I wanted that tasted just like what I discovered in Germany. Didn't know any of the why, just the how.

Last visit to the store the owner said "you've been doing this a while, why not try liquid yeasts, and do a secondary". Sounded good, learn something new, they'd steered me well so far, why not.

So now I'm adding a one week secondary, and have tried Wyeast 3068, 3638, and 3333. All of which list a temp range of 64 to 75 F. So far I've never made any effort to keep any of it at any specific temp at any stage since it's always 68 to 70 in the house, thus I know it's in the range.

So I just got curious if it's worth being more specific with my temps in primary, secondary, and post-bottled? If each stage should have a different temp? Or if it'll make much if any difference? I'd be fascinated to hear any wisdom and advice on this, as any will be more than I know now!

Thanks all!!!

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With a hefeweizen you can alter the flavor with temps quite a bit. A cooler temperature will give you a cleaner more clove-like phenolic flavor, while a warmer temp will give you more banana flavors.

A secondary is also totally unnecessary for a hefe (and most beers actually). You don't want to age them or settle out any yeast, drink them young and tender!

I do prefer liquid yeasts, but if you're going to switch, I would recommend learning how to make a yeast starter. There's several good threads on this forum for doing that.

I do like the banana so perhaps warmer.

I thought perhaps ideal temp may vary for aerobic vs anaerobic? Primary vs bottled? Perhaps not?

It seems most don't secondary Weizens, though I like to to reduce yeast fallout just a bit, even after secondary it's still cloudy with a sediment layer, just a bit less thick one. One suggested longer primary instead of secondary. Guess some trial and error is in order.

i like WLP300 fermented at 20C and no secondary. lovely beer that has done well for me in competitions (2 first places and 1 second)

I have had success including multiple gold medals using 3068 and fermenting at 62-64. The key to getting a good balance is not over pitching. The 62-64 fermenting temp will give you a very clean phenols while a proper pitch rate at that temp will slightly stress the yeast giving you clean esters. No need to ferment high to get the bananna, it can be derived by yeast stress alone. And having tried higher temps, the banana/clove is much fresher and crisper at the lower temps.

brewshki said:

i like WLP300 fermented at 20C and no secondary. lovely beer that has done well for me in competitions (2 first places and 1 second)

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I'll have to try that one.

Rcbandl said:

I have had success including multiple gold medals using 3068 and fermenting at 62-64. The key to getting a good balance is not over pitching. The 62-64 fermenting temp will give you a very clean phenols while a proper pitch rate at that temp will slightly stress the yeast giving you clean esters. No need to ferment high to get the bananna, it can be derived by yeast stress alone. And having tried higher temps, the banana/clove is much fresher and crisper at the lower temps.

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Very interesting. So many variables. Pitch rate I've not even experimented with yet, I just use the entire Wyeast pouch for 5 gal....

Rcbandl said:

I have had success including multiple gold medals using 3068 and fermenting at 62-64. The key to getting a good balance is not over pitching. The 62-64 fermenting temp will give you a very clean phenols while a proper pitch rate at that temp will slightly stress the yeast giving you clean esters. No need to ferment high to get the bananna, it can be derived by yeast stress alone. And having tried higher temps, the banana/clove is much fresher and crisper at the lower temps.

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This is pretty much exactly what I would have suggested as well.

Rcbandl said:

I have had success including multiple gold medals using 3068 and fermenting at 62-64. The key to getting a good balance is not over pitching. The 62-64 fermenting temp will give you a very clean phenols while a proper pitch rate at that temp will slightly stress the yeast giving you clean esters. No need to ferment high to get the bananna, it can be derived by yeast stress alone. And having tried higher temps, the banana/clove is much fresher and crisper at the lower temps.

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I'm not sure pitch rate and temperate stress are related.

I'm sure you're doing something better than me, as i have no gold medals, but from my understanding the only way pitch rate can stress yeast is if you under pitch and they are required to multiply too much to reach saturation in the beer. That will lead to depleted glycogen reserves and thinner cell walls.

If you are at the correct pitch rate, or even a good bit over, the only thing that should be stressing the yeast is temperature.

So I would be more inclined to think that you're underpitching to produce esters and the cool fermentation temp reduces the other flavor compounds associated with warm temps.

Weizenmeister said:

I do like the banana so perhaps warmer.

I thought perhaps ideal temp may vary for aerobic vs anaerobic? Primary vs bottled? Perhaps not?

It seems most don't secondary Weizens, though I like to to reduce yeast fallout just a bit, even after secondary it's still cloudy with a sediment layer, just a bit less thick one. One suggested longer primary instead of secondary. Guess some trial and error is in order.

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You want the same temp throughout primary (both aerobic and anaerobic). Temperature fluctuations tend to make off flavors in my experience.

Longer primary will reduce the yeast in suspension, but weizen should be cloudy so I've never worried about it.

One thing I've discovered is that I add a little acid malt (4oz) to the end of my mash to slightly drop the pH and this results in a nice hint of lemon flavor in the finished beer.

Pitch rate is supposed to have a really big effect. I have only ever Brewed a hefe using one vial from white labs. This time around (I Brewed Tuesday) I made a 1.6 liter starter with no stir plate. Beersmith told me I still doubled the amount of cells I pitched but was under the target number of cells it thought I should have for my gravity. From what I understand, this, along with oxygenating with pure O2, should stress my yeast out less and produce "cleaner" flavors even if my temp is high. Reducing the temp would reduce the stress as well. This is all theoretical for me though because I haven't done it. I do know that my precious batches were banana bombs.

Temp control and pitch rate are important for all styles of beer. Remember that this style is largely driven by the yeast. This makes these factors even more important here. I'm not saying under or over pitch or hot or cold temps are better either way. Just different.

brewshki said:

i like WLP300 fermented at 20C and no secondary. lovely beer that has done well for me in competitions (2 first places and 1 second)

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I just fermented WLP300 at that same temperature and I detect very little banana

I've used wb-06 for multiple batches and pitch yeast at 60ish F for first 3 days, then i let it free rise to 70 F for the rest of ferm. I cold crash in primary for 3 days then bottle and store at room temp for a week, or until i think it reaches full carbonation, then it is stored in the fridge. I get a balanced clove and banana flavor with a hint of lemon.

Weizenmeister, im curious if you pitch a whole packet of wb-06?

MajorDutch said:

I've used wb-06 for multiple batches and pitch yeast at 60ish F for first 3 days, then i let it free rise to 70 F for the rest of ferm. I cold crash in primary for 3 days then bottle and store at room temp for a week, or until i think it reaches full carbonation, then it is stored in the fridge. I get a balanced clove and banana flavor with a hint of lemon.

Weizenmeister, im curious if you pitch a whole packet of wb-06?

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Hey MD, I did use the entire packet of wb-06 for all those batches, I also briefly hydrated it in a cup of sterile room temp water(per instructions) as opposed to directly pitching with dry powder should that be relevant.

So cold-crash is cooling it just before bottling?(sorry, I'm new to all terminology). Thanks!

There is a great two-part podcast on Basic Brewing where a guy did some hefe tests. His findings were to ferment in the mid-low 60's and pitch about a half of a vial of White labs. Fermenting higher just created off flavors.

This is one of those beers where you can over think it. Simple is better and just do the above two steps, extract or all-grain and you are set.

I used to use all Weyermann malts but have found using domestic wheat has yielded better beers with more wheat flavor. I also like to do the acid rest (104f) for clove but I do not know how much this adds or does not add.

Weizenmeister said:

So cold-crash is cooling it just before bottling?(sorry, I'm new to all terminology). Thanks!

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yep, ive got a chest freezer and aim for about 38F

Bassman2003 said:

There is a great two-part podcast on Basic Brewing where a guy did some hefe tests. His findings were to ferment in the mid-low 60's and pitch about a half of a vial of White labs. Fermenting higher just created off flavors.

This is one of those beers where you can over think it. Simple is better and just do the above two steps, extract or all-grain and you are set.

I used to use all Weyermann malts but have found using domestic wheat has yielded better beers with more wheat flavor. I also like to do the acid rest (104f) for clove but I do not know how much this adds or does not add.

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So he recommends drastically underpitching? Which yeast strain was this experiment done with, and what was the OG of the beers?

It makes sense that you'll get a strong ester profile from underpitching, but that seems like you could also end up with an underattenuated mess, plus there's too many other factors in play for that to work 100% of the them.

WLP300 = Wyeast 3068, just FYI

And temperature plays a role in the banana vs clove profile but so does the grain bill and mash. A ferulic acid rest before your sacch rest is supposed ot create more compounds which hefe yeasts turn into those typical hefe esters

an ambient temp of 68-70 is going to be too high for most yeasts. If the room is at 68, the actively fermenting wort could be approaching the mid 70s. That is just asking for hot fusel off flavors

you do not need to secondary or cold crash a hefeweizen. They are traditionally couldy anyway. Just make sure it reaches FG then go ahead and bottle

TheMadKing said:

So he recommends drastically underpitching? Which yeast strain was this experiment done with, and what was the OG of the beers?

It makes sense that you'll get a strong ester profile from underpitching, but that seems like you could also end up with an underattenuated mess, plus there's too many other factors in play for that to work 100% of the them.

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You should listen to the podcasts. He did a some comparisons between different pitch rates then different fermentation temps.

He found as he progressed as an all-grain brewer, his hefes were becoming boring. (I found the same thing). He had a starter routine for all of his beers which for most beers created more yeast which was better.

He did not recommend anything, it is just that taste wise, the 1/2 vial of WLP 300 had the best banana/clove mix. The results showed banana as the main flavor component improved by pitching less yeast. More yeast=less banana. I found this as well.

Obviously tastes may vary. The next hefe I make will be with a small starter using 1/2 of a vial of WLP300.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/search.cfm?searchterm=banana&search-submit=GO

I haven't gone the route of a half a package per batch, BUT, according to the Wyeast folks, it's not that far fetched. According to the link above, 3-6 million cells/ml is what you want for the right hefe character. If I'm doing my math right, is about 1 package without a starter, depending on the age of the package. That's what I do for my hefeweizens. 1 package, no starter, 63F.