Maris Otter, Golden Promise - Long Mash Time?

Do people who use Maris Otter and/or Golden Promise mash for more than 60 minutes?

I'm wondering if they should mash longer since they have relatively low diastatic power (~60 degrees Lintner).

I mash 60 min recirc, lauter. It has enought diastatic power for itself.

I do a single mash infusion.

I know they have enough DP to convert themselves, but what about when you're brewing a recipe with 20% or 30% specialty grains.

aggieactuary said:

I do a single mash infusion.

I know they have enough DP to convert themselves, but what about when you're brewing a recipe with 20% or 30% specialty grains.

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30% specialty grains is a lot, at least to me. I'd feel like adding some 6-row if 1/3 of my grain bill was adjuncts/specialty grains. What is the recipe?

I've mashed MO for much shorter times- like 40 minutes or so, and still had complete conversion. But I"ve never used MO with a ton of adjuncts or specialty grains. I think the recipe would be important here, to ensure enough DP.

If your talking about crystal malts, toasted and roasted malts then most of these don't need converted. Just steeping, so the diastatic power means nothing to these grains. If your talking about 30% oats then yes, you may have a problem.

Yeah I guess 30% is too high.

I don't have a specific recipe. It's just a general question.

aggieactuary said:

Yeah I guess 30% is too high.

I don't have a specific recipe. It's just a general question.

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As a general answer, MO and GP convert just as quickly as any other base malts. Temperature plays a bigger role in conversion time, just as with other base malts. For a 158 degree mash, conversion can happen very quickly, while at 147, it might take 90 minutes. But that's true of any base malt.

I heard that mash temperature matters a lot less than it used to.

I remember hearing Bob Hansen of Briess say that recently. He said that brewers don't get much variation from mashing at different temps anymore. I believe he attributed it to higher diastatic powers if modern malts.

Now, if 60 minutes is overkill for a typical modern malt mash (with 2 row 120-150 degrees Lintner). Then, maybe we're fine with a 60 min mash for the less modified British malts.

aggieactuary said:

I heard that mash temperature matters a lot less than it used to.

I remember hearing Bob Hansen of Briess say that recently. He said that brewers don't get much variation from mashing at different temps anymore. I believe he attributed it to higher diastatic powers if modern malts.

Now, if 60 minutes is overkill for a typical modern malt mash (with 2 row 120-150 degrees Lintner). Then, maybe we're fine with a 60 min mash for the less modified British malts.

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I'm NOT talking about variations in wort characteristics. It's just that at 147 degrees, conversion will take longer than at 158 degrees. When I mash at 156 and up, conversion can happen in 20 minutes. I never checked for conversion earlier, but it could have happened earlier. With a 147-149 degree mash, conversion can take up to 90 minutes but usually occurs within 75 minutes. It's not about the DP, it's about the temperature.

60 minutes may indeed be overkill for a typical modern malt mash. It's probably not at all necessary. If you check for conversion, you may find yourself fully converted in as little as 20 minutes (as I have). That said, it's a safe length of time for a 150+ degree mash without any detrimental effects.

That makes sense.

But for a given temperature, wouldn't DP have an effect on conversion time?

aggieactuary said:

That makes sense.

But for a given temperature, wouldn't DP have an effect on conversion time?

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I can't imagine why it would, if the grist was mostly base malt. If you had a ton of oats, then sure it would. I mash my oatmeal stout for 90 minutes for that reasoon!

I was thinking that since higher diastatic power means a higher % of enzymes, they would be able to do the work quicker all else being equal.

aggieactuary said:

I was thinking that since higher diastatic power means a higher % of enzymes, they would be able to do the work quicker all else being equal.

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Well, that makes sense I guess. But my thought is that "excess" DP is only valuable when you're needing it. I mean, if there are enough enzymes present, more doesn't mean that it'd be faster. Enough is enough, and complete conversion is all that's needed.

Concentration of chemical species has nothing to do with reaction kinetics. Thus, excess diastatic power should not speed up conversion. Now temperature usually has a very pronounced effect on reaction kinetics.

ChemE said:

Concentration of chemical species has nothing to do with reaction kinetics. Thus, excess diastatic power should not speed up conversion. Now temperature usually has a very pronounced effect on reaction kinetics.

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Oh, sure. Say the same thing but in a way that makes you seem smarter!!!!!!!

j/k of course.

That makes sense.

I'm not sure how to articulate this, but it seems to me that there is some relationship between time to complete conversion and the amount of enzymes. Maybe it's only in instances where there are too few enzymes, because I have heard of mashes that have very low levels of enzymes that will take hours to reach conversion.

Think of one guy chopping down trees. Let's say he can chop down one tree an hour. It will take him 100 hours to cut down 100 trees. But if you have 10 guys, they can cut down 100 trees in 10 hours. But once you get over 100 guys you're probably not going to get faster than one hour to cut down the 100 trees.

Now, I don't know if this applies to enzymes working on starches. But that's how I think about it from John Palmer's trees and branches analogy.

aggieactuary said:

That makes sense.

I'm not sure how to articulate this, but it seems to me that there is some relationship between time to complete conversion and the amount of enzymes. Maybe it's only in instances where there are too few enzymes, because I have heard of mashes that have very low levels of enzymes that will take hours to reach conversion.

Think of one guy chopping down trees. Let's say he can chop down one tree an hour. It will take him 100 hours to cut down 100 trees. But if you have 10 guys, they can cut down 100 trees in 10 hours. But once you get over 100 guys you're probably not going to get faster than one hour to cut down the 100 trees.

Now, I don't know if this applies to enzymes working on sugars. But that's how I think about it from John Palmer's trees and branches analogy.

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Yes, I understand what you mean. But excess doesn't mean faster.

In your analogy, say you have 100 guys to cut down 100 trees (enough DP). Having 200 guys won't be faster, if each guy is cutting down his own tree. Does that make sense?

But if you add some oats (trees without their own sawyers), then those extra 100 guys can make short work of the extra trees.

Right. I think we understand each other. More enzymes don't speed up the actual enzymatic reactions, but temperature does speed up (or slow down if cooler) the enzymatic reaction. Too few enzymes can slow down the total conversion time because each enzyme will have to react with more starches to reach conversion, and enzymes can only work on one starch at a time.

Reflecting back on my original question now in our new terms, I was wondering if MO and GP have "enough" DP (more than 100 guys in the analogy) to convert a standard mash in 60 minutes. It sounds like it does.

It sounds like MO and GP have "100 guys" and American 2-Row has "200 guys".

aggieactuary said:

It sounds like MO and GP have "100 guys" and American 2-Row has "200 guys".

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Well, yeah, if you want to get all scientific on me again!