Give me the jist on whirlpooling for hop flavor

BrewSwag 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
HausBrauerei_Harvey

HausBrauerei_Harvey

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
833
Reaction score
285
Location
Golden
I brew mostly belgian ales and german lagers, I have done a few ipas which were pretty good but I am lacking in knowledge for brewing this style.

I wanted to try a whirlpooling hopstand for an IPA this weekend to get lots of hop flavor/aroma without the added IBUs, I know there are probably a billion tips out there if I wanted to use the googles, but I was just hoping someone could summarize the recommended best practice for me.

A buddy in the LHBC said he does a hopstand/whirlpool at 175F for 30 min. Does this mean I don't add the hops until I've gotten the 10 gallons of wort down to 175F with my CFC, or I add them at flame-out then cool to 175 and hold for 30 minutes.
 
People do it different ways. Me personally I pull my hop spider at end of boil, let the wort cool on its own to 175, discard the hops in my spider then put that back in and add my hopstand addition, cover with sanitized foil and I'll let it go 30,45,60 min depending on how much time I have. I'll stir every 20 min maybe or I won't stir at all just depends. I'll usually stop the hopstand when I hit 145 deg or the time whatever hits first. I've also done the same but add in two additions one at 190 deg then the other had at 175. That's pretty much it only difference is some people will chill with their immersion chiller to 175 then add the hops or if they recirculate that's where the whirlpool comes in.
 
Like olotti said, everyone does this differently. The gist of it is that you need to get the temp down below 175 asap to prevent AA isomerization (which causes bitterness) but still be able to extract all the wonderful oils out of the hops. Personally, just before flame out I get my chiller connected to the hoses, then when the timer goes off I turn off the flame, add my hops then turn on the water. I stir it until it gets to about ~185-180 then go run and turn off the hose (takes about 30 seconds!). The thermal "momentum" of water in the chiller will take it down to ~170 easily while im running to get to the hose shut off. Then I just leave it all sit (uncovered for no other reason than im lazy) for ~30 mins or however long I feel like. Sometimes I will stir it a little bit too.
 
Silverfish said:
Like olotti said, everyone does this differently. The gist of it is that you need to get the temp down below 175 asap to prevent AA isomerization (which causes bitterness) but still be able to extract all the wonderful oils out of the hops. Personally, just before flame out I get my chiller connected to the hoses, then when the timer goes off I turn off the flame, add my hops then turn on the water. I stir it until it gets to about ~185-180 then go run and turn off the hose (takes about 30 seconds!). The thermal "momentum" of water in the chiller will take it down to ~170 easily while im running to get to the hose shut off. Then I just leave it all sit (uncovered for no other reason than im lazy) for ~30 mins or however long I feel like. Sometimes I will stir it a little bit too.
Click to expand...

Thanks this gives me some good practical info to use!
 
I use Hop Stands to increase IBUs and Aromas. I do two different Hopstands/Steeps for IPA's. I like the results from both.
 
olotti said:
People do it different ways. Me personally I pull my hop spider at end of boil, let the wort cool on its own to 175, discard the hops in my spider then put that back in and add my hopstand addition, cover with sanitized foil and I'll let it go 30,45,60 min depending on how much time I have. I'll stir every 20 min maybe or I won't stir at all just depends. I'll usually stop the hopstand when I hit 145 deg or the time whatever hits first. I've also done the same but add in two additions one at 190 deg then the other had at 175. That's pretty much it only difference is some people will chill with their immersion chiller to 175 then add the hops or if they recirculate that's where the whirlpool comes in.
Click to expand...

This is REALLY good advise! Well said...

Cheers
Jay
 
I cool to 170, add hops, cover and leave for as long as I can (stirring occasionally). I find 60 minutes provides a lot more than just leaving it 30 minutes.

If you add the hops at flame-out and then quickly cool to 175 F, you will lose a lot of the more volatile oils due to the higher heat.
 
I have done flameout additions and whirlpools around 170, and I have not noticed a massive difference in flavor between the two thus far. Flameout will certainly contribute IBUs, though. I think the best recommendation is to do both a flameout addition and a whirlpool when the wort is cooler, assuming you have the hoppage necessary to do so. You can make IPAs without whirlpools and flameout additions though, but that may be an unpopular opinion right now. I'd say it depends on what you want out of an IPA.
 
filthyastronaut said:
I have done flameout additions and whirlpools around 170, and I have not noticed a massive difference in flavor between the two thus far. Flameout will certainly contribute IBUs, though. I think the best recommendation is to do both a flameout addition and a whirlpool when the wort is cooler, assuming you have the hoppage necessary to do so. You can make IPAs without whirlpools and flameout additions though, but that may be an unpopular opinion right now. I'd say it depends on what you want out of an IPA.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I've only made a few IPAs so far and they were good but I haven't made a 'wow' one yet. I was just looking to try this new technique I have heard makes a big difference.

I brewed yesterday and pulled the bittering and 10 minute additions at flameout, chilled to 175 then added the whirlpool addition and let it ride for 30 minutes. Time will tell how it turns out, it was rocking away at high krausen this morning.
 
nope. but i havent had a single person from my non beer-drinkign grandma to all the HBTers ive sent stuff too complain about anything being bitter

I definitely get it if people dont believe me. But then again, those arent the open minded, adventurous people i'd want to try my beer anyway
 
I used to throw in flameout hops immediately at flameout. (duh!) I was never completely happy with the result. More recently, I acquired an immersion chiller, and after lots of research and reading, here is what I do. First off, I've stopped using 60 minute hop additions. I start with a small 30 min add (often only .5 oz) then load up at 15, 10, and 5 min to achieve my desired IBU level. I put my copper chiller into the boil at 15 min to sterilize. At Flameout I hit the pump on the chiller and quickly drop it under 180 F, turn off the pump, and throw in the whirlpool hops. (usually 2-3 oz) I stir, trying to keep the wort and hops moving for 20-30 minutes - basically as long as I can stand to. Then turn the pump back on and chill to pitching temp as quickly as possible.

I've been completely satisfied (thrilled!) with my results on two recent IPAs. There are tons of juicy hop flavors and aroma, with just the right amount of smooth bitternes to know it's an IPA you're drinking. All these methods are similar, and will make great beer. Whichever you pick will depend on your equipment and what you want from your beer. Good luck!
 
m00ps said:
man, usually its the other way around. I try to be sarcastic and it gets lost in the internet. Then I just look dumb, like now
Click to expand...

haha...I actually took some notes from your article...and I'm pretty much always playing so if I ever offend you I was just kidding... :) Humor makes the world go round!
 
TxBigHops said:
I used to throw in flameout hops immediately at flameout. (duh!) I was never completely happy with the result. More recently, I acquired an immersion chiller, and after lots of research and reading, here is what I do. First off, I've stopped using 60 minute hop additions. I start with a small 30 min add (often only .5 oz) then load up at 15, 10, and 5 min to achieve my desired IBU level. I put my copper chiller into the boil at 15 min to sterilize. At Flameout I hit the pump on the chiller and quickly drop it under 180 F, turn off the pump, and throw in the whirlpool hops. (usually 2-3 oz) I stir, trying to keep the wort and hops moving for 20-30 minutes - basically as long as I can stand to. Then turn the pump back on and chill to pitching temp as quickly as possible.

I've been completely satisfied (thrilled!) with my results on two recent IPAs. There are tons of juicy hop flavors and aroma, with just the right amount of smooth bitternes to know it's an IPA you're drinking. All these methods are similar, and will make great beer. Whichever you pick will depend on your equipment and what you want from your beer. Good luck!
Click to expand...

is that 2-3oz per 5gal batch? I was a bit under that then I did 3oz for a 10 gallon batch. Meh i'll still get beer and learn something from this batch.
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
is that 2-3oz per 5gal batch? I was a bit under that then I did 3oz for a 10 gallon batch. Meh i'll still get beer and learn something from this batch.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that it depends on the kind of hops. I get decent flavor and aroma from 1 oz of Simcoe in 5 gallons. With most other hops it takes more. At least that's my perception. Has anybody else noticed this?
 
Whoa. I still consider myself a noob, and this is why: here's a subject I haven't even HEARD of yet! BOOM! Hop flavor and aroma without bitterness?! Count... me... in!

Quick question: can someone please compare/contrast (how's that do for taking you back to high school?) hopstand additions vs. dry hopping after primary fermentation is complete?

AND, most importantly, I haven't seen any recipes so far that suggest hopstands. I tend to stay away from IPAs because they seem too bitter to me, so that may explain why. BUT, if we're gonna get flavor without bitterness, well then! So, final question, if I'm going to try this with a recipe I know and trust, how much should I use, and in what form (whole? pellet?)

EDIT: I did take the time to read Moop's article (strong work, dude!). However, I'd love to hear any suggestions on how to use hopstands to add that little oomph (to use the technical term from the article!) to my preferred, usually more balanced ales.

Sigh... man, this is why I LOVE this place! There's ALWAYS something new!
:mug:
 
What I haven't fully grasped yet is what if you want to achieve bittering during the whirlpool? I've only done 1 batch like this so far, and all I did was add the hops at flameout and whirpool for 30 min prior to chilling. Like others have said the wort naturally dropped into the 170s during that time without running water thru the chiller.

Tasting the beer, beersmith appears to have estimated the IBUs fairly accurately (I brewed a clone APA recipe and the side by side comparison is very similar bittering). I suppose folks are waiting to add hops until 170 to have tighter control of their final IBU? Given the uncertainty between 212 and 170?
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
is that 2-3oz per 5gal batch? I was a bit under that then I did 3oz for a 10 gallon batch. Meh i'll still get beer and learn something from this batch.
Click to expand...

Yes, I do 5-6 gallon batches. And that 2-3 oz was just a guesstimate. I went back and looked at my lat two recipes and the actual amounts were 2 oz and 1.75 oz. Your 3 oz in a 10 gal batch should be fine. See if you're happy with how it turns out, and if not, bump it higher on the next one.
 
So, when it comes to the length of the whirlpool (20/30/60 minutes), is there a point of diminishing returns?
 
bmbigda said:
What I haven't fully grasped yet is what if you want to achieve bittering during the whirlpool? I've only done 1 batch like this so far, and all I did was add the hops at flameout and whirpool for 30 min prior to chilling. Like others have said the wort naturally dropped into the 170s during that time without running water thru the chiller.

Tasting the beer, beersmith appears to have estimated the IBUs fairly accurately (I brewed a clone APA recipe and the side by side comparison is very similar bittering). I suppose folks are waiting to add hops until 170 to have tighter control of their final IBU? Given the uncertainty between 212 and 170?
Click to expand...

I'm far from a techncal expert here, but it's my understanding that something happens to cause certain hop oils that contribute to aroma to evaporate (or change?) when they're added to the wort above 180 degrees. I've personally been much happier with my beers since I started chilling to below 180 prior to adding flameout/whirlpool/hopstand hops. It is also my understanding that you should get little to no bitterness from whirlpool additions. If you're trying to achieve more bitterness, I would increase your earliest boil addition.
 
TxBigHops said:
It is also my understanding that you should get little to no bitterness from whirlpool additions. If you're trying to achieve more bitterness, I would increase your earliest boil addition.
Click to expand...


Just to pull on that thread - are you saying you can achieve hop bitterness at 212, but not 211, 210, 198, etc etc? In my opinion there must be some kind of non linear tail off in this range. When brewing a high IBU IPA, the bitterness achieved during this time might be negligible.
 
for the beer I just made, if I got 0 bitterness from whirlpool I would have a very sweet beer on my hands. and I don't. I realize I have a laughable sample size of 1 batch
 
bmbigda said:
Just to pull on that thread - are you saying you can achieve hop bitterness at 212, but not 211, 210, 198, etc etc? In my opinion there must be some kind of non linear tail off in this range. When brewing a high IBU IPA, the bitterness achieved during this time might be negligible.
Click to expand...

I'm sure there is some kind of exponential function at play here, as many folks say you can bitter at 212, but the amount of bitterness you get decreases significantly when you add the hops around 180F.

My local brewery (cannonball creek) has a pale which has won a bronze and silver at the GABF, they add all there bittering hops within the last 15 minutes of the boil and i'm sure do some whirlpooling at lower temps as well, that beer is just bursting with hop flavor but does not taste bitter, it's just awesome.
 
alpha acids isomerize into the compounds we perceive as bitterness most efficiently at 212. Time is also a factor, which is why hops added at 60 minutes give way more bitterness than ones added at 30.

Below 212 your efficiency simply tails off. Though there have been some studies on the actual efficiency i havent found a chart (or similiar) that plots the efficiency vs temp. I typically approximate it at 10% though it could be much less. Just like you would need fewer oz to get the same IBU if added at 60 minutes vs 30, you have to add way more at whirlpool if you want to get considerable bitterness from that addition.

The oils in hops have different boil temps, meaning they will boil off above that temp. Though I have read that some will boil off even above 140, i think those are few, so it ends up that most ppl accept 170-180 as ideal. Dry hopping primarily adds aroma, whereas the elevated temps in a whirlpool allow for some taste as well as aroma to be imparted.

Heady and Pliny both use a bittering charge and then all other hops are added in the whirlpool.
 
drainbamage said:
So, when it comes to the length of the whirlpool (20/30/60 minutes), is there a point of diminishing returns?
Click to expand...

Id definitely say so. Depending on how fast your system cools, Im guessing going much past 30min doesnt do too much. But if you are like me and do a 212 and 170 addition, its already been 25-30min by the time it cools to 170 and I want to get whatever I can out of the 170 hops, so I let it go for a while longer.

It lengthens the brew day, but I dont mind. I figure im going through all the trouble, time and money to make this monster IPA, I might as well do the best job I can
 
I add the whirlpool hops at 190 for 30 minutes - it finishes at 180. With a little experimenting, I've found this gives the equivalent utilization of boiling for 10 minutes, and it's pretty consistent. For my calculations, I also add 10 minutes to the other hops added previously, but naturally it has very little impact on hops already boiled for 60 minutes.
 
I have been on a long break (New baby, and life in general) from brewing and recently cleaned all my equipment to brew in the next two weeks. The whirlpool is pretty new to me and I can't wait to try it. When you guys turn off your heat source (Flame or electric) do you guys take out your hops that you previously added and THEN add the whirl pool addition or just add your whirl pool hops WITH the already added hops?
 
Coldies said:
When you guys turn off your heat source (Flame or electric) do you guys take out your hops that you previously added and THEN add the whirl pool addition or just add your whirl pool hops WITH the already added hops?
Click to expand...

I add my hops in loose, so all stay in for the whirlpool. Can't pick up any odd flavor from it - it probably doesn't matter.
 
Coldies said:
I have been on a long break (New baby, and life in general) from brewing and recently cleaned all my equipment to brew in the next two weeks. The whirlpool is pretty new to me and I can't wait to try it. When you guys turn off your heat source (Flame or electric) do you guys take out your hops that you previously added and THEN add the whirl pool addition or just add your whirl pool hops WITH the already added hops?
Click to expand...


haha. I am in the same exact situation. 3 batches since Xmas though! welcome back. everyone is also mashing in giant bags apparently.
 
Again, if I wanted to just "give it a try," with a recipe I already trusted, how much? Drop an ounce in? Half an ounce? Whole or pellet?

Obviously, I'm a bit excited about all this... :ban:
 
bmbigda said:
Just to pull on that thread - are you saying you can achieve hop bitterness at 212, but not 211, 210, 198, etc etc? In my opinion there must be some kind of non linear tail off in this range. When brewing a high IBU IPA, the bitterness achieved during this time might be negligible.
Click to expand...

BeerFst said:
alpha acids isomerize into the compounds we perceive as bitterness most efficiently at 212. Time is also a factor, which is why hops added at 60 minutes give way more bitterness than ones added at 30.

Below 212 your efficiency simply tails off. Though there have been some studies on the actual efficiency i havent found a chart (or similiar) that plots the efficiency vs temp. I typically approximate it at 10% though it could be much less. Just like you would need fewer oz to get the same IBU if added at 60 minutes vs 30, you have to add way more at whirlpool if you want to get considerable bitterness from that addition.

The oils in hops have different boil temps, meaning they will boil off above that temp. Though I have read that some will boil off even above 140, i think those are few, so it ends up that most ppl accept 170-180 as ideal. Dry hopping primarily adds aroma, whereas the elevated temps in a whirlpool allow for some taste as well as aroma to be imparted.

Heady and Pliny both use a bittering charge and then all other hops are added in the whirlpool.
Click to expand...

BeerFst answered your question, but since you asked me, I'll put it another way. The bitterness is not created solely by the temperature, but also by how long you boil the hops. And yes, most of my beers with whirlpool additions already have at least 50 IBUs of boil hops, so adding a few IBU from the whirlpool would not really be noticeable.

bmbigda said:
for the beer I just made, if I got 0 bitterness from whirlpool I would have a very sweet beer on my hands. and I don't. I realize I have a laughable sample size of 1 batch
Click to expand...

Yes, you will still get some bitterness from the whirlpool hops, but it's hard to quantify how much. So for me personally, I use boil hops to achieve the my desired bitterness, and assume no IBUs from whirlpool hops added at below 180 degrees. On this recent beer, are you saying you put no hops at all into the boil and only used whirlpool hops at below 180? It wouldn't necessarily be sweet, as that would be a result of unfermentable sugars, but I wouldn't expect much bitterness.
 
skydiver30960 said:
Again, if I wanted to just "give it a try," with a recipe I already trusted, how much? Drop an ounce in? Half an ounce? Whole or pellet?

Obviously, I'm a bit excited about all this... :ban:
Click to expand...

Do you have a recipe in mind yet? Post it up, and we'll make some suggestions. I would think between 1 and 3 oz of aroma hops in a whirlpool, and roughly the same amount for dry hop would be typical for a 5 gallon batch, although I've seen examples of people using FAR more than that. Just depends how far you want to push the envelope and how much you're willing to spend on hops. I only use pellet hops, but if you want to deal with the mess, I don't see any reason why you can't use whole leaf.
 
Aha, great info! Just what I needed. As far as recipes go, I'm usually a "balanced ales" kind of guy, keeping the IBUs much lower than most of the people in this thread would think was criminal. BUT, that's because I'm not a big fan of the bitterness that I usually get from the higher IBU stuff I make. SO... here we go!
 

Similar threads

olie
How to help hop-cake not "melt" after whirlpool (during knockout)?
Replies
5
Views
734
Broken Crow
Broken Crow
J
Whirlpool questions
Replies
19
Views
2K
Group W
Group W
HM-2
New England IPA "Drenched In [Hop]": Single-Hop Hazy IPA "Framework"
Replies
2
Views
564
HM-2
HM-2
Brooothru
How Should I Submit This Beer Under BJCP Style Guidelines?
Replies
13
Views
2K
Brooothru
Brooothru
N
Dry hop advice on low abv / session NEIPA
Replies
2
Views
720
NickThoR
N

Latest posts

Back
Top