Going Backwards to PM - Help?

After trying an AG batch this past weekend, I realize that I need to learn some of the finer points of putting together recipes and batches in AG (i.e. strike water temps, water volumes, sparge volumes and temps, etc.). So, I bought a smaller 5 gallon Victory cooler to convert to a mash tun to do some partial mash/extract batches. I found a recipe online and put the following process together. I could sure use some input as to the process, water volumes and water temps.

Anchor Liberty Clone:

Ingredients:

4.5 pounds American 2-row
.5 pounds American Caramel 40L
3 pounds light dry extract
1.5 ounces Willamette (60 minutes)
1 ounce Cascade (15 minutes)
1.5 ounce Cascade (flameout)
1.5 ounce Cascade (dry hop for two weeks in secondary)
American Ale Yeast

Procedure:

Heat 6.5 quarts water to 165 F (1.3 qts X 5.0 pounds grain)
Pour water into (cooler) mash tun and stir grain into water thoroughly
Let mash for 30 minutes
Heat 6.5 quarts water to 180 F
After 30 minute mash – Vourloff wort until clear
Drain wort into brew pot
Pour 180 degree water into mash tun, stir and let mash for 10 minutes
Vourloff wort until clear
Drain wort into brew pot
Add 3 pounds light dry extract and bring to a boil
Add 1.5 ounce Willamette hops at 60 minutes
Add 1 ounce Cascade hops at 15 minutes
Add Cascade hops at flameout
Cool wort
Pour into primary fermentor and add water to reach 5 gallons.
Aerate wort
Pitch yeast (made with a starter)
Pray.

Any thoughts?

With respect to figuring out water volumes and temps for AG brewing, John Palmer's book "How to Brew" has simple formulas for figuring those things out. He gives formulas for single temp infusions, multi-rest infusions, decoction mashes, and for various methods of sparging. You could easily work them by hand or put them into a spreadsheet. I don't have first-hand experience, but I believe that software like Pro-Mash and Beersmith can do it for you.

Edit: You wouldn't have to do the calcs every time. Once you get the hang of it, you can wing it pretty confidently.

I would encourage you to stick with AG. I only did three PM batches before going all grain. I had good results with extract+steeped grain, and I have good AG results, but I never really got the hang of PM. I guess I never saw the point of it. If you have a mash tun that works, why not just mash all the grain?

I would see the point of going into a brew with the mindset of PM to be advantageous; especially if you're a newbie like me. You try to get as much grain mashed as you can, but you don't sweat the efficiency so much; just top off with ME until desired OG is reached. Especially nice mindset with the really heavy beers, where a 5 gallon cooler can't get you all the way. But if you have the gear to go AG on a particular batch, I would personally strive to keep it that way...and hold a # or 2 of ME in the closet just in case .

I always put near-boiling water in my tun and adjust to 165F after it sits for 10 minutes, then put in the grain. Same as for AG. After 7 years, PM is still my favorite method. You can do partial boils & cut the brewing time. Or do high gravity ales without 2-3 hour boils.

it's pretty simple all grain.

don't get too complicated right off the bat, work on the mash and sparge procedure. don't over think it

8lbs two row/pale malt
.5-1lb of some medium crystal, depending on how red you want it.

1 oz hops kettle
.5 oz hops same hop at 30 min
.5 oz hops same at 15 min with some irish moss

combine the grains in three gallons water at 168-175 in a igloo cooler, really should be ten gallon cooler... let sit 45-120 minutes.

heat up about six gallons of water to 170ish, batch sparge it into the kettle and boil.

the first few runs are really about testing out how your set up works.

for me i know ten pounds of grain needs to go together with about three gallons of 175 degree water. this hits 150 every time in my tun. i adjust the temp of the strike water depending on what i'm looking for.

i also know batch sparging about seven gallons of water threw the tun gets me my needed amount to get me 5.5-6 gallons of wort after the boil.

I have never done a PM I was going to do it as the logical step from Extract to AG, but it seemed like almost as much work as AG. So I just skipped the middle step. I also have never used brewing software, I just wing it and for the first couple AG brews added about 2 more pounds more than I should have to get the OG I was shooting for because I knew being new at it my efficiency would suck. Once my OGs started going up I had a few batches of really strong brew then cut down on the grain. Many on this forum will probably disagree, but I don't consider homebrewing an exact science. Experimenting is part of the fun.

I hear ya! PM works for lots of people, and that's OK with me :fro: I keep a couple pounds of DME around, too, 'cause you never know.

I just think the best way to learn AG is to do AG. :rockin:

Many on this forum will probably disagree, but I don't consider homebrewing an exact science. Experimenting is part of the fun.

Click to expand...

i don't disagree....

it basically cooking. it is trial and error, it can be quantified, it can be discovered... and it can be an art or a science. there are elements of both aspects in it. there is also the element of the divine in brewing. it's the best of all worlds, and transcends time and space etc etc... imho :fro:

I second the vote for downloading one of the tools. Beersmith will give you close step-by-step instructions for your brewday with temps.

Just keep like 3 pounds of DME on hand and shoot for AG. Test your preboil gravity and use the software to see if you're going to hit your post boil OG. If not, add the correct amount of DME to the boil and you're right on. Just calculate for 70% efficiency and you'll probably never need the DME.

Thanks for all the encouragement fellas. There are two reasons I want to do some PM brews. First, it takes less time and I can be inside with the family while I do all of the mashing and boiling. Two, I can get some confidence down without wasting huge amounts of grains and time. I also have the "safety net" of adding in the extract to get me to the target OG. Plus, I just bought a 5 gallon victory cooler to convert and I wouldnt know what else to use it for My wife suggested putting (gasp) water in it!!!!

Greg

BTW, I also have a 10 gallon Igloo cooler that I converted to a mash tun this weekend. It worked very well, though I will reserve judgement on the final result of my first AG brew.

Greg

I use Beer Tools Pro ($25 at beertools.com) to calculate the water volume, temps, alcohol, IBUs, etc. I've used a lot of different beer recipe tools and Beer Tools is the easiest to use with the best looking GUI, IMO. Makes brewing a peice of cake.

Alright fellas. I have finished my 5 gallon victory cooler mini mash tun ready to go. Anyone have any concerns about my recipe for this weekend? I am looking forward to trying this out in the comfort of the inside of the my house, and I get to play with a new MLT.

Greg

And I know a lot of AG brewers will get upset, but PM's are the best of both worlds. It gives you the flexibility of AG, but shortens the brew day to almost extract time frame. I have done all thre methods and I love the PM best.

SW Brewer said:

Alright fellas. I have finished my 5 gallon victory cooler mini mash tun ready to go. Anyone have any concerns about my recipe for this weekend? I am looking forward to trying this out in the comfort of the inside of the my house, and I get to play with a new MLT.

Greg

Click to expand...

Greg - I think your rationale for wanting to do a few PMs is a good one. PM recipes are much more fool-proof than AG recipes, but the mash process is identical, so it is indeed a confidence builder/safety net. Plus, as a number people here mention, it makes great beer. But I don't think you really save THAT much time doing a PM. Water heats and cools a bit quicker, and run-off times are a bit less, but you are still looking at a 3 - 4 hour brew day. (I know there are ways to still shave, like reducing your boil time, but you could do this with AG too, if you were really desparate.)

Just a note about your recipe, though -- it isn't a very good PM recipe. The only specialty grain is crystal, which doesn't need to be mashed. So I don't understand why there is all that 2-row in there. This should really be an all-extract recipe with a small steep with the crystal.

I suggest practicing a PM where it is really needed, like a cream ale or oatmeal stout where you have adjuncts that require mashing. Or a bitter or some other English ale that has lots of munich or victory malt or some other very characteristic malt that requires mashing and can't be substituted with extract. Honestly, an all-extract version of your recipe would be MUCH easier and probably taste better.

Anyways, just a suggestion. Best of luck with a few PMs, and I hope you find the AG brews less challenging. BTW, you have a GREAT setup there with both 5 gal and 10 gal MLTs. I wish I had done it that way -- very flexible system.

Cheers!

Pirate Ale said:

And I know a lot of AG brewers will get upset, but PM's are the best of both worlds. It gives you the flexibility of AG, but shortens the brew day to almost extract time frame. I have done all thre methods and I love the PM best.

Click to expand...

Why would anyone be upset? Hobbies are for whatever floats your pirateship. After "finding" all grain, using extract takes away my cost savings. I really don't see how PM cuts time off. You have to mash 60 min anyway, why not use a little extra grain while you're at it.

Pirate Ale said:

And I know a lot of AG brewers will get upset, but PM's are the best of both worlds. It gives you the flexibility of AG, but shortens the brew day to almost extract time frame. I have done all thre methods and I love the PM best.

Click to expand...

No one is upset . Do what you love - its still brewing and thats the most important thing.

I consider myself an AG brewer, but I still do extract + steeped grain brews every so often because they are so quick and you can make some great beer. Honestly, none of my AG friends can tell the difference.

Thanls for the thoughts fellas. Regarding my recipe, I already have all the grains and the are mixed together so I cannot separate them. If someone has a better PM IPA recipe I can run to the LHBS at lunch and pick up the ingredients.

Greg

SW Brewer said:

Thanls for the thoughts fellas. Regarding my recipe, I already have all the grains and the are mixed together so I cannot separate them. If someone has a better PM IPA recipe I can run to the LHBS at lunch and pick up the ingredients.

Greg

Click to expand...

Just brew it -- it looks like a tasty recipe, just a lot of unnecessary work. But it will be good practice.

If you go the PM way (which isn't a bad thing.....I'm going to start doing either 2.5 gal AG or 5 gal PM) then you should add your extract at the end of the boil. It's already been boiled once....no reason to do it again


Look up late extract additions

Good luck!